Jump to content


Rugby League World - Grand Finals Issue

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD - THE GRAND FINALS ISSUE - OUT 17 OCT OR DOWNLOAD IT NOW!
Try our Fantastic 4-Issue Bundle Offer:
For just £14, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:

The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final drama from both hemispheres plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

RFL want Great Britain tour in 2015


  • Please log in to reply
74 replies to this topic

#41 londonrlfan

londonrlfan
  • Coach
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:32 PM

Personally, I would only class soccer as a 'big-time' international sport out of those 3. The top level of basketball is the NBA - there isn't an international competition that generates huge publicity or global interest. In terms of handball I couldn't name you a single team, let alone the name of any international competition. Just because these sports have loads of international fixtures doesn't mean that their respective international structures are commercially successful.

 

Basketball is pretty huge over the globe, probably the second most popular team sport. There are professional leagues over the globe and the WC and Olympics are far more prestigious than the NBA. Handball is the second most popular sport in Europe and is also popular in Asia, SA and Africa. I think we underestimate the popularity of these sports in the UK, because they aren't as big, but I wouldn't complain if RL could have the international appeal basketball or handball have. 



#42 RugbyLeagueGeek

RugbyLeagueGeek
  • Coach
  • 644 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:06 PM

Basketball is pretty huge over the globe, probably the second most popular team sport. There are professional leagues over the globe and the WC and Olympics are far more prestigious than the NBA. Handball is the second most popular sport in Europe and is also popular in Asia, SA and Africa. I think we underestimate the popularity of these sports in the UK, because they aren't as big, but I wouldn't complain if RL could have the international appeal basketball or handball have. 

I'm not disputing the global appeal of these sports - I'm questioning their competitive international structures and how they relate - if at all - to rugby league. Does basketball have a world cup? Does handball have a world cup? What are the viewing figures, tv and sponsorship deals etc for these international competitions? I would dispute that a basketball world cup is more prestigious than the NBA - what do the figures say?

 

Either way - are they sports that RL should look to mimic? If handball and basketball are as massive as you say, is it worth RL trying to copy what they do in these sports? The strategy for our game has to be something that suits RL - not a pale imitation of what works for other sports.


Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek, 12 April 2014 - 07:11 PM.


#43 londonrlfan

londonrlfan
  • Coach
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:27 PM

I'm not disputing the global appeal of these sports - I'm questioning their competitive international structures and how they relate - if at all - to rugby league. Does basketball have a world cup? Does handball have a world cup? What are the viewing figures, tv and sponsorship deals etc for these international competitions? I would dispute that a basketball world cup is more prestigious than the NBA - what do the figures say?

 

Yeah they both have WCs. According to the IHF, 2013's Handball WC had: 150 countries showing the tournament live, 98 million watched the final and the tournament had more than 1600 media accreditations. For basketball, most recent was in 2010. According to FIBA: It was shown in 132 countries, 800 million watched the tournament, with China v Greece having 65 million in China alone and 30 million people visited the official website during the championships. 

 

Maybe in the USA the NBA is seen as most important, but not in Spain or France it wouldn't be. It's the same as Australians claiming SOO is the pinnacle of rugby league, when it only is to Australians. 



#44 Big Picture

Big Picture
  • Coach
  • 1,164 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:32 PM

Personally, I would only class soccer as a 'big-time' international sport out of those 3. The top level of basketball is the NBA - there isn't an international competition that generates huge publicity or global interest. In terms of handball I couldn't name you a single team, let alone the name of any international competition. Just because these sports have loads of international fixtures doesn't mean that their respective international structures are commercially successful.

 

I'm not sure international RL should be looking to either basketball or handball as a blueprint for a successful international sport. Soccer is a global behemoth with immense financial backing that is impossible to compete with, so I'm not sure RL will get very far trying to emulate that sport either. Which leads me to sports like RU and cricket, both of which have tours.

 

I think RL needs to play to its strengths and plan an international calendar that works for the sport, rather than trying to mimic other sports that may have completely different strengths and weaknesses to ours. For me, this would probably contain elements of both international tournaments and tours, because I see international RL being far more similar to the likes of cricket and RU than it is to soccer or handball.

Here's a list for both basketball and handball.

