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#1 ckn

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:39 AM

BBC article

 

I struggle with these concepts.  The NHS should be free* for British citizens for everything, if you're ill then you go to your GP, if you need it you get referred to your hospital, all without a single worry about having to foot a bill at the end of it.  Even those with chronic health problems caused by cigarettes and alcohol can point to the tax they've paid on their killer addictions and say that they've paid their excesses. 

 

The more you water down that commitment, the more you push things towards the private sector.  I've already experienced that with my wife's care, I have to pay about £12,000 a year on private medical care for her because the NHS won't cover it; it's not that I choose to go private, I either go private or my wife goes without.  Thankfully for us, we have enough income to cover that, most people couldn't put aside an extra £1000 from net monthly income to do so.  The really bloody annoying thing is that if I go to Scotland, I know I'd get it completely free and funded on the NHS.  I had one person say I should have had private healthcare insurance, it would have covered it; no it wouldn't, we did have the insurance but a couple of years of treatment sees them class it as "chronic" and block any future claims.  That alone is why the private sector should not be allowed to take over anything bar the most basic of non-clinical services.

 

As an aside, I've yet to have anyone convince me why it's in society's interests for the NHS to outsource anything.

 

* free obviously has the meaning that it's recovered from general taxation.


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#2 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:45 AM

This has to be a non-starter, really it has.  What revenue would it generate anyway?  a couple of billion a year- just  less pressure on the continuing and quite successful battle to reduce waste and inefficiency.

 

However, the NHS  ain't completely free at the point of use. Just ask your dentist.   

 

Blair's introduction of  the private sector into cataract surgery - 350,000 a year - or 1,000 a day  "from 2000 to 2008, waiting times fell from over two years to just four months. The pathway had changed dramatically, with surgery now routinely day case rather than a five-day inpatient stay."  http://www.hsj.co.uk...le#.UzkwqfldXNl

 

In France, where  you do pay for visits to your GP - even though you can get repaid all apart from 1€ - hospital,  etc etc - I didn't notice people feeling worried and apprehensive  . it just what you are used to and the systems in place ( in France a combination of state health funds and private top up insurances - Caisse Primaire d’Assurance Maladie, Complementaire.)  Butthen in France most doctors, consulatnst et care not employed by te stae but are "independent"

 

But no, in the UK, NHS should be free at point of use


Edited by JohnM, 31 March 2014 - 09:11 AM.


#3 Griff9of13

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:49 AM

I already pay membership of the NHS, it's called national insurance, and in my case it's much more that £10 per month.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I am more than happy to pay what I pay


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#4 ckn

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:49 AM

However, it ain't completely free at the point of use. Just ask your dentist.   

Mine is, my father-in-law is a retired dentist and his friends extend to us free dental care :P

 

Edit:  well, it generally costs me a bottle of whisky if there's ever any need for expensive private-level treatments...


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#5 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:19 AM

Mine is, my father-in-law is a retired dentist and his friends extend to us free dental care :P

 

Edit:  well, it generally costs me a bottle of whisky if there's ever any need for expensive private-level treatments...

 

Ah , like Orin Scrivelllo?

 

Ours uses anaesthetic: more effective, less fun. 


Edited by JohnM, 31 March 2014 - 09:20 AM.


#6 Grollo

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:39 PM

This has to be a non-starter, really it has.  What revenue would it generate anyway?  a couple of billion a year- just  less pressure on the continuing and quite successful battle to reduce waste and inefficiency.

 

However, the NHS  ain't completely free at the point of use. Just ask your dentist.   

 

Blair's introduction of  the private sector into cataract surgery - 350,000 a year - or 1,000 a day  "from 2000 to 2008, waiting times fell from over two years to just four months. The pathway had changed dramatically, with surgery now routinely day case rather than a five-day inpatient stay."  http://www.hsj.co.uk...le#.UzkwqfldXNl

 

In France, where  you do pay for visits to your GP - even though you can get repaid all apart from 1€ - hospital,  etc etc - I didn't notice people feeling worried and apprehensive  . it just what you are used to and the systems in place ( in France a combination of state health funds and private top up insurances - Caisse Primaire d’Assurance Maladie, Complementaire.)  Butthen in France most doctors, consulatnst et care not employed by te stae but are "independent"

 

But no, in the UK, NHS should be free at point of use

More wedge thin edge term thoughtism thought in British politics.


