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new structure idea


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#41 The Parksider

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:06 PM

Bit of a contradiction there: What makes you think that Leigh & Doncaster would be the top teams out of the current Championship when Fev have been spending the most? The truth is that money doesn't always talk, just like Batley knocking out Leigh & Fev in last year's play-offs, and the closer the gap in pay differentials the greater the chance of an upset. If we get only one club from the bottom tier earning promotion every year or two it will be a step in the right direction. Of course, it could be more interesting if the top four clubs from the lower tier got an increase in salary cap and were allowed a transfer window before the start of the middle round of 8.

 

I dunno Steve, I've just seen a clapped out Wakefield, easily beaten by Leeds. A bunch of journeymen with no quality young kids rising through the ranks. They're shaping up to be SL also rans, but if they did drop down and collapse I'd be sure that Fev, Batley, Fax. Sheffield. Leigh or Donny would be there picking over the bones. For as Griff asks who is there to buy?

 

I think Griff is spot on with his posts, and for me "earning promotion" will be no more that earning the right to take the place of an SL also ran, and just be another SL also ran. Still that's variety.



#42 The Parksider

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:12 PM

I think whatever the structure more full time teams should be the aim with more competitive games. However, this should be done in the right way rather than clubs going full time for the sake of it before their ready. Clubs should only be allowed to go full time if they can prove they've got the finances/income and if other areas if the club are up to scratch eg development, marketing, attendances etc

 

None of the Championship and a couple of SL clubs have the finances, or the income.

 

Only the top SL clubs have the development, attendances are dropping, and "marketing" means nothing unless it is effective - and as I say attendances are dropping.

 

Nobody is interested in the relegation battle. Crowds are well down for the three victims, so it's a lovely thought that clubs can step forward "ready" for Superleague.

 

But it's just a thought unless you can put a name to a face?



#43 Griff

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:20 AM

I think the most that you can expect from the much-vaunted relegation battle is a thousand or so on the gates at the last few games when the chips are down.

 

Sadly, it won't go far towards the losses these clubs will have suffered between February and mid-August.


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#44 The Parksider

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:47 AM

I think the most that you can expect from the much-vaunted relegation battle is a thousand or so on the gates at the last few games when the chips are down.

 

Sadly, it won't go far towards the losses these clubs will have suffered between February and mid-August.

 

Where from? The gates are a thousand or so down on average across all the bottom clubs.

 

Now the "clear blue water" is starting to form between London, Bradford, Wakey and the rest do you think any of their crowds are going to go up Griff??

 

Posters have already pointed to Bradford.v.Wakefield being the likely crunch game which if it happens will be in line with previous P & R seasons when we had the odd game with a bigger crowd.

 

But it won't be bigger unless Bulls have pulled back some points and to be bigger it would have to beat last years 10,400. Griff you've gone all optomistic on me!


Edited by The Parksider, 12 April 2014 - 09:50 AM.


#45 Steve Slater

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:46 AM

I dunno Steve, I've just seen a clapped out Wakefield, easily beaten by Leeds. A bunch of journeymen with no quality young kids rising through the ranks. They're shaping up to be SL also rans, but if they did drop down and collapse I'd be sure that Fev, Batley, Fax. Sheffield. Leigh or Donny would be there picking over the bones. For as Griff asks who is there to buy?

 

I think Griff is spot on with his posts, and for me "earning promotion" will be no more that earning the right to take the place of an SL also ran, and just be another SL also ran. Still that's variety.

I don't what what the answer is though Parky? Even the optimists must agree that the game will not grow outside its traditional boundaries without the truly super clubs giving such as London an increased salary cap and a bigger slice of the Sky money at their own expense.

The best alternative is to hold on to what we have, and we have to find a way of giving the top Championship clubs something to aspire to. Fev would be the sensible choice for a SL franchise, but it would sit uneasy with me and many others for them to gain entry this way. Yet turning it down could reverse the trend of growth that has been building up steadily over the years. Something for all top Championship clubs to dream about is a much better alternative, and would help to bring in the crowds.

Regarding who would there be to buy? I can remember the time Wally Lewis came to Wakefield on a short term contract. Maybe one or two NRL stars might fancy a short break if their parent club were unlikely to make their play-offs. I know Wally didn't save Trinity from relegation, but it certainly raised their profile at the time, and I and many others went to watch him as a neutral. 


Edited by Steve Slater, 13 April 2014 - 11:48 AM.


#46 The Parksider

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:38 PM

I don't what what the answer is though Parky? Even the optimists must agree that the game will not grow outside its traditional boundaries without the truly super clubs giving such as London an increased salary cap and a bigger slice of the Sky money at their own expense.The best alternative is to hold on to what we have, and we have to find a way of giving the top Championship clubs something to aspire to.

