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30 years since the miners' strike


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#21 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:09 PM

And workers bring money into the economy, without them there is nothing.

Er yeah.  Companies are made up of workers, from senior management to cleaners and every person in between.  What's your point?



#22 Phil

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:15 PM

Er yeah.  Companies are made up of workers, from senior management to cleaners and every person in between.  What's your point?

 

 

Senior management aren't workers, they're management, the clue is in the name.

 

Management by edict/coercion/heirarchy is grossly inefficient, it leads to confusion and an alienated workforce. 

 

Read "The inefficiencies of management" by Harvey Liebenstein as a starting point


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#23 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:20 PM

Senior management aren't workers, they're management, the clue is in the name.

 

So management don't get paid for what they do then?



#24 Phil

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:22 PM

So management don't get paid for what they do then?

 

 

I really have to ask if you're playing the bunny


"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#25 Johnoco

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:43 PM

It's an option!

Most employers today are heading back to the Dickensian era with their approach. Asking for more is quite apt in such circumstances.

#26 Trojan

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:50 PM

So management don't get paid for what they do then?

Management get well paid. The pay gap between management and workers in the UK is one of the highest in the developed world.  Thatcher smashing the miners was probably a contributory factor in that outcome.  The Tories were determined on revenge for their perceived defeat at the hands of the miners in 1974.  They squared the police with huge pay rises, and built up coal stocks.  Then laid the trap that Scargill lead his men into.  How do I know this? Afterwards Lawson said that it had been well worth the cost.  The cure for our county's ills was seen as weakening the trades union movement.  We've just had the worst recession since the thirties.  Something not quite right there.


"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#27 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:57 PM

I really have to ask if you're playing the bunny

Not sure what playing the bunny is a euphemism for but I can imagine I suppose.

 

I'm not a socialist and I don't speak using socialist terminology.  To me, everyone who is paid for their job of work is, by default, a worker and all are due what they are worth financially.  For some people it would seem 'the management' is akin to the devil's own spawn but to my eyes that concept, plus the language used, is so outdated that reading some posts is like taking a journey back in time.  Could be back in the 1970s with blackouts and piles of rubbish heaped on the streets. 



#28 Saintslass

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 10:58 PM

Most employers today are heading back to the Dickensian era with their approach. Asking for more is quite apt in such circumstances.

Unlikely.  Unless they want to break laws left, right and centre!


Edited by Saintslass, 13 March 2014 - 10:58 PM.


#29 Phil

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

Unlikely. Unless they want to break laws left, right and centre!


What?
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#30 ckn

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

One thing that makes me have a wry smile is that it's usually the biggest unbroken unions, e.g. lawyers and accountants, that are the ones that tend to be the most vocal about having non-unionised workplaces for those that aren't inside their closed shops.


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#31 Johnoco

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:00 AM

Unlikely. Unless they want to break laws left, right and centre!

I think you need to go and see what is happening in many factories and places of work today. Very few people work 9-5 with a proper dinner break these days, it's mostly horrible shifts, often involving Saturday night or Sunday day as routine. People have to opt out of the working hours agreement because they want a job so it's Hobsons choice.

The thing you notice is that while the management and directors insist that working these shifts is essential for the business, generally, they seem to prefer working Monday-Friday office hours. ....are they not essential to the business?

#32 nadera78

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 08:56 AM

I think you need to go and see what is happening in many factories and places of work today. Very few people work 9-5 with a proper dinner break these days, it's mostly horrible shifts, often involving Saturday night or Sunday day as routine. People have to opt out of the working hours agreement because they want a job so it's Hobsons choice.
The thing you notice is that while the management and directors insist that working these shifts is essential for the business, generally, they seem to prefer working Monday-Friday office hours. ....are they not essential to the business?


The film industry was excluded entirely from the working hours directive, so there isn't even a choice to opt in or out. As stated earlier pay and conditions have deteriorated alarmingly - daily contracts only, virtually compulsory 6 day working, virtually compulsory overtime when needed (at flat rate), the list goes on. The tea break was reduced to 20 minutes but the canteen is a 10 minute walk from the workshop so its not practical, and up until a couple of years ago the small kitchen in the workshop at Pinewood was rat infested. Health and safety is non-existent - men breathing in fibreglass all day when they're supposed to have an oxygen supply, working at height without safety equipment, being forced to work with a certain plaster "because its legal" even though everyone who touched it came up in a rash.

These are all things my granddad and his brothers, then working on the docks, fought to end. All of the gains made have been reversed and there's naff all anyone can do about it. But Saintslass thinks that's okay.
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#33 Trojan

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:07 PM

The Notts miners worked throughout the strike, claiming correctly that they hadn't been balloted.  Thatcher made sure their pits stayed open. I think it's fair to say that without the Notts miners she'd have lost.  They split from their union and the Tories owed them a huge debt of gratitude.  So why did they defecate on them from a great height 7 years later?  That's what you get for getting into bed with the Tories. Even Elizabeth Peacock, former Tory minister said she was ashamed of what her government had done to the miners


Edited by Trojan, 15 March 2014 - 12:42 AM.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#34 Ramite

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:48 PM

. I think it's fair to say that without the Notts miners she'd have lost.

I'm too young to remember this period but really ? I think that this was a battle Scargill could have never won. MT saw what happened to Heath she would have moved mountains and done what ever it took to win.
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