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#7 John Drake

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 05:58 PM

BBC article
 
I struggle with these concepts.  The NHS should be free* for British citizens for everything, if you're ill then you go to your GP, if you need it you get referred to your hospital, all without a single worry about having to foot a bill at the end of it.  Even those with chronic health problems caused by cigarettes and alcohol can point to the tax they've paid on their killer addictions and say that they've paid their excesses. 
 
The more you water down that commitment, the more you push things towards the private sector.  I've already experienced that with my wife's care, I have to pay about £12,000 a year on private medical care for her because the NHS won't cover it; it's not that I choose to go private, I either go private or my wife goes without.  Thankfully for us, we have enough income to cover that, most people couldn't put aside an extra £1000 from net monthly income to do so.  The really bloody annoying thing is that if I go to Scotland, I know I'd get it completely free and funded on the NHS.  I had one person say I should have had private healthcare insurance, it would have covered it; no it wouldn't, we did have the insurance but a couple of years of treatment sees them class it as "chronic" and block any future claims.  That alone is why the private sector should not be allowed to take over anything bar the most basic of non-clinical services.
 
As an aside, I've yet to have anyone convince me why it's in society's interests for the NHS to outsource anything.
 
* free obviously has the meaning that it's recovered from general taxation.


'The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it' - Aneurin Bevan

I wonder what Bevan would have made of Milord Warner (a Labour peer for gods sake) whose dumb proposal this is?

Mincemeat, probably.

I believe Warner has personal interests in companies providing private medical services, which may be colouring his judgement somewhat when it comes to solutions for the NHS.

And when we ask 'who elected him?', the answer is, of course, nobody.

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#8 Grollo

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 06:13 PM

'The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it' - Aneurin Bevan

I wonder what Bevan would have made of Milord Warner (a Labour peer for gods sake) whose dumb proposal this is?

Mincemeat, probably.

I believe Warner has personal interests in companies providing private medical services, which may be colouring his judgement somewhat when it comes to solutions for the NHS.

And when we ask 'who elected him?', the answer is, of course, nobody.

Bevan came from a totally different era. Who's to say he wouldn't in a less than desired manner now? I have a theory that those so-called baby boomers have had it too easy.


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#9 Saint Billinge

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 07:20 PM

'The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith to fight for it' - Aneurin Bevan

I wonder what Bevan would have made of Milord Warner (a Labour peer for gods sake) whose dumb proposal this is?

Mincemeat, probably.

I believe Warner has personal interests in companies providing private medical services, which may be colouring his judgement somewhat when it comes to solutions for the NHS.

And when we ask 'who elected him?', the answer is, of course, nobody.

 

This isn't the first time that someone has come up with a dumb proposal and not the last. It truly beggars belief from people who live on another planet. 



#10 JohnM

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:36 PM

The thing is , right, that some other nations have what seem to be perfectly functional health systems with a population just as healthy as ours but that work in a different way to ours. I've mentioned France as that is my direct experience.

 

How is it done in Germany or Sweden or The Netherlands for example? 

 

However good these other systems are, though, it would just not be possible to make the transition from our system of funding to theirs. Would anyone here be happy to carry an NHS card for without it they may be asked to pay at the GP?  Or would anyone here be happy that the first port of call when entering hospital is the cash desk where if you don't have state  or private insurance you have to pay in advance or at least a decent amount. Yet that is how some other EU countries operate and no one seems to suffer unduly.

 

Be that as it may, even if others have better funding models, we are not going to change from "free at the point of use except dentists and opticians" and anyone who suggest such a change is on a hiding to nothing.



#11 Trojan

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:34 PM

Thin end of the wedge. Once the principle's established the government (any government) will feel free to up the charge.  It should be resisted


Edited by Trojan, 31 March 2014 - 09:34 PM.

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#12 Bigal02

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:27 AM

Let's see if I've got this right?  We have to pay compulsory National Insurance contributions, but if we want free health care, we will have to pay an extra £10 a month?



#13 JohnM

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:47 PM

Let's see if I've got this right?  We have to pay compulsory National Insurance contributions, but if we want free health care, we will have to pay an extra £10 a month?

 

no.  its not actually happened...nor will it.



#14 Futtocks

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Thin end of the wedge. Once the principle's established the government (any government) will feel free to up the charge.  It should be resisted

In this case, I think they've bypassed the thin end.


A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#15 John Drake

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:28 PM

The thing is , right, that some other nations have what seem to be perfectly functional health systems with a population just as healthy as ours but that work in a different way to ours. I've mentioned France as that is my direct experience.

 

How is it done in Germany or Sweden or The Netherlands for example? 

