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Hillsborough


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#1 ckn

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

Guardian article on the changing of police "facts" by senior officers.  This isn't a prosecution barrister alleging it, it's the coroner stating it as an absolute fact.


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#2 Bob8

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:05 PM

The only thing that irritates me about this now is that people still pretend that any reasonable person was mislead.  It was on ###### television and people chose to believe The Sun over their own eyes.  If you were ever mislead, you have very little claim to be anything but unhinged.


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#3 Saintslass

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:48 PM

The only thing that irritates me about this now is that people still pretend that any reasonable person was mislead.  It was on ###### television and people chose to believe The Sun over their own eyes.  If you were ever mislead, you have very little claim to be anything but unhinged.

I think that's rather a silly thing to say to be honest.  We're talking decades ago now and the country was a very different place in so many ways back then.  It is so easy to cast judgment on ordinary people who weren't at the ground in an age of 24 hour satellite news and social media.



#4 Phil

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:07 PM

I think that's rather a silly thing to say to be honest. We're talking decades ago now and the country was a very different place in so many ways back then. It is so easy to cast judgment on ordinary people who weren't at the ground in an age of 24 hour satellite news and social media.


96 people died because of the ineptitude and couldn't care less attitude of the police.

There was then an orchestrated campaign by the police and parts of the media to criminalise the victims and their friends (remember the claim in the sun that bodies of the dead were robbed and police and ambulance personnel urinated on?)

The police issued completely fictional statements about what had occurred which were accepted as fact by the media.

And all you can say is silly, you really are something.
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#5 Dave T

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:28 PM

96 people died because of the ineptitude and couldn't care less attitude of the police.

There was then an orchestrated campaign by the police and parts of the media to criminalise the victims and their friends (remember the claim in the sun that bodies of the dead were robbed and police and ambulance personnel urinated on?)

The police issued completely fictional statements about what had occurred which were accepted as fact by the media.

And all you can say is silly, you really are something.

I'm a bit confused as to why you are attacking Saintlass here. I agree with here that what Bob8 said was silly. Plenty of the claims made weren't things that the general public could pick up from the clips we see on the news.



#6 JohnM

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

Out of order Phil and letting yourself down by attacking Saintslass personally in that way.

I think that the statement at the outset of the new inquest struck the right balance.

#7 Wolford6

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:03 AM

The Police orchestration of statements is indefensible.

 

However, people without tickets did try to force their way in and did contribute greatly to the crush.

 

Hopefully, this inquest won't be hijacked by either party  and will produce an honest objective verdict.


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#8 ckn

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:47 AM

I know it's an emotive subject but please be nice to each other.  People should be able to make emotionally strong statements without pointing to other forum members and attacking them.

 

I have no time to moderate this just now but if anyone has a real issue with the posts above then hit the report button and John can deal with it!


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#9 Griff9of13

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:43 AM

The Police orchestration of statements is indefensible.

 

However, people without tickets did try to force their way in and did contribute greatly to the crush.

 

Hopefully, this inquest won't be hijacked by either party  and will produce an honest objective verdict.

 

Have you read the Taylor report? Obviously not as it categorically refutes that claim. 

 

Taking a leaf out of JohnM's book, I must declare an interest here. I was a family friend of one of the victims, Kevin Williams and was sat with his brother while the tragedy was unfolding on the TV. I had to attend two funerals in one day of two lads barely into their teens. For this to drag on for 25 years is another tragedy for the families to cope with on top of the original tragedy of 96 people ending up dead just for going to watch a sporting event. 

 

The real shame, for me, if the police in charge on the day had shown just a modicum of humanity and courage and had admitted that mistakes had been made instead of instigating a cover up and trying to pin the blame on the victims themselves Hillsborough would probable be regarded now in the same way as the Ibrox disaster and the Bradford fire, tragic, horrific events, but ones we have been able to move on from.

 

The one thing that concerns me the most from the original inquest was the decision at the outset to set the time limit to 3.15pm. That just stinks of a cover up and I've always wondered just high up the 'chain of command' that decision was taken. 


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#10 Bob8

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:18 AM

I think that's rather a silly thing to say to be honest. We're talking decades ago now and the country was a very different place in so many ways back then. It is so easy to cast judgment on ordinary people who weren't at the ground in an age of 24 hour satellite news and social media.


We are often told that twenty years ago kiddie fiddling and framing people were morally OK, but it was not. I was around twenty years ago and it is hard to communicate the logical leaps people had to make in order to believe that the police were in the right and accept that somehow they had seen things on TV camers that they had not seen.

 

The point is not silly. The evidence was clear, the cover up was rubbish and only an idiot or someone determined could fall for it.  To provide some context, I was in high school in the south of England.  The only people who believed the police version were looney Thatcherites. 


Edited by Bob8, 03 April 2014 - 11:17 AM.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#11 Bob8

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:19 AM

Out of order Phil and letting yourself down by attacking Saintslass personally in that way.

I think that the statement at the outset of the new inquest struck the right balance.

I find it fair. That it was OK to do it 20 years ago is at best bizarre.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#12 MikeW

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:54 AM

I find it fair. That it was OK to do it 20 years ago is at best bizarre.

What you saw on tv was the result Bob, not the cause.  Why would you have to be unhinged to believe the police and subsequent inquest over the views of the football supporters?



#13 Bob8

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:00 AM

Even living in the South, the Sun version was clearly nonsense.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#14 MikeW

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:06 AM

Even living in the South, the Sun version was clearly nonsense.

I've never read the Sun's version, but you're suggesting that it was a case of the Sun version of events versus the spectators, when it was the whole of the established law service & the Sun versus the spectators version of events. 



