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Wigan Investing in Welsh Rugby League

Subsidising Youth Coaching

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#41 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:48 PM

The junior game took off on the back of Celtic Crusaders whom many on here wanted to see the back of.

 

Wigan are trying to rescue it.

Again your recollection is somewhat skewed.

 

Others argued that Crusaders were being rushed into SL and would inevitably collapse and leave grassroots rugby in the local area in a mess. Which is exactly what happened.

 

You choose to pretend that evil flatties were conspiring to bring Welsh rugby down because it suits your interests to do so. The reality in 99% of cases was that the so-called flatties cared a lot more about expansion than you do and wanted a sustainable side.



#42 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

Yet now you are playing the "Broncos demise will lead to the death of London junior rugby" with a similar lack of awareness.

 

Yes it will. If you want to live in a fantasy world where 15/16 year olds will move 200 miles up north and away from their families for the chance to potentially play RL, then go ahead. 



#43 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:55 PM

Yes it will. If you want to live in a fantasy world where 15/16 year olds will move 200 miles up north and away from their families for the chance to potentially play RL, then go ahead. 

I'm struggling to see how Broncos dropping a division or even disappearing altogether would result in that happening.



#44 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:01 PM

I'm struggling to see how Broncos dropping a division or even disappearing altogether would result in that happening.

 

Well then it's safe to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Exhibit A: November 2013. London Broncos still unable to say whether the club will still be in SL for 2014, or even in existence. London Broncs youth players Mason Caton Brown, Oscar Thomas and Saeed Agboke join London Irish on trial due to the situation at Broncos. Broncos survive and Caton-Brown (already a SL player at that point) and Agboke return, in order to stay with the club. However Oscar Thomas, along with Harry Little who is now at Nottingham Uni playing RU, are lost to the Broncos and RL in general. 

 

I'd like to know why you think that situation won't occur again and again. Union will be celebrating the loss of top flight RL in the area, sadly though so called RL fans will be celebrating even more. 



#45 keighley

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:13 PM

And on what basis do you make that claim? All the junior work was being done in Hounslow, Kingston and Surrey whilst we were in Twickers, but now all that hard work is gone, with the loss of development officers and the move to Edgware. The RFL will pay for one RL dev officer in an area where there are no junior or senior rl clubs and rl is an alien sport, in Harrow. 

 

Skolars are heavily reliant on Broncos for players, without them they will also suffer. The only players that will 'move North' will be the established players like Krasniqi, McMeeken, Dixon, Bishay etc. The academy players will be lost to the game completely, whether to union, football, uni or wherever they decide to go. 

 

I bow to your superior knowledge of RL in London. However, do Skolars not run junior teams of local youngsters.? Do not Hemel do the same.? Does the thriving Medway organisation depend on the Broncos.? What of the new South London club  and the Brixton and Croyden junior outfits.?

 

Are these teams not still playing.? I do not think the current Broncos outfit is luring them in with dreams of a SL career.

 

The academy players will either go to Skolars or Hemel or, if they are outstanding SL clubs will snap them up. After all the only RU outlet in London is Harlequins ?

 

Maybe a London team will advance to SL. Doubtful but some amazing developments have taken place on our game in recent years.

 

I have a gut feeling that junior RL in London has made such progress in London that it will survive the loss of the Broncos, especially as they are currently constituted.

 

Time will tell. Maybe we are all wrong and the Broncos will emerge rejuvenated and triumphant. it would be good for the game.



#46 yipyee

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:26 PM

I take it your referring to RL in South Wales? North Wales seems to have to do things via North Wales Crusaders as the WRL seem to have the vast majority of the organisation in the South - probably because that is where the majority of the rugby talent is. However a talented youngster from the North is going to find it really difficult to travel to Maesteg for academy training and will either develop with North Wales Crusaders or try on of the North West clubs in easy travelling distance.

As for the World Cup - we attracted almost 14000 supporters to the 2 games held at the Racecourse, and one of the games didn't feature Wales at all. Credit where its due I think RLWC2013 was sold well in the North.

I should add that I am pleased to see any investment in RL in Wales so well done to Wigan for this initiative.


yes sorry I should have inserted south....

NW seem to be going from strength to strength and good luck! Another successful Superleague club from outside M62 is what the sport needs (a club that sits atop a strong pyramid)...IMO a strong NW club would see a pick up in interest from the south!

#47 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:39 PM

Well then it's safe to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Exhibit A: November 2013. London Broncos still unable to say whether the club will still be in SL for 2014, or even in existence. London Broncs youth players Mason Caton Brown, Oscar Thomas and Saeed Agboke join London Irish on trial due to the situation at Broncos. Broncos survive and Caton-Brown (already a SL player at that point) and Agboke return, in order to stay with the club. However Oscar Thomas, along with Harry Little who is now at Nottingham Uni playing RU, are lost to the Broncos and RL in general. 

 

I'd like to know why you think that situation won't occur again and again. Union will be celebrating the loss of top flight RL in the area, sadly though so called RL fans will be celebrating even more. 

