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#1 RSN

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:03 PM

With Cas and Widnes doing well this season one of the reasons I think they are doing well is because of how well coached they are. They are disciplined, each player knows their role within their sides and execute everything crisply and efficiently. This is all down to good coaching and nothing else. They do not have any real stand out players or international class players in my opinion. You could probably make cases for Joe Mellor and Michael Shenton on this season's form but many of the players within the sides aren't exactly spectacular.

My question is how much impact on a side can a good coach have and how much affect can a bad one have. Apart from Wigan, Wire, Leeds, Saints and Huddersfield every other side seem to have real flaws in their side which could definitely be worked on. Cas and Widnes are probably not going to trouble the sides stated above (they just do not have the quality no matter how good the coaching to compete consistently) on a regular basis. Cas and Widnes look extremely well coached and they are winning games.

How much of an affect can a coach have or is he limited depending on the players he has?

#2 Marty Funkhouser

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:22 PM

With Cas and Widnes doing well this season one of the reasons I think they are doing well is because of how well coached they are. They are disciplined, each player knows their role within their sides and execute everything crisply and efficiently. This is all down to good coaching and nothing else. They do not have any real stand out players or international class players in my opinion. You could probably make cases for Joe Mellor and Michael Shenton on this season's form but many of the players within the sides aren't exactly spectacular.

My question is how much impact on a side can a good coach have and how much affect can a bad one have. Apart from Wigan, Wire, Leeds, Saints and Huddersfield every other side seem to have real flaws in their side which could definitely be worked on. Cas and Widnes are probably not going to trouble the sides stated above (they just do not have the quality no matter how good the coaching to compete consistently) on a regular basis. Cas and Widnes look extremely well coached and they are winning games.

How much of an affect can a coach have or is he limited depending on the players he has?

 

You have not seen Daryl Clark play then...



#3 RSN

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:42 PM

You have not seen Daryl Clark play then...


Forgot about him to be fair, he's still got 3 better Hookers than him in the competition though.

#4 BenGilesRL

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:36 PM

Why do people always have to pick holes or be sarcy? I think this is an interesting sentiment for a topic and it's also great they are British coaches too.

Maybe the next poster would like to pull the post up on grammar next? Or will they be brave and talk about the topic raised without worrying about ridicule?

It's bad enough in general conversation but sometimes this happens when there's a new person to the forum posting their first subject and they get ripped to shreds.

Personally I think it's unnecessary and poor form whether the poster is old or new.

Sorry. Just had to vent.

#5 BenGilesRL

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:38 PM

This might even be the wrong instance to raise it if these two know each other or something - but its something I've thought for a while and is definitely detrimental to the forum.

Maybe I'm just tired.

Edited by BenGilesRL, 27 March 2014 - 11:40 PM.


#6 RSN

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:47 PM

I don't know him personally nor is it a joke. If he wants to make a point of something which wasn't the main focus of the OP then that's upto him.

I'm just genuinely curious I have no experience in coaching or anything like that. Especially with Powell who seems to have done it with Fev and Cas (I thought other Champ sides had better players than Fev) where he has gotten a lot more out of players and won more games than they should on paper.

Is this due to a coach or is there other factors. Is there anything a coach can do if players just aren't physically and skillfully good enough to play at a certain level.

I think people should look at Betts and Powell as an example of how to get the basics right and build a team. Is it possible to do it with any set of players though?

#7 Gates1

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 11:55 PM

Forgot about him to be fair, he's still got 3 better Hookers than him in the competition though.

3 Really? Be interesting to see england squad later in year, but id go Roby and Clark presently.

I note Chase tweeted early that Clarky should be featuring for England later in the year, hes played with and against all the Hookers in question at some point, except Houghton maybe.

Edited by Gates1, 28 March 2014 - 12:23 AM.


#8 Gates1

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 12:12 AM

Cas coaching set up as a whole is key I think. Powell, Orr and Sheridan - all former half backs have almost doubled cas's points per game despite losing one of the comps best half backs. Attack just looks crisp, well timed and a lot of players in motion, all with purpose.

Guess you would expect this from a team coached by three halfs. But the defence has also improved dramatically. I remember been told Sheridan did alot of defensive work and this improvement certainly coincides with his arrival (more so than powells).

I also think some of its about having the right playing staff at the club a good mix of flair/experience/youth and a core of players with a real affinity with the club. I think this is by design, Powells a thinker, ultimately I think was happy to see Chase go, he had a plan and has recruited players accordingly with very specific roles in mind retaining Chase would have inhibuted this.

I dont think you can do this with any set of players, but a good coach can identify less fancied players to perform the required roles and get the best out of them. However, Cas are very reliant on Clarke, Huby and Lynch, I suspect looking at how we play when lacking two of the three will be a good player/coach indicator.


Edited by Gates1, 28 March 2014 - 01:10 PM.


#9 ehbandit

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 07:04 AM

have you noticed cas are better without chase? I think this could be a big reason why they are better

#10 LordCharles

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:25 AM

I think both Cas and Widnes are superb examples of what a quality coach can instill within a team. Good structures, discipline and hard work from a group is far more valueable than having a team full of superstars. Players that buy in to a coaches philosophy based around that ethos will always progress as a group and be hard to beat for any team irrespective of the quality the opposition might have within its ranks if they are not on it 100%. People often see results and say how have they beaten them.......its simple.....on the day they applied themselves just like cas and Widnes are doing right now in SL.

