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Never forget that England is, at heart, a progressive nation


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122 replies to this topic

#101 gingerjon

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:10 AM

Actually, if being an "annoying nutter" causes a 'breach of the peace' or even risks such, you can be arrested. Being arrested does not necessarily mean 'commited a criminal offence' or necessitate 'being charged'.


Northern Sol would prefer the police not to investigate breaches of the peace.
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#102 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:31 AM

Northern Sol would prefer the police not to investigate breaches of the peace.

They didn't do any investigating. If anything, they arrested the victim. I'd rather that they did nothing than made wrongful arrests, I'm surprised that you don't share this view.



#103 gingerjon

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:35 AM

They didn't do any investigating. If anything, they arrested the victim. I'd rather that they did nothing than made wrongful arrests, I'm surprised that you don't share this view.

 

I'm pleased to see they took the complaint seriously, disappointed it was a false accusation, angry the man was detained in such ridiculous fashion, happy that he has reasonably quickly received an apology and decent compensation.

 

It's another failure by the police but it seems to have been resolved remarkably fairly.


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#104 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 08:40 AM

I'm pleased to see they took the complaint seriously, disappointed it was a false accusation, angry the man was detained in such ridiculous fashion, happy that he has reasonably quickly received an apology and decent compensation.

 

It's another failure by the police but it seems to have been resolved remarkably fairly.

The failure seems to be the result of a set of assumptions that Christian preacher = bigot; gay teenagers = victims. That's the underlying problem. 



#105 gingerjon

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:19 AM

The failure seems to be the result of a set of assumptions that Christian preacher = bigot; gay teenagers = victims. That's the underlying problem.


The police should ignore complaints if they are about street preachers? They should ignore them if they are made by gay teenagers?
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#106 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:32 AM

I think there is a middle way between "ignore" and "lock up the alleged offender without bothering to check the facts".



#107 Bob8

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:57 AM

I was contesting your suggestion that in receiving compensation he was fairly treated.  He could not have been fairly treated otherwise he would not have received compensation.

If you mean, was he treated fairly in being locked up, presumably no, as he was compensated.

If you mean, was he treated fairly in being compensated, I am assuming yes, as he was locked up.

 

Please, help me with the bit where I suggested that he was fairly treated by being locked up.  I look over my posts and was writing about the opposite.


Edited by Bob8, 06 April 2014 - 09:58 AM.

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#108 gingerjon

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:53 AM

I think there is a middle way between "ignore" and "lock up the alleged offender without bothering to check the facts".


This would be why he has received an apology and compensation.
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#109 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:54 AM

I am proud that the UK is a progressive nation and I certainly include Gay marriage in this. I'm certain that within a generation this will be a none issue and rarely ever mentioned.

 

There is a difficult issue around the treatment of the opponents of progressive society and those that are opponents certainly feel victimised. However, it's not a black and white issue.

 

We pretty much would all agree that not all opinions should be respected. As a society we don't respect racist opinions; we don't respect the opinions of suppressors of women either. People that hold these opinions could also feel victimised for having their view but I'm not sure many people would feel that this means that they are facing genuine oppression because people are intolerant of their intolerance.

 

These are obviously extreme examples. However, in 2014 as a society we don't respect homophobia anymore either. Now I'm not saying that all opposition to Gay marriage is homophobia, at least knowingly. I personally think though, that a large majority of it does come down to what is essentially a form of homophobia. I've had many a debate (including with saintslass) and I've yet to hear a real argument against it that isn't basically a pedantic semantic or historical argument that ignores the reality of modern marriage, where we already have a mix of religious and non-religious weddings. If it is just a semantic argument then why is there the vehemence against it? Jesus was far more clearly against divorce yet we don't see swathes of people signing petitions to see this repealed. If the Pope decided that divorce was allowed I suspect most Catholics would just accept it without little more than grumbling. Whether they like to admit it or not, I suspect that a large majority of anti-gay marriage advocates still see something wrong with being gay and this is what is largely behind this opposition. They might not hate gay people or individuals but I suspect they wouldn't feel comfortable if more people started becoming gay. This is why I'd still call it homophobia.

 

I have sympathy for many of these people because I don't think they are at all bad people. Their views are just outdated and based on flawed religious traditions. The clash comes from the fact that the days when religious people can tell non-religious people what to do are over. Progressive society is basically about allowing people to do as they please as long as it doesn't cause harm to others, it is about giving everybody equality of opportunity and not being discriminated against because of something they were born with. Too often religious society has been about imposing their beliefs and prejudices on the rest of the population even those that don't accept their beliefs. Allowing something that religious people find distasteful  even though it does not directly affect them is not the same thing.

 

This reflects the way modern society is; religious people's rights to practise their religion as they want are not restricted it is just their ability to impose this on others. They can also hold whatever opinion they want, they just cannot expect everybody to automatically respect it anymore.



#110 Grollo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:41 PM

I am proud that the UK is a progressive nation and I certainly include Gay marriage in this. I'm certain that within a generation this will be a none issue and rarely ever mentioned.