Basketball

FIBA World Cup
FIBA European Championship (Euro-basket)
FIBA African Championship
FIBA Asian Championship
FIBA American Championship
FIBA Oceanian Championship

Handball

IHF World Championship
EHF European Championship
AHB African Championship
AHF Asian Championship
PAHF American Championship
OCHF Oceania Championship

 

These are all directly comparable to their soccer equivalents, that's why I consider basketball and handball in the same class as soccer.

 

The problem with reinstating tours is that in the old days they were the pinnacle of RL's international game and world cups were an afterthought, scheduled haphazardly with regular format changes.  Now that the sport has a proper world cup schedule, the world cup needs to become the pinnacle of international RL, not tours.


Edited by Big Picture, 12 April 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#45 londonrlfan

londonrlfan
  • Coach
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:46 PM

That's why I would like to see a European Championship and an Oceania Championship in RL. I'm going to keep banging on about it until the RLIF decide to have one!



#46 RugbyLeagueGeek

RugbyLeagueGeek
  • Coach
  • 644 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:53 PM

Here's a list for both basketball and handball.

Basketball

FIBA World Cup
FIBA European Championship (Euro-basket)
FIBA African Championship
FIBA Asian Championship
FIBA American Championship
FIBA Oceanian Championship

Handball

IHF World Championship
EHF European Championship
AHB African Championship
AHF Asian Championship
PAHF American Championship
OCHF Oceania Championship

 

These are all directly comparable to their soccer equivalents, that's why I consider basketball and handball in the same class as soccer.

The may have a similar structure, but they don't even come close to soccer in economical terms.

 

 

 

The problem with reinstating tours is that in the old days they were the pinnacle of RL's international game and world cups were an afterthought, scheduled haphazardly with regular format changes.  Now that the sport has a proper world cup schedule, the world cup needs to become the pinnacle of international RL, not tours.

I agree that the World Cup should be a pinnacle, and I agree with trying to produce a coherent structure that incorporates European tournaments, Oceania tournaments, Americas tournaments and World tournaments.

 

However, tours are not inherently bad. Sports such as RU and cricket utilise tours in their international calendars and they are commercially successful and generate huge fan and media interest.

 

I believe that an effective balance of tours and tournaments can help to create a strong international calendar, and the two do not need to be mutually exclusive.

 



#47 RugbyLeagueGeek

RugbyLeagueGeek
  • Coach
  • 644 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:59 PM

Yeah they both have WCs. According to the IHF, 2013's Handball WC had: 150 countries showing the tournament live, 98 million watched the final and the tournament had more than 1600 media accreditations. For basketball, most recent was in 2010. According to FIBA: It was shown in 132 countries, 800 million watched the tournament, with China v Greece having 65 million in China alone and 30 million people visited the official website during the championships. 

 

Maybe in the USA the NBA is seen as most important, but not in Spain or France it wouldn't be. It's the same as Australians claiming SOO is the pinnacle of rugby league, when it only is to Australians. 

So is it worth RL trying to directly emulate these sports? Our game only has 2 fully pro competitions in England and Australia. How many handball and basketball leagues are fully professional? New Zealand and France are the only other nations with full time pro clubs. After that what have we got? If we try and pretend that - as of 2014 - we can produce a competitive international calendar on the scale of those you mention then we're kidding ourselves.

 

The long-term aim has to be to work towards this type of schedule, but that doesn't mean that tours are somehow completely irrelevant and serve no purpose. In the short term they can help to provide some meaningful international structure alongside a tournament schedule.



#48 londonrlfan

londonrlfan
  • Coach
  • 923 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:15 PM

So is it worth RL trying to directly emulate these sports? Our game only has 2 fully pro competitions in England and Australia. How many handball and basketball leagues are fully professional? New Zealand and France are the only other nations with full time pro clubs. After that what have we got? If we try and pretend that - as of 2014 - we can produce a competitive international calendar on the scale of those you mention then we're kidding ourselves.