#11 LordCharles

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:27 AM

have you noticed cas are better without chase? I think this could be a big reason why they are better


Key factor is the emphasis on a team sharing a workload and not looking to any one individual.

#12 central park

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 10:10 AM

Is it a coincidence that both of the coaches mentioned actually learned there trade on the dark side ?

 



#13 latchford albion

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:30 PM

Is it a coincidence that both of the coaches mentioned actually learned there trade on the dark side ?

 In an official RFU publication written by Simon Worsnop, who learned his trade in RL I believe, acknowledgments go to Gary Hetherington, Mick Cook, Gary Greinke, Phil Larder, John Kear, Steve Deakin, Jackie Sheldon, Peter Roe, Ian Fairhurst, Andy Kelly, Richard Agar, Malcolm Reilly, Martin Hall, Matt Calland, David Waite, Brian Noble, Graham Steadman and Paul Cullen.  Is that a coincidence?



#14 callig

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:45 AM

Very interesting article in the Guardian about the elite Association Football coaching course.  A few paragraphs about Tony Smith who is a guest speaker on the course.

 

http://www.theguardi...ark-coaching-fa

 

I would be interested to know the cost and duration of the RFL's elite coaching qualification (I think it is the level 3 course but maybe wrong) and how that compared to other codes and the NRL.  Are Powell and Betts on the RFL course?



#15 OMEGA

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:47 AM

Forgot about him to be fair, he's still got 3 better Hookers than him in the competition though.


I'm not sure about that, who are the three?

James Roby is a given but Clarke only lacks the experience of Roby

Who's the other two

#16 OMEGA

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:00 AM

Cas are a much better team with Powell in charge, his man management is superb, he's done his time learning his job and knows his own strengths, most of all he's got respect flowing both ways.

By coincidence Powell took over just as Chase was on his way, so the easy conclusion to jump to is that it's the removal of Chase that's made the difference. The truth is that turning Cas into an efficient team without Chase was a very difficult transition to manage and Powell has done it exceedingly well.

A couple of positives which will have helped Powell, one is the money freed up by Chase's wages coming off the books allowing Powell to recruit the players that were needed to make Cas functional as a team.
The second is that Cas were at a very very low point when he took over from Millward, the only way was up but that's not taking anything away from Powell who still had to put the work in and make the right decisions.

#17 latchford albion

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:09 AM

Very interesting article in the Guardian about the elite Association Football coaching course.  A few paragraphs about Tony Smith who is a guest speaker on the course.

 

http://www.theguardi...ark-coaching-fa

 

I would be interested to know the cost and duration of the RFL's elite coaching qualification (I think it is the level 3 course but maybe wrong) and how that compared to other codes and the NRL.  Are Powell and Betts on the RFL course?

Very interesting article that.  Thanks.

 

There is a level 4 coaching qualification in rugby league - and Denis Betts has this; it costs £3,125.  I may be wrong, but I think that all sports governing bodies re-organised their coaching qualifications in the 1990s in line with the recommendations of the National Coaching Federation.  I know that UK Athletics, went from a three tier to a four tier system at this time because I was promoted to level 3 from level 2 without even having to do any extra work.

 

Anyway, here are a couple of links that should answer your questions

 

 

http://therfl.co.uk/...es/course_costs

 

http://therfl.co.uk/...courses/level_4



#18 OMEGA

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:42 AM

Level 3 is around £1,000
Level 4 is around £3,500

UKCC now govern the major coaching qualifications for most sports and offer some uniformity of standard

#19 Marty Funkhouser

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 10:23 AM

This might even be the wrong instance to raise it if these two know each other or something - but its something I've thought for a while and is definitely detrimental to the forum.

Maybe I'm just tired.

 

Sorry for upsetting you Ben, the OP had, in framing his main question, said that these teams "do not have any real stand out players", i was merely taking issue with this in a small, brief to the point way as the statement is probably a little unfair to some players striving to make themselves a good career..

 

With regards the main question, i would say without doubt that yes, both these teams are an excellent example of good coaching making a team greater than the sum of its parts, which is what a lot of coaching should be about..i just wish more coaches of this ilk were given a chance. I wish my club had taken a chance on Powell in particular.



#20 callig

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 03:08 PM

Very interesting article that.  Thanks.

 

There is a level 4 coaching qualification in rugby league - and Denis Betts has this; it costs £3,125.  I may be wrong, but I think that all sports governing bodies re-organised their coaching qualifications in the 1990s in line with the recommendations of the National Coaching Federation.  I know that UK Athletics, went from a three tier to a four tier system at this time because I was promoted to level 3 from level 2 without even having to do any extra work.

 

Anyway, here are a couple of links that should answer your questions

 

 

http://therfl.co.uk/...es/course_costs

 

http://therfl.co.uk/...courses/level_4

 

Thanks for the links.  For a post graduate qualification I think the cost is very reasonable, also the FA course, which is why I asked.  The journalist thought it was a lot of money but comparing it to the cost of other post graduate qualifications I am aware of it is a very worthwhile investment.