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Sean O'Loughlin v Paul Sculthorpe - which one was better?


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#41 Padge

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:32 PM

What was the question again, who do you support Wigan or Saints was it?



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#42 Dave T

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:32 PM

I feel Sculthorpe's international influence is being somewhat overstated here personally.

 

We usually failed miserably against the Aussies and Kiwis when Sculthorpe was in the team too.

 

In fact, O'Loughlin's win ratio against Australia and NZ is 64% versus Sculthorpe's 24% - according to rugbyleagueproject which has been known to contain errors I should add.



#43 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:41 PM

Some facts, which show how much Lockers will have to do in the last 3 years of his career to compare favourably...

Scully - 325 club games - while he retired at 30, he had done the hard yards from an early age. England 4 caps, GB 26 caps. MoS twice - the only man to win it in consecutive years (save for Schofield, according to Schoepedia). Won 4 SLs, 2 WCCs (including the incredible Broncos win, in which he scored) and 5 CCs. Admittedly in a stronger team, for a long time.

Lockers - 322 club games (though for a much bigger club). England 8 caps. GB 11 caps. No MoS, though iirc he was shortlisted once. Has won 2 SLs, 2 CCs (and 2 Minor Prems, but Scully has probably won more of those as well).

He has time to improve his case. I think the key to how this particular story will end is how much longer Lockers can stay fit...



#44 Bob8

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:59 PM

I feel Sculthorpe's international influence is being somewhat overstated here personally.

 

We usually failed miserably against the Aussies and Kiwis when Sculthorpe was in the team too.

 

In fact, O'Loughlin's win ratio against Australia and NZ is 64% versus Sculthorpe's 24% - according to rugbyleagueproject which has been known to contain errors I should add.

I would assert (without any proof) that O'Loughlin has in recent years being playing in a better team (though not always).  I would strongly doubt that O'Loughlin has been the difference in the improvement.


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#45 nathanwood7

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:03 PM

Not sure about those stats. Clearly wins v Aus are hard to come by, but from what I can remember O'Loughlin has won once against Australia in his career. I'd rather focus on performace, and in terms of individual performances he has not produced at the same level as Sculthorpe.

 

The point is that whilst clearly we have never had a great record v Australia, Scully has been very influential in matches against Australia and when he was at the height of his powers in 2001-2004 GB/England was perhaps as close as we've been in recent memory to Australia.

 

I think back to games such as his 2 try man of the match performance in the win v Aus at Huddersfield in 2001. Without Scully we wouldn't have won that game. Similarly he turned in influential performances in all 3 tests v Australia in 2003 in the series where we narrowly lost each match at the death, and was similarly effective in the 2 tests in 2004 (narrow loss in Manchester and win at Wigan - less said about the final the better....).

 

O'Loughlin did play in the famous win in Sydney in 2006 (his only win v Aus?) and played well, but if you think back to the key performances in that game then it's Long, Newton and Roby that spring to mind for me.

 

Lockers is clearly a great player, but I think this point says it best - In the current England team when we needed a game-breaker at the Wembley semi final then it was Burgess, Tomkins or Widdop that the majority of England fans/players were looking to, and nobody was really expecting O'Loughlin to be the game-breaker. If Scully was in the team then you would definitely be looking to him to make the difference. O'Loughlin was very solid in that semi-final bar a couple of uncharacteristic knock-ons, but had Sculthorpe been playing then we would definitely have stood a greater chance of winning in my opinion.



#46 Scubby

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:34 PM

Sculthorpe was absolutely devastating over those few years either side of the millennium. Running (with pace), passing and goal kicking - watch his performances in the 2001 Ashes (and even when we got spanked in Aus 2002), and NZ 2002 to see him in his prime.

 

O'Loughlin has played consistently well over a long period of time. He is an outstanding player but has never bust the line like Sculthorpe has. I think Sculthorpe's injuries and subsequent early retirement have robbed us of some prime years. Would have both in my team at their best.


Edited by Scubby, 08 April 2014 - 01:35 PM.


#47 Eldujo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

I watched Sculthorpe home and away from his joining Saints to his retirement. You could call his performances a lot of things but 'stinkers' isn't one of them. He was head and shoulders above everything in Super League throughout his career. He was nearly always in our best 3 players on the field and was more important to Saints than either Long or Cunningham. The injury ravaged Sculthorpe towards the end barely played and it was a real shame but I'll never forget his return on one leg to beat Brisbane at Bolton. The man was a colossus. A leader with a better running and passing game than O'Loughlin. He had an underrated kicking game as well. He could do the lot and is a genuine great of the game. I'm sorry but O'Loughlin isn't.

O'Loughlin is a fine player and it's no slant on him saying he isn't anywhere near as good as Scully was. Very few have been. I really rate O'Loughlin and he's huge to that Wigan team. But Sculthorpe was another level up totally. Anybody putting them together have totally forgotten just how good Sculthorpe was, either in the second row, at loose forward or at stand off where he was the best player on the field against the Australians.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge as I only ever watched him when Saints or GB were on TV. I'll stick by stinkers though towards the tail end as the injuries took their toll. I probably remember the end of his career far better than the beginning which sways me to SOL.