 

The long-term aim has to be to work towards this type of schedule, but that doesn't mean that tours are somehow completely irrelevant and serve no purpose. In the short term they can help to provide some meaningful international structure alongside a tournament schedule.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I know RL is a long way behind both of those sports, but it's a good target to try and emulate in say 50 years from now. I don't think it is impossible to have a European and an Oceania Championship in RL in the next couple of years, down the line we could have an Americas and an African one, but they are at least 5 years away. But having more regional championships is the way forward for the sport and they could be quarennial and in between the WCs, so there is a major tournament every two years. It also gives the likes of Wales, Scotland, Fiji, PNG etc more big and meaningful games. 



#49 yipyee

yipyee
  • Coach
  • 1,344 posts

Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:46 PM

So is it worth RL trying to directly emulate these sports? Our game only has 2 fully pro competitions in England and Australia. How many handball and basketball leagues are fully professional? New Zealand and France are the only other nations with full time pro clubs. After that what have we got? If we try and pretend that - as of 2014 - we can produce a competitive international calendar on the scale of those you mention then we're kidding ourselves.

The long-term aim has to be to work towards this type of schedule, but that doesn't mean that tours are somehow completely irrelevant and serve no purpose. In the short term they can help to provide some meaningful international structure alongside a tournament schedule.


it doesn't matter about fully pro to start with, it will br easier for say wales for example to attract sponsorship to the club game if there is a recognisable national welsh team.....
also America could easily have a torny as us vs canada attracts big crouds....through in jamaica and a guest club and you have a four nations....

#50 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,313 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 06:58 AM

Here's a list for both basketball and handball.

Basketball

FIBA World Cup
FIBA European Championship (Euro-basket)
FIBA African Championship
FIBA Asian Championship
FIBA American Championship
FIBA Oceanian Championship

Handball

IHF World Championship
EHF European Championship
AHB African Championship
AHF Asian Championship
PAHF American Championship
OCHF Oceania Championship

 

These are all directly comparable to their soccer equivalents, that's why I consider basketball and handball in the same class as soccer.

 

The problem with reinstating tours is that in the old days they were the pinnacle of RL's international game and world cups were an afterthought, scheduled haphazardly with regular format changes.  Now that the sport has a proper world cup schedule, the world cup needs to become the pinnacle of international RL, not tours.

 

Soccer is so far ahead of every other sport it's not true.  That said, basketball and handball have a much wider global spread that the sports that anglo-saxons tend to put in their second tier (rugby [union], cricket etc).  Although cricket has India which massively skews everything.

 

Incidentally, handball may have all those championships but the Oceania one is a bit of a joke.  Australia either walkover or comfortably beat a New Zealand side every time and then qualify for a World Championship at which they are outgunned.  Still, the set-up is there and I think it would be possible via wiki, the IHF and EHF pages to identify continental and global competitions in place for both men and women (at age and senior levels) until at least the end of the next Olympic cycle.  There is a club game and a fair number of professional and semi-professional leagues (men and women) across Europe.  Germany's Bundesliga I'm pretty sure outdraws Super League in terms of average attendance and sponsorship.  You should all follow our local team Dunkerque as they fight off evil Qataris to try and win the French championship ahead of Paris St Germain and Montpellier.

 

As for lessons: the one thing I would say handball has in its favour is a coherent and consistent international set-up (which can mask a lot of issues, for e.g. the collapse of the domestic league in Spain in terms whilst Spain becomes successful internationally) - and a club competition structure that is fit for purpose.  Plus, to keep londonrlfan happy - in any territory where rights haven't been sold you can watch virtually any EHF match for free via either YouTube or EHFTV.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#51 redjonn

redjonn
  • Coach
  • 964 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:50 AM

Mind you outside of the top elite even basketball and others have a aspect of touring teams.   As regards to Rugby of both codes touring has been and continues to be a traditional that is maintained at all levels.   Even where the world cup is the pinnacle international touring helps build the team towards those pinnacles of competition and brings huge fans and media attention.  We should maintain our own traditions irrespective of other sports and ensure tours are a part of the game at all levels including top elite.


Edited by redjonn, 13 April 2014 - 10:51 AM.


#52 Railway End

Railway End
  • Coach
  • 637 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

I believe a tour to Australia is a none starter.  They are just not interested.

 

Following on from the success of the World Cup though it would be nice to get the Pacific Islands more involved in international RL.