 

However good these other systems are, though, it would just not be possible to make the transition from our system of funding to theirs. Would anyone here be happy to carry an NHS card for without it they may be asked to pay at the GP?  Or would anyone here be happy that the first port of call when entering hospital is the cash desk where if you don't have state  or private insurance you have to pay in advance or at least a decent amount. Yet that is how some other EU countries operate and no one seems to suffer unduly.

 

Be that as it may, even if others have better funding models, we are not going to change from "free at the point of use except dentists and opticians" and anyone who suggest such a change is on a hiding to nothing.

 

You say no one suffers unduly under those alternative systems but how can you or anyone else truly know that? How many people simply don't bother going for treatment because they know they can't afford it and so suffer in silence? Thanks to the NHS, no one in this country has to make that calculation. More fool anyone who takes that for granted and believes it will never change. It would change in an instant if politicians thought they could get away with it. The chaos of dental provision demonstrates that charging and privatisation absolutely will and does deny these services to people who need them but cannot afford or find them.

 

Ideas like those proposed by Milord Warner and his 'independent' thinktank don't appear out of thin air for no reason at all. They are designed to wear down resistance to the notion of health service charging, slowly and over time. Propose something that appears outrageous at first, and follow it with something later that appears more modest in comparison but is essentially the same thing watered down. It is an old, old political con trick.

 

If it sounds like I don't trust politicians (especially unelected ones) or 'independent' thinktanks with the NHS, you're damn right. I don't!


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#16 Bigal02

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:13 AM

 

 

Ideas like those proposed by Milord Warner and his 'independent' thinktank don't appear out of thin air for no reason at all. They are designed to wear down resistance to the notion of health service charging, slowly and over time. Propose something that appears outrageous at first, and follow it with something later that appears more modest in comparison but is essentially the same thing watered down. It is an old, old political con trick.

 

If it sounds like I don't trust politicians (especially unelected ones) or 'independent' thinktanks with the NHS, you're damn right. I don't!

I totally agree.  Remember when the poll tax was introduced?  It was pitched ludicrously  high, but when it was reduced to about twice what we were paying before, everyone thought it was a bargain.



#17 JohnM

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:15 PM

You say no one suffers unduly under those alternative systems but how can you or anyone else truly know that? How many people simply don't bother going for treatment because they know they can't afford it and so suffer in silence? Thanks to the NHS, no one in this country has to make that calculation. More fool anyone who takes that for granted and believes it will never change. It would change in an instant if politicians thought they could get away with it. The chaos of dental provision demonstrates that charging and privatisation absolutely will and does deny these services to people who need them but cannot afford or find them.

Ideas like those proposed by Milord Warner and his 'independent' thinktank don't appear out of thin air for no reason at all. They are designed to wear down resistance to the notion of health service charging, slowly and over time. Propose something that appears outrageous at first, and follow it with something later that appears more modest in comparison but is essentially the same thing watered down. It is an old, old political con trick.

If it sounds like I don't trust politicians (especially unelected ones) or 'independent' thinktanks with the NHS, you're damn right. I don't!


There is a huge amount of data available on life expectancy, survival rates, waiting times, infection rates, etc etc etc. ..and i mean huge. Maybe a look at these might tell a story. More subjectively, there is nothing the French media like me than poking fun at the NHS and competing it unfavourable with their health system.

However,I am convinced that the NHS Will remain free at the point of use no matter who is in power

#18 ckn

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:38 PM

There is a huge amount of data available on life expectancy, survival rates, waiting times, infection rates, etc etc etc. ..and i mean huge. Maybe a look at these might tell a story. More subjectively, there is nothing the French media like me than poking fun at the NHS and competing it unfavourable with their health system.

However,I am convinced that the NHS Will remain free at the point of use no matter who is in power

I hope you're right.  I really do.


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#19 John Drake

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:12 AM

However,I am convinced that the NHS Will remain free at the point of use no matter who is in power

 

Sadly, I'm not.

 

Not without the eternal vigilance of everyone who wants it to remain that way.

 

It won't be done openly, of course. Remember, we live in a nation where politicians can say one thing to get elected ('no top down reorganisation of the NHS') and once elected, do the exact opposite.

 

Trust no one.


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#20 Griff9of13

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM

Sadly, I'm not.

 

Not without the eternal vigilance of everyone who wants it to remain that way.

 

It won't be done openly, of course. Remember, we live in a nation where politicians can say one thing to get elected ('no top down reorganisation of the NHS') and once elected, do the exact opposite.

 

Trust no one.

 

Nail on the head. Problem is there is are little or no alternatives available who can be trusted these days. :(


"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."




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