It's not safe at all.

 

You don't seem to be able to distinguish between grassroots rugby and professional rugby.

 

Clearly professional players need a professional team to play for but that doesn't mean that you cannot have grassroots development without a professional side.

 

There will be players like McCarthy-Scarsbrook and Sarginson coming through regardless, they just won't be playing for Broncos, northern sides need to do a Wigan and scout the area lest these players be lost to RU. But the attitude that these guys will never play RL without Broncos is just silly, Wigan certainly don't seem to believe this of south Wales.



#48 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:43 PM

I bow to your superior knowledge of RL in London. However, do Skolars not run junior teams of local youngsters.? Do not Hemel do the same.? Does the thriving Medway organisation depend on the Broncos.? What of the new South London club  and the Brixton and Croyden junior outfits.?

 

Are these teams not still playing.? I do not think the current Broncos outfit is luring them in with dreams of a SL career.

 

The academy players will either go to Skolars or Hemel or, if they are outstanding SL clubs will snap them up. After all the only RU outlet in London is Harlequins ?

 

Maybe a London team will advance to SL. Doubtful but some amazing developments have taken place on our game in recent years.

 

I have a gut feeling that junior RL in London has made such progress in London that it will survive the loss of the Broncos, especially as they are currently constituted.

 

Time will tell. Maybe we are all wrong and the Broncos will emerge rejuvenated and triumphant. it would be good for the game.

For all the "Broncos generate interest in RL in London" mantra being repeated ad nasuem here, you'd think there would be some evidence to back it up.

 

Ironically development has been far stronger outside London than inside London. Hemel will probably finish above Skolars in only their second season in the semi-pro league. If you are talking about youth development in the South East then Medway Dragons are as big a name as they get. Medway is not particularly close to London.



#49 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:46 PM

That's what all SL clubs should be doing. Each club should invest in a targetted area. They could help with development and also take games there. This would help promote their club, SL and RL in general and hopefully start to produce players from that area some of whom may filter through to the top level with others strengthening the local professional and amatuer clubs.

Whilst Wigan are doing a good thing first and formost a good thing for them but also vital for the game; they are fortunate enough to have cash to burn. I don't think you could expect Wakey or Bradford to do the same.



#50 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

There will be players like McCarthy-Scarsbrook and Sarginson coming through regardless, they just won't be playing for Broncos, northern sides need to do a Wigan and scout the area lest these players be lost to RU. But the attitude that these guys will never play RL without Broncos is just silly, Wigan certainly don't seem to believe this of south Wales.

 

Why haven't they shown any interest before then? The only reason LMS and Sarginson are playing up North, is because they were playing SL in London. It has nothing to do with Northern clubs scouting the region. I guarantee you neither of those two aforementioned players would be professional RL players without a SL team in London. 



#51 Futtocks

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:17 PM

The academy players will either go to Skolars or Hemel or, if they are outstanding SL clubs will snap them up. After all the only RU outlet in London is Harlequins ?

Saracens are back in London, have no hangups about looking to RL for talent, and can offer far better career prospects than pretty much any Rugby League club (apart from, maybe, the very top SL clubs). 


A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#52 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:29 PM

Saracens are back in London, have no hangups about looking to RL for talent, and can offer far better career prospects than pretty much any Rugby League club (apart from, maybe, the very top SL clubs). 

 

London Irish play in Reading, but they're based around Surrey. We've lost quite a few youth players to them over the years, including an England youth international and we almost lost another few last winter, including Caton Brown. They'd be snooping around the academy and are a massive threat. 



#53 Saintslass

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:36 PM

For all the "Broncos generate interest in RL in London" mantra being repeated ad nasuem here, you'd think there would be some evidence to back it up.

 

As any teacher worth their salt will tell you, the enthusiastic students and/or the gifted students will always aspire to the top, to the elite.  Without that aim they can drift or choose a less suitable path.  I am sure you are not unaware that professional clubs don't run junior teams.  There is no Saints under 8s team for example.  All the amateur clubs in St Helens run under 8s teams.  Saints scout and/or have players recommended to them and they come for trials, maybe are taken on the scholarship programme or their under 16s team (since I think the under 15s was abandoned SL wide when the under 21s were?  Or was it the under 16s that was abandoned? One of those age groups was abandoned anyway). 

 

If all a player wants is to play rugby league socially then the local amateur team is fine.  However, for those players who aspire to play rugby league professionally, to have no culturally and geographically relevant rugby league club at the elite level to aspire to will be detrimental both to those players and the sport as a whole.  And it's no good saying that northern teams will pick them up.  I know that the Sussex Merlins, for example, have been trying to contact northern Superleague clubs for weeks now as they have some interesting players but they haven't even had a return email.  Northern clubs, sadly, do not want to know, not least because they have lots of available talent in the north but also because they are invariably too blinkered to consider that actually there maybe southern players who are more talented than their northern counterparts and sending a reply email may actually be worthwhile.