 

Why not have a tour of New Zealand in 2015, I'm sure they would be more receptive than the Aussies.  As there is a large Islander population in NZ the tour could incorporate games against the Island teams as well, to be played throughout the country.

 

Maybe a Pacific Nations cup could be run alongside the tour featuring Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, PNG and Cook Islands, with games being held as curtain-raisers to the Lions games.

 

An itinery could be something like this:

 

Week 1
Weekend Lions v Samoa, Tonga v Cook Islands, Fiji v PNG
Mid Week Lions v Fiji
 
Week 2
Weekend Lions v NZ(First test), Tonga v Samoa, Fiji v Cook Islands
Mid Week Lions v PNG
 
Week 3
Weekend Lions v Tonga, Fiji v Samoa, Cook Islands v PNG
Mid Week Lions v Cook Islands
 
Week 4
Weekend Lions v NZ(Second test), Samoa v Cook Islands, Tonga v PNG
Mid Week Lions v NZ Mauri
 
Week 5
Weekend Lions v NZ(Third test), Tonga v Fiji, Samoa v PNG
Mid Week Lions v PNG
 
Week 6
Top 2 teams in PN Cup play in final
 

I personally think a Lions tour every 4 years is the best option.  In 2019 take it to Australia (they may be interested by then). In 2023 another tour similar to what I have suggested above in NZ but maybe the games against the Island teams could be hosted on the Islands themselves?

 

I would hold the Pacific Nations cup every year or at the least every 2 years.  This may stop players defecting to Aus & NZ.

 

Please feel free to blast holes through this idea if you think its garbage!

 


"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013


#53 redjonn

redjonn
  • Coach
  • 964 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:39 AM

I would agree in focusing on NZ, with tours to NZ and them to here.   When we tour NZ for a 3 test tour we also have "mid week" games or pre-NZ tours games against pacific island teams.   If tours prove to be big media interest plus money spinner then eventually Aussies may be interested.   I'm also assuming its up to pacific island nations if they want a pacific island competition. The tours being icing on the cake whether they are around the same time or different times of the year.

 

Of course when NZ tour here for a x3 test tour they also have "mid week" team games against France, and home nations, etc

 

Nothing new here, its what works extremely well in that other Rugby code we don't like to imitate, even if it makes sense as well for our game.


Edited by redjonn, 13 April 2014 - 11:56 AM.


#54 Railway End

Railway End
  • Coach
  • 637 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:55 AM

I would agree in focusing on NZ, with tours to NZ and them to here.   When we tour NZ for a 3 test tour we also have "mid week" games or pre-NZ tours games against pacific island teams.   If tours prove to be big media interest plus money spinner then eventually Aussies may be interested.   I'm also assuming its up to pacific island nations if they want a pacific island competition. The tours being icing on the cake whether they are around the same time or different times of the year.

 

It's my understanding that the Pacific Island teams have had a limited number of games against each other due to the financial constraints involved.  None of them have much cash to throw about.  Remember the proposed Samoan tour to this country the other year that was scrapped due to funding issues.

 

Running a Pacific Nations Cup alongside a Lions tour would kill 2 birds with one stone.  It would reduce costs if double (or even triple) header events are scheduled in the same stadium.  Stadiums are more likely to be full if 4 (or 6) sets of fans attend the same event.

 

The island teams provided some of the best rugby and best memories from last years World Cup.  Are we going to do the usual trick of saying "Thanks for coming, see you again in 4 years time!"


"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013


#55 yipyee

yipyee
  • Coach
  • 1,344 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

I believe a tour to Australia is a none starter. They are just not interested.

Following on from the success of the World Cup though it would be nice to get the Pacific Islands more involved in international RL.

Why not have a tour of New Zealand in 2015, I'm sure they would be more receptive than the Aussies. As there is a large Islander population in NZ the tour could incorporate games against the Island teams as well, to be played throughout the country.

Maybe a Pacific Nations cup could be run alongside the tour featuring Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, PNG and Cook Islands, with games being held as curtain-raisers to the Lions games.