 

I found Schofield's "no room at the top" article depressing. Leeds, Wigan and Saints pretty much dominating ad nauseum. Rich men the answer? Well Moran and Davey have spent a heck of a lot to get not sure where. Not sure Koukash can break the mould either. City clubs at Hull, Bradford and Wakey have disappointed big time recently. Ah well.....

 

New structure and new money announced yet relegation crowds are down over 1,000 a match. Is the key giving championship clubs something to aspire to? I'll enjoy Fev, Leigh and Fax battling to replace useless SL clubs but I don't expect them to do any better once they get there. They'll hit the same buffers most SL clubs hit.



#47 Griff

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

I don't what what the answer is though Parky?

 

You must have noticed that there are less pubs than there used to be, Steve ?  Sharlston now has a new chemist and one less pub, Ponte Carlo has estate agents and vets operating out of former pubs .... you must have seen a few more.

 

What happens when people don't use facilities is they close down.  The fact is - a few enthusiasts are keeping a lot of RL clubs open.  Fact.


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#48 Steve Slater

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:32 PM

I found Schofield's "no room at the top" article depressing. Leeds, Wigan and Saints pretty much dominating ad nauseum. Rich men the answer? Well Moran and Davey have spent a heck of a lot to get not sure where. Not sure Koukash can break the mould either. City clubs at Hull, Bradford and Wakey have disappointed big time recently. Ah well.....

 

New structure and new money announced yet relegation crowds are down over 1,000 a match. Is the key giving championship clubs something to aspire to? I'll enjoy Fev, Leigh and Fax battling to replace useless SL clubs but I don't expect them to do any better once they get there. They'll hit the same buffers most SL clubs hit.

I don't think anyone would expect them to do any better, but would they do any worse? It's certainly better than these aspiring clubs losing interest and kids stopping playing the game in these areas. I also feel that the proposed structure would give some relegated clubs a springboard to turn themselves around and come back up much stronger than when they were spending year upon year in Super League mediocrity.



#49 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:47 AM

1. I don't think anyone would expect them to do any better, but would they do any worse?

 

2. It's certainly better than these aspiring clubs losing interest and kids stopping playing the game in these areas.

 

3. I also feel that the proposed structure would give some relegated clubs a springboard to turn themselves around and come back up much stronger than when they were spending year upon year in Super League mediocrity.

 

1. I don't think they'd do any worse than the shambles the bottom 3 SL clubs are in Steve, no. So maybe that's why P & R is back (it's certainly not for bigger crowds as per the totally unfounded KPMG claim already discredited by the facts) because protecting clubs from relegation to enable them to "grow" actually did not work. It's fair enough we have P & R back.

 

2. From my research not that many kids play the game in Championship areas anyway. Sure if Featherstone Rovers or Leigh got a sustained run in Superleague more kids could be interested in playing but bear the following in mind:-

 

a. Steve Gill's Castleford have been a superleague side for what? 16 out of 18 seasons now? Steve says less kids are playing RL in Castleford so you have no guarantee a struggling SL club will stimulate fan and player growth.

 

And that runs full circle back to Ralph Rimmer assertion in 2006 that having a decent run of seasons in Superleague would allow a club to develop the player and fan base. It did not happen for the bottom clubs so we cannot have it both ways. We cannot deride the failure of SL clubs who did not grow fans and players then predict championship clubs taking their place will buck the trend and..........

 

b. If being in the championship loses fans and players just how many fans and how many kids does the game stand to lose in Bradford if they don't come back after a relegation??  

 

3. With respoect your perpetuating the myth that getting relegated allows a club to "come back stronger". there is no evidence at all for this and again you are saying that going down means a clubs gets less interest from fans watching and kids playing, yet you tell me that is a springboard to coming back stronger.

 

I've heard it 1,000 times Steve and posted 1,000 times asking people to give me good reason why this should be so?

All I then get is derision for another 1,000 posts saying the same thing because I never get an answer. Oddly it comes from championship fans who want to argue SL clubs down. "Relegation will be good for them".  Why????


Edited by The Parksider, 16 April 2014 - 07:48 AM.


#50 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:59 AM

You must have noticed that there are less pubs than there used to be, Steve ?  Sharlston now has a new chemist and one less pub, Ponte Carlo has estate agents and vets operating out of former pubs .... you must have seen a few more.

 

What happens when people don't use facilities is they close down.  The fact is - a few enthusiasts are keeping a lot of RL clubs open.  Fact.

 

The distribution of new SKY money has also preserved the past. At the risk of saying the same thing again (which we all do really) the success we do have in fan and player growth comes from the Elite (not SL) clubs and there aren't enough of them.

 

Bigger clubs based on wider populations may not be the answer, but it's the only logical radical plan I can see to remove the current malaise, and if big clubs preserve the TV contracts which in turn preserve the game it's less of a risk than people think.