 

There is a difficult issue around the treatment of the opponents of progressive society and those that are opponents certainly feel victimised. However, it's not a black and white issue.

 

We pretty much would all agree that not all opinions should be respected. As a society we don't respect racist opinions; we don't respect the opinions of suppressors of women either. People that hold these opinions could also feel victimised for having their view but I'm not sure many people would feel that this means that they are facing genuine oppression because people are intolerant of their intolerance.

 

These are obviously extreme examples. However, in 2014 as a society we don't respect homophobia anymore either. Now I'm not saying that all opposition to Gay marriage is homophobia, at least knowingly. I personally think though, that a large majority of it does come down to what is essentially a form of homophobia. I've had many a debate (including with saintslass) and I've yet to hear a real argument against it that isn't basically a pedantic semantic or historical argument that ignores the reality of modern marriage, where we already have a mix of religious and non-religious weddings. If it is just a semantic argument then why is there the vehemence against it? Jesus was far more clearly against divorce yet we don't see swathes of people signing petitions to see this repealed. If the Pope decided that divorce was allowed I suspect most Catholics would just accept it without little more than grumbling. Whether they like to admit it or not, I suspect that a large majority of anti-gay marriage advocates still see something wrong with being gay and this is what is largely behind this opposition. They might not hate gay people or individuals but I suspect they wouldn't feel comfortable if more people started becoming gay. This is why I'd still call it homophobia.

 

I have sympathy for many of these people because I don't think they are at all bad people. Their views are just outdated and based on flawed religious traditions. The clash comes from the fact that the days when religious people can tell non-religious people what to do are over. Progressive society is basically about allowing people to do as they please as long as it doesn't cause harm to others, it is about giving everybody equality of opportunity and not being discriminated against because of something they were born with. Too often religious society has been about imposing their beliefs and prejudices on the rest of the population even those that don't accept their beliefs. Allowing something that religious people find distasteful  even though it does not directly affect them is not the same thing.

 

This reflects the way modern society is; religious people's rights to practise their religion as they want are not restricted it is just their ability to impose this on others. They can also hold whatever opinion they want, they just cannot expect everybody to automatically respect it anymore.

Whatever the UK has become is not because you brought it into being, so why be proud of something you had no control over - or are you going to claim you had some supernatural power that included your birthright? Are you also proud of other things you didn't achieve?


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

#111 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:01 PM

Whatever the UK has become is not because you brought it into being, so why be proud of something you had no control over - or are you going to claim you had some supernatural power that included your birthright? Are you also proud of other things you didn't achieve?

 

Seriously, give over. 



#112 Grollo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:15 PM

Seriously, give over. 

Seriously, stop aping others, stop following the crowd. Think for yourself.


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

#113 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:38 PM

Seriously, stop aping others, stop following the crowd. Think for yourself.

 

What exactly is thinking for myself, does it include agreeing with you by any chance?

 

Why don't you provide an argument then, rather than being a useless pedant. Or is it a hobby of yours to go around criticising people for using the word 'proud' when they say they are proud of their country, town or even rugby team. After all how could anybody be proud of their rugby team when they haven't actually done anything to contribute to it. 



#114 Northern Sol

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:45 AM

This would be why he has received an apology and compensation.

I agree but you seem to sweep the bigger picture under the carpet. The Birmingham Six, no doubt, were given apologies and cash but it didn't end there. The way that the police operated was looked into and various wrongs were put right.

 

Now I'm certainly not saying that this guy's treatment comes anywhere close to theirs but this case should make people stop and think a little at the very least. The fact that an apology and cash was produced doesn't mean that there isn't a bigger issue surrounding our treatment of religious conservatives.



#115 Grollo

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 02:52 PM

What exactly is thinking for myself, does it include agreeing with you by any chance?

 

Why don't you provide an argument then, rather than being a useless pedant. Or is it a hobby of yours to go around criticising people for using the word 'proud' when they say they are proud of their country, town or even rugby team. After all how could anybody be proud of their rugby team when they haven't actually done anything to contribute to it. 

Oh dear, you're getting a little tectchy for some reason.

What is more useless than declaring one's pride in one's country? Or pride in the fact you might have freckles? There is nothing pedantic about it. Pride is lazy thinking.


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

#116 Bob8

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:06 PM

The world will be a worse place if you cannot be proud of other people.  It is normal and healthy.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

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#117 Johnoco

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

Better tell the Gay Pride mob to stop it asap.

#118 Grollo

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:15 PM

The world will be a worse place if you cannot be proud of other people.  It is normal and healthy.

I think you mistake pride for love. Fancy you not noticing that.


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

#119 Grollo

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:17 PM

Better tell the Gay Pride mob to stop it asap.

What a strange retort. Are you feeling unwell?


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.

#120 Grollo

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 03:18 PM

Better tell the Gay Pride mob to stop it asap.

I bet you're good in a mob.


What you are aware of you are in control of; what you are not aware of is in control of you.




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