#15 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:39 AM

I'm going to break ranks a bit here. I thought all this was just down to scousers just not accepting responsibility for their actions, and always wanting to blame someone else. I believed the 'official' line and thought why don’t they just let it drop.

 

However, since the last disclosure, I could not have been more wrong. The people affected by Hillsborough deserve recognition, in that they took on the establishment, they persisted for many years, they did not 'just let it drop' they knew that the people who were supposedly responsible for the safety on that day failed, they knew that these failings were covered up. To take on the power and influence of the establishment and win is quite some achievement, even in today’s free and open society.



#16 tim2

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:30 PM

I'm going to break ranks a bit here. I thought all this was just down to scousers just not accepting responsibility for their actions, and always wanting to blame someone else. I believed the 'official' line and thought why don’t they just let it drop.[/size]
 
 [/size]
 
However, since the last disclosure, I could not have been more wrong. The people affected by Hillsborough deserve recognition, in that they took on the establishment, they persisted for many years, they did not 'just let it drop' they knew that the people who were supposedly responsible for the safety on that day failed, they knew that these failings were covered up. To take on the power and influence of the establishment and win is quite some achievement, even in today’s free and open society.[/size]


Well, and honestly, said. Loads of people are retrospectively saying it was all nonsense but if that as so, why was there not a massive outcry at the time? Remember, we were only a few years on from Heisel, Thatcher had stigmatised football supporters and it was definitely plausible to believe the establishment view. In South Yorkshire the SYP had "form" from the Miners' Strike so as further accounts emerged, and other interpretations were being made, I became increasingly uncomfortable with the initial account. What is scandalous is that it dragged out so long before the truth has emerged. The support groups, and some MPs, must take massive credit for fighting this all the way.
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#17 JohnM

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:15 PM

The prevailing atmosphere in football overall at that time was one where a small minority of drunken and violent "fans" were causing misery for the vast majority who were and are decent law-abiding fans.  

 

The BBC TV and radio reporting, live, as it happened, indicated that fans who could not get in were rushing the gates.

 

Thus it was understandable at that immediate time that many formed the view that some drunken and violent fans outside the ground were to blame, helped by the BBC  initial reporting.

 

Very soon afterwards as the reporting became more comprehensive and accurate it became clear that  there was much more to it than that.

 

Then the cover up started..and the briefings started.  Given the reputation of some fans, it is easy to understand why the general public were  dummied into believing the police account. 

 

And as tim2 said, " I became increasingly uncomfortable with the initial account.  What is scandalous is that it dragged out so long before the truth has emerged. The support groups, and some MPs, must take massive credit for fighting this all the way."  Spot on.

 

There are though, some who still didn't "get it".http://www.huffingto..._n_1416980.html


Edited by JohnM, 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM.


#18 Saintslass

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:48 PM

We are often told that twenty years ago kiddie fiddling and framing people were morally OK, but it was not. I was around twenty years ago and it is hard to communicate the logical leaps people had to make in order to believe that the police were in the right and accept that somehow they had seen things on TV camers that they had not seen.

I was around 20 years ago too.  I was a fully fledged paid up adult, and I can say with absolute confidence that 20 years ago 'kiddie fiddling' was not considered ok and nor was framing peopleNor is it portrayed as having been considered ok then in the media these days (in fact kiddie fiddling hasn't been considered ok for decades).  However, paedophilia was still very much a taboo subject 20 years ago and as a result it was much tougher to uncover.  In addition, people in positions of authority were still instinctively trusted, albeit not to the same extent as in my parents' day (they are retired). 

 

I didn't read The Sun back then and I still don't read The Sun now so whoever is equating my position to the one taken by The Sun is well off course.

 

Back then the pervasive story was that there had been lots of drunken fans, there had been people trying to get in who had not paid, there had been a crush at the gate and the cages built in soccer grounds to stop soccer fans from running on to the pitch meant that nobody could escape the crush. I didn't know  anyone personally at the time who suspected the police had lied, changed evidence or that the ambulances had not been able and/or willing to get to the injured in good time or whatever else has subsequently been unearthed.  As I said earlier, we did not have 24/7 satellite news channels back then; we did not have mobile phones; we did not have social media and we did not as a culture routinely suspect those in positions of authority of acting in a corrupt and/or irresponsible manner (unlike now).  The impact of these things on the whole story of Hillsborough cannot be underestimated.

 

I'm glad that the victims of the tragedy as well as those of us kept in ignorance back in the day now have an opportunity to discover the truth, and I hope that the truth, once it is established, leads to changes which ensure a Hillsborough does not happen again - and I don't just mean the tragic death and injury of so many people.



#19 Saintslass

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:55 PM

 Thatcher had stigmatised football supporters

Incorrect.  A section of the soccer support had stigmatised soccer supporters.  There were terrible scenes of soccer thuggery back then.  Granted, the majority of soccer supporters will have been fine but those who weren't - mainly young men - brought English soccer down into the sewers, frankly, both in this country and abroad.  The cages around soccer grounds were built to stop fans from spilling on to the pitch and having all out brawls with the opposition fans, which is what was happening.  It was getting out of control.  After Hillsborough the cages were all dismantled and in the years following the soccer thuggery reduced, a law was brought in banning soccer fans (and only soccer fans) from stepping on to the pitch and generally speaking, bar a few unfortunate incidences, English soccer fans have as a body been better behaved since then.



#20 JohnM

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:18 PM

I find it fair. That it was OK to do it 20 years ago is at best bizarre.

 

"you really are something" said Phil.

 

I think that is unfair. 






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