 

A number of the big games in SL this year are 1,000 down on last years crowds as well as all the bottom of the table relegation zone crowds. The SKY money papers those cracks, and for the lack of player development I note Koukash has nobody left to buy, until he gets the chance to offer other clubs players more money, so he now wants to employ an Aussie guru to "unearth" missed antipodean talent.



#51 keighley

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:05 PM

Where from? The gates are a thousand or so down on average across all the bottom clubs.

 

Now the "clear blue water" is starting to form between London, Bradford, Wakey and the rest do you think any of their crowds are going to go up Griff??

 

Posters have already pointed to Bradford.v.Wakefield being the likely crunch game which if it happens will be in line with previous P & R seasons when we had the odd game with a bigger crowd.

 

But it won't be bigger unless Bulls have pulled back some points and to be bigger it would have to beat last years 10,400. Griff you've gone all optomistic on me!

 

Somebody needs to counter your views. You are PESSIMISM personified.



#52 keighley

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

1. I don't think they'd do any worse than the shambles the bottom 3 SL clubs are in Steve, no. So maybe that's why P & R is back (it's certainly not for bigger crowds as per the totally unfounded KPMG claim already discredited by the facts) because protecting clubs from relegation to enable them to "grow" actually did not work. It's fair enough we have P & R back.

 

2. From my research not that many kids play the game in Championship areas anyway. Sure if Featherstone Rovers or Leigh got a sustained run in Superleague more kids could be interested in playing but bear the following in mind:-

 

a. Steve Gill's Castleford have been a superleague side for what? 16 out of 18 seasons now? Steve says less kids are playing RL in Castleford so you have no guarantee a struggling SL club will stimulate fan and player growth.

 

And that runs full circle back to Ralph Rimmer assertion in 2006 that having a decent run of seasons in Superleague would allow a club to develop the player and fan base. It did not happen for the bottom clubs so we cannot have it both ways. We cannot deride the failure of SL clubs who did not grow fans and players then predict championship clubs taking their place will buck the trend and..........

 

b. If being in the championship loses fans and players just how many fans and how many kids does the game stand to lose in Bradford if they don't come back after a relegation??  

 

3. With respoect your perpetuating the myth that getting relegated allows a club to "come back stronger". there is no evidence at all for this and again you are saying that going down means a clubs gets less interest from fans watching and kids playing, yet you tell me that is a springboard to coming back stronger.

 

I've heard it 1,000 times Steve and posted 1,000 times asking people to give me good reason why this should be so?

All I then get is derision for another 1,000 posts saying the same thing because I never get an answer. Oddly it comes from championship fans who want to argue SL clubs down. "Relegation will be good for them".  Why????

 

With regards to pint 3. Both Castleford and Huddersfield came back stronger after relegation. Past performance is no predictor of future results either way.



#53 keighley

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

The distribution of new SKY money has also preserved the past. At the risk of saying the same thing again (which we all do really) the success we do have in fan and player growth comes from the Elite (not SL) clubs and there aren't enough of them.

 

Bigger clubs based on wider populations may not be the answer, but it's the only logical radical plan I can see to remove the current malaise, and if big clubs preserve the TV contracts which in turn preserve the game it's less of a risk than people think.

 

A number of the big games in SL this year are 1,000 down on last years crowds as well as all the bottom of the table relegation zone crowds. The SKY money papers those cracks, and for the lack of player development I note Koukash has nobody left to buy, until he gets the chance to offer other clubs players more money, so he now wants to employ an Aussie guru to "unearth" missed antipodean talent.

 

On the other hand crowds at potential promotion contenders like Leigh and Fev and some other Championship clubs are up so swings and roundabouts.



#54 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:50 PM

With regards to point 3. Both Castleford and Huddersfield came back stronger after relegation. Past performance is no predictor of future results either way.

 

Castleford got relegated a second time and did not come back stronger. They relied heavily on Mr. Fulton's monetary input. they are not in any way an example of a club benefitting from relegation.


Edited by The Parksider, 17 April 2014 - 04:06 PM.


#55 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:51 PM

Huddersfield came back stronger after relegation.

 

Huddersfield were not strengthened by relegation they were strengthened by Davey's money.



#56 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:53 PM

On the other hand crowds at potential promotion contenders like Leigh and Fev and some other Championship clubs are up so swings and roundabouts.

 

The SL crowd drops are extensive and run into four figures. The CC crowds that are up are only a few and are up only in the hundreds so that is not swings and roundabouts in any way.

 

No need to reply thank you.


Edited by The Parksider, 17 April 2014 - 04:07 PM.


#57 Griff

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:29 PM

Somebody needs to counter your views. You are PESSIMISM personified.

 

Will that somebody be you, keighley ?


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