 

If there was another Superleague club in the south of England then losing the Broncos wouldn't be so much of a problem (although obviously the more, the merrier).  But them being the only elite level club in a region containing millions of people means that if they are lost then I think the gap will be too great and potential will be lost to the sport.

 

There is also, of course, another angle to this: we struggle for England players in certain positions.  How do any of us know that a brilliant England centre isn't at present languishing down south because there is no way of raising his profile? 



#54 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:45 PM

Northern clubs, sadly, do not want to know, not least because they have lots of available talent in the north but also because they are invariably too blinkered to consider that actually there maybe southern players who are more talented than their northern counterparts and sending a reply email may actually be worthwhile.

 

I look forward to the usual suspects whining when Southern players like Sarge, Caro, Channing etc are keeping out Northern players from playing!



#55 The Parksider

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Well then it's safe to say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

Exhibit A: November 2013. London Broncos still unable to say whether the club will still be in SL for 2014, or even in existence. London Broncs youth players Mason Caton Brown, Oscar Thomas and Saeed Agboke join London Irish on trial due to the situation at Broncos. Broncos survive and Caton-Brown (already a SL player at that point) and Agboke return, in order to stay with the club. However Oscar Thomas, along with Harry Little who is now at Nottingham Uni playing RU, are lost to the Broncos and RL in general. 

 

I'd like to know why you think that situation won't occur again and again. Union will be celebrating the loss of top flight RL in the area, sadly though so called RL fans will be celebrating even more. 

 

Well I asked the question and as you took the time to give the answer and debate a little with the naysayers. I have to thank you very much indeed for an informative view.



#56 The Parksider

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

As any teacher worth their salt will tell you, the enthusiastic students and/or the gifted students will always aspire to the top, to the elite.  Without that aim they can drift or choose a less suitable path.  I am sure you are not unaware that professional clubs don't run junior teams.  There is no Saints under 8s team for example.  All the amateur clubs in St Helens run under 8s teams.  Saints scout and/or have players recommended to them and they come for trials, maybe are taken on the scholarship programme or their under 16s team (since I think the under 15s was abandoned SL wide when the under 21s were?  Or was it the under 16s that was abandoned? One of those age groups was abandoned anyway). 

 

If all a player wants is to play rugby league socially then the local amateur team is fine.  However, for those players who aspire to play rugby league professionally, to have no culturally and geographically relevant rugby league club at the elite level to aspire to will be detrimental both to those players and the sport as a whole.  And it's no good saying that northern teams will pick them up.  I know that the Sussex Merlins, for example, have been trying to contact northern Superleague clubs for weeks now as they have some interesting players but they haven't even had a return email.  Northern clubs, sadly, do not want to know, not least because they have lots of available talent in the north but also because they are invariably too blinkered to consider that actually there maybe southern players who are more talented than their northern counterparts and sending a reply email may actually be worthwhile.

 

If there was another Superleague club in the south of England then losing the Broncos wouldn't be so much of a problem (although obviously the more, the merrier).  But them being the only elite level club in a region containing millions of people means that if they are lost then I think the gap will be too great and potential will be lost to the sport.

 

There is also, of course, another angle to this: we struggle for England players in certain positions.  How do any of us know that a brilliant England centre isn't at present languishing down south because there is no way of raising his profile? 

 

And again, thank you for a very interesting post (as always).

 

I'd still be interested (anyone) on the view from South Wales. IIRC Swansea Jack used to say how the junior game was going so well when Celtic Crusaders were on the up. I just wonder how that compares today if anyone can tell us?



#57 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:10 PM

Saracens are back in London, have no hangups about looking to RL for talent, and can offer far better career prospects than pretty much any Rugby League club (apart from, maybe, the very top SL clubs). 

 

I forgot to mention, but there's also London Scottish and Ealing in the RU Championship, which is also fully pro. That makes 24 pro Union teams in England, compared to just 12 for RL. 



#58 londonrlfan

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

Well I asked the question and as you took the time to give the answer and debate a little with the naysayers. I have to thank you very much indeed for an informative view.

 

Thank you. I've said it many times before but no one seems to listen to me!



#59 Saintslass

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:24 PM

And again, thank you for a very interesting post (as always).

 

I'd still be interested (anyone) on the view from South Wales. IIRC Swansea Jack used to say how the junior game was going so well when Celtic Crusaders were on the up. I just wonder how that compares today if anyone can tell us?

You may find your answer on the Wales Rugby League website.  If you click on the 'clubs' tab that will give you an idea as to the number of clubs at various levels in operation within Wales, although my knowledge of the geography of Wales is pretty damn poor so I couldn't tell you where most of the places are in Wales (how ignorant of me!):

 

http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

 

I've also been meaning to buy a copy of the new magazine that the Scorps are producing in conjunction with Wales Rugby League.  It has replaced the traditional match programme and is providing information on various clubs and RL related stuff in Wales.  Now that I've been reminded of it I think I'll contact WRL and ask how I get a copy as I can't find the relevant tweet on my timeline.



#60 The Parksider

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:41 PM

Thank you. I've said it many times before but no one seems to listen to me!

 

They only hear what they want to hear.






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