#48 Dave T

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:50 PM

Not sure about those stats. Clearly wins v Aus are hard to come by, but from what I can remember O'Loughlin has won once against Australia in his career. I'd rather focus on performace, and in terms of individual performances he has not produced at the same level as Sculthorpe.

 

The point is that whilst clearly we have never had a great record v Australia, Scully has been very influential in matches against Australia and when he was at the height of his powers in 2001-2004 GB/England was perhaps as close as we've been in recent memory to Australia.

 

I think back to games such as his 2 try man of the match performance in the win v Aus at Huddersfield in 2001. Without Scully we wouldn't have won that game. Similarly he turned in influential performances in all 3 tests v Australia in 2003 in the series where we narrowly lost each match at the death, and was similarly effective in the 2 tests in 2004 (narrow loss in Manchester and win at Wigan - less said about the final the better....).

 

O'Loughlin did play in the famous win in Sydney in 2006 (his only win v Aus?) and played well, but if you think back to the key performances in that game then it's Long, Newton and Roby that spring to mind for me.

 

Lockers is clearly a great player, but I think this point says it best - In the current England team when we needed a game-breaker at the Wembley semi final then it was Burgess, Tomkins or Widdop that the majority of England fans/players were looking to, and nobody was really expecting O'Loughlin to be the game-breaker. If Scully was in the team then you would definitely be looking to him to make the difference. O'Loughlin was very solid in that semi-final bar a couple of uncharacteristic knock-ons, but had Sculthorpe been playing then we would definitely have stood a greater chance of winning in my opinion.

He also played off the bench in 2004 when we beat Oz.

 

His record against NZ is far better than Sculthorpe's, but I do take the point made by another poster that it is unfair to simply look at results against these teams as it is a team game.

 

I do also think that people will naturally pick and choose things to suit their argument, as some people will state that we were worse back then, yet our record against the Aussies was certainly better back then.

 

I think your last paragraph actually explains why it is difficult to compare these two players. They had pretty different styles and maybe my judgement is clouded by some pretty poor seasons from Sculthorpe, often hampered by injuries. Sculthorpe may have had the x-factor but O'Loughlin has been far more consistent over his career imho.

 

I rated Sculthorpe very highly, but I still think his presence is being overstated.



#49 Cumbrian Fanatic

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:47 PM

If Ellery Hanley was available you wouldn't pick either of them...............

Didn't think of him when I wrote my earlier post


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#50 Grollo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:10 PM

Both would have succeeded downunder. Neither played in the best league in the sport. If only.


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#51 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:12 PM

Both would have succeeded downunder. Neither played in the best league in the sport. If only.

The Yorkshire Sunday league?


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#52 Grollo

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:14 PM

The Yorkshire Sunday league?

Nosebleed days.


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#53 dkw

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:47 PM

Sculthorpe was a much better player, but SOL a much more honest one. I'd have SOL in a Bulls shirt before Sculthorpe.

What does that even mean, more honest?

For me it's sculthorpe by a distance. O'loughlin is a very good player,very solid and rarely let's his team down. But he's quite "functional" when compared to sculthorpe.

#54 MrFussy

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:11 PM

What does that even mean, more honest?

For me it's sculthorpe by a distance. O'loughlin is a very good player,very solid and rarely let's his team down. But he's quite "functional" when compared to sculthorpe.

Well Scully did try and hide from the referee after giving Mark O'Meley a bit of a pasting in the 2004 Three Nations :)

 

I'm guessing that's probably not what was meant by that post though...


Edited by MrFussy, 08 April 2014 - 06:14 PM.


#55 getdownmonkeyman

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:13 PM

Now, you'd be truly insane to disagree with that. The best of the best. Hanley, then daylight.

 

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#56 Derwent

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:16 PM

Now, you'd be truly insane to disagree with that. The best of the best. Hanley, then daylight.


Yep. I'd also add that people forget, or are too young to know, what a great loose forward Phil Clarke was. If his career hadn't been ended at just 24 by injury I reckon he'd have gone on to outshine both of the subjects of this thread.

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#57 Dave T

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:22 PM

Yep. I'd also add that people forget, or are too young to know, what a great loose forward Phil Clarke was. If his career hadn't been ended at just 24 by injury I reckon he'd have gone on to outshine both of the subjects of this thread.

was he really so young when he retired?

#58 Derwent

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:47 PM

was he really so young when he retired?


Yes he was 24 when he got his neck injury, was a real shame.

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#59 bamfordsbeans

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:07 PM

When discussing Britains best over the last 30 years or so the no 13 position stands out against all the rest.

#60 red v stella

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:25 PM

how can you try and compare................ scully by a mile