An itinery could be something like this:

Week 1
Weekend Lions v Samoa, Tonga v Cook Islands, Fiji v PNG
Mid Week Lions v Fiji

Week 2
Weekend Lions v NZ(First test), Tonga v Samoa, Fiji v Cook Islands
Mid Week Lions v PNG

Week 3
Weekend Lions v Tonga, Fiji v Samoa, Cook Islands v PNG
Mid Week Lions v Cook Islands

Week 4
Weekend Lions v NZ(Second test), Samoa v Cook Islands, Tonga v PNG
Mid Week Lions v NZ Mauri

Week 5
Weekend Lions v NZ(Third test), Tonga v Fiji, Samoa v PNG
Mid Week Lions v PNG

Week 6
Top 2 teams in PN Cup play in final

I personally think a Lions tour every 4 years is the best option. In 2019 take it to Australia (they may be interested by then). In 2023 another tour similar to what I have suggested above in NZ but maybe the games against the Island teams could be hosted on the Islands themselves?

I would hold the Pacific Nations cup every year or at the least every 2 years. This may stop players defecting to Aus & NZ.

Please feel free to blast holes through this idea if you think its garbage!


I dont think that this would be financially viable......

Tours are outdated and the ru lions only tour a country once a every 12 years, and there tours are also outdated....

#56 yipyee

yipyee
  • Coach
  • 1,344 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 01:23 PM

It's my understanding that the Pacific Island teams have had a limited number of games against each other due to the financial constraints involved. None of them have much cash to throw about. Remember the proposed Samoan tour to this country the other year that was scrapped due to funding issues.

Running a Pacific Nations Cup alongside a Lions tour would kill 2 birds with one stone. It would reduce costs if double (or even triple) header events are scheduled in the same stadium. Stadiums are more likely to be full if 4 (or 6) sets of fans attend the same event.

The island teams provided some of the best rugby and best memories from last years World Cup. Are we going to do the usual trick of saying "Thanks for coming, see you again in 4 years time!"


if it's not financially viable for 2 teams to play in a stadium why would it be for 4?

#57 JM2010

JM2010
  • Coach
  • 157 posts

Posted 13 April 2014 - 06:31 PM

That's why I would like to see a European Championship and an Oceania Championship in RL. I'm going to keep banging on about it until the RLIF decide to have one!


I agree but I would have it as NH and SH so there is the potential to include more teams. They could be played in 2015 with the top 2/3 teams qualifying for 2016 4/6 nations. There could be more regional type competitions mid season which could be used as qualifiers for the NH and SH competitions.

Edited by JM2010, 13 April 2014 - 06:40 PM.


#58 gutterfax

gutterfax
  • Coach
  • 330 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:04 AM

I dont think that this would be financially viable......

Tours are outdated and the ru lions only tour a country once a every 12 years, and there tours are also outdated....

 

The B&I Lions tour of Australia in 2013 attracted 389,390 fans to 9 games at an average of 43,265. The Tour was worth a reported au$40,000,000 to the ARU and helped wipe out a massive deficit that they were carrying. The estimated touring tourists numbered 30,000, ploughing millions in cash into the local economy, whilst SKY TV in the UK reported a peak audience of over 1 million for the final test at 10am on a Saturday morning whilst that game was the 3rd highest FTA TV show that day in Australia after 2 news bulletins as well as attracting another 427,000 on Pay TV as well. Oh...and 250,000 Kiwis tuned in as well. The tour was also covered live in Ireland, France, the USA, Italy, SA and around the world.

HSBC sponsor the team, along with partners Adidas, Microsoft, Thomas Pink, Qantas, Gilbert and DHL.

The 2013 Tour cost £14,000,000 to run (including £45k each for the players) but generated a profit of over £4,000,000 for the 4 nations Unions.

 

Please...define outdated?



#59 Johnoco

Johnoco
  • Coach
  • 20,158 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:33 AM

I wouldn't give a hoot if it was outdated or not if we could get sponsors like those and such like. The reality is though that we never have and that is unlikely to change.

And its also pointless comparing us with RU.

#60 gutterfax

gutterfax
  • Coach
  • 330 posts

Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

I wouldn't give a hoot if it was outdated or not if we could get sponsors like those and such like. The reality is though that we never have and that is unlikely to change.

And its also pointless comparing us with RU.

I simply pointed out that "their" tours were not outdated as claimed....even a loon like me can see that the comparison between the codes in this case is pointless.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users