Jump to content





Photo
- - - - -

Is a new power rising in the Championship


  • Please log in to reply
89 replies to this topic

#61 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,010 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:19 PM

What a great post. The SL as is now and forever version of history seriously gets up my nose. Thanks for articulating an alternative history so excellently.

 

Thank you.

 

It's just not obvious to some people that sports just like society mature, even after radical events. Under these circumstances what we take for granted now was a luxury to our parents. Whether that is a benefit is another matter.

 

In the case of our game, SL has driven a wedge into the future that all clubs can benefit from. The regimes that full time professional clubs required have seen people developed and trained to a certain standard that is cheaper to access. Thus John Kear works at Batley not Hull, and just because he works part time doesn't make his contribution less valuable. Back in 1995, those resources would have been very costly but not now. 

 

The deciding factor to success is therefore the quality of the players that bigger clubs can afford, but so long as high quality coaching exists for little money then the smaller clubs still have a chance to develop their own. Again in 1995 the cost of this resource made the differences a chasm but not now. 

 

Being full time is somehow seen as the be all and end all but like I said above the Championship clubs have access to some pretty good part time geniuses who know how to coach and develop players.

 

They may have a smaller squad (a factor), but what they may achieve will be fascinating to watch.


Edited by Ackroman, 16 July 2014 - 03:20 PM.


#62 DemonUK

DemonUK
  • Coach
  • 309 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:33 PM

When Donny do it without established Hull players then the congratulations will mean something. Miller - international, Crooks - SL dream team ......

Sorry folks, no forecast comp this year


#63 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 6,065 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:43 PM

Thank you.

 

It's just not obvious to some people that sports just like society mature, even after radical events. Under these circumstances what we take for granted now was a luxury to our parents. Whether that is a benefit is another matter.

 

In the case of our game, SL has driven a wedge into the future that all clubs can benefit from. The regimes that full time professional clubs required have seen people developed and trained to a certain standard that is cheaper to access. Thus John Kear works at Batley not Hull, and just because he works part time doesn't make his contribution less valuable. Back in 1995, those resources would have been very costly but not now. 

 

The deciding factor to success is therefore the quality of the players that bigger clubs can afford, but so long as high quality coaching exists for little money then the smaller clubs still have a chance to develop their own. Again in 1995 the cost of this resource made the differences a chasm but not now. 

 

Being full time is somehow seen as the be all and end all but like I said above the Championship clubs have access to some pretty good part time geniuses who know how to coach and develop players.

 

They may have a smaller squad (a factor), but what they may achieve will be fascinating to watch.

 

I agree with you. Powell moved from Fev to Cas and took Finn with him and look where both the team, the coach and the player are now. Batley have had Harrison and now Kear and consistently punch above their weight, making the playoffs, winning the Northern Rail cup and scaring the bejesus out of several SL clubs in the cup. They have also produced several players who are now SL regulars.

 

Aston at Sheffield has worked wonders with no name players and his resume, as a player and a coach is well worthy of a SL coaching appointment.

 

I think London and Bradford will have to be at the top of their game or the Championship standards will jump up and bite them.



#64 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 6,065 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:46 PM

When Donny do it without established Hull players then the congratulations will mean something. Miller - international, Crooks - SL dream team ......

 

So when Wigan have several London, Bradford and Wakefield produced players in their ranks, it's OK but when Doncaster do something similar it's something to be sneered at. It's to Doncaster's credit that they currently get more out of these Hull based players than FC were able to do. 



#65 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,759 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:57 PM

To be hone st, it does not see m to me. That there is much "power" in the championship....nor in Superleague. Donny are averaging about 750, fev are averaging 2120, leigh 2320.well done to those clubs for what they have archived but "power"? No.

As for giving them more money? Oh that is so risky....

#66 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,759 posts

Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

To be honest, it does not seem to me That there is much "power" in the championship....nor in some clubs in superleague. Donny are averaging about 750, fev are averaging 2120, leigh 2320.well done to those clubs for what they have archived but "power"? No.
As for giving them more money? Oh that is so risky....



#67 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 6,065 posts

Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:14 AM

To be hone st, it does not see m to me. That there is much "power" in the championship....nor in Superleague. Donny are averaging about 750, fev are averaging 2120, leigh 2320.well done to those clubs for what they have archived but "power"? No.

As for giving them more money? Oh that is so risky....

 

My original post was as regards Doncaster emerging as a top performing Championship club, i.e. a power team in that league. Attendances and SL membership were not part of my definition of power as I was posting. However  if you want to include all these things in the definition, then that is a different story.



#68 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,720 posts

Posted 17 July 2014 - 01:47 PM

When Donny do it without established Hull players then the congratulations will mean something. Miller - international, Crooks - SL dream team ......

 

Maybe "Well done Donny" would be a better title than "Powerhouse". Or maybe even "Loan system comes up trumps at dual reg club". 



#69 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,010 posts

Posted 17 July 2014 - 02:07 PM

Maybe "Well done Donny" would be a better title than "Powerhouse". Or maybe even "Loan system comes up trumps at dual reg club". 

 

That's not the title. It says "Power". A definition of power is to influence outcomes and clearly Donny are doing that.

 

If you're going to be a pedant get your facts right.



#70 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 42,694 posts

Posted 17 July 2014 - 05:44 PM

That's not the title. It says "Power". A definition of power is to influence outcomes and clearly Donny are doing that.



If you're I'm Cristine now.going to be a pedant get your facts right.

A pedant writes:
If he didn't get his facts right he wouldn't be a pedant
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#71 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 2,010 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:48 AM

A pedant writes:
If he didn't get his facts right he wouldn't be a pedant

 

What? The guy was using a fictitious title to make a point.

 

I think I'll stop off here for a bit if this is an attempt at intellect. 



#72 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,720 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:54 AM

A pedant writes:
If he didn't get his facts right he wouldn't be a pedant

 

Indeed Ange, but the thread is about the power of Doncaster (the derailing into dictionary definitions helped avoid the truth) as supposedly proven by a victory over Leigh. In championship terms Donny have indeed risen through the championship, but it is worthwhile looking at how this power comes about and Demon really put his finger on it.

 

Doncaster are a lovely little club in a soccer city and have been for over 60 years in which they have not grown "organically" at all. They have one good junior club in Toll Bar and Ian Kirke was from there. Their existence as with a number of clubs is based on feeding off Superleague. The coach was one of Hull's great players and he's come into Doncaster and added to a journeyman team from various places, a strong core of Hull players who have either stepped down to Championship to continue a paid career, or have found themselves in Doncaster on dual registration.

 

Although we are not shouting about it as we did last year it looks like the Championship as Superleague's "A" team league is actually here to stay. If "A" teams are "a power" then that's fine by me.

 

We've previously had Crusaders bulled up as growing into a power when in fact they adopted a policy of buying up players released from the big Lancashire SL clubs. We've had Featherstone (as you know) hailed as the "Right way to do it" but exposed as just another small club who found some money in the shape of Mark Campbell and then Faisal Nahaboo. 

 

Leigh are clearly the next big championship hope. Full salary cap and 10,000 crowds I am told, with backers getting on board quicker than commuters on a rush hour tube train. Heard it all before, and of course the wonderful Leigh's problem is overcoming their two junior clubs feeding Wigan Wire an Saints first, which leaves them just like Doncaster, having to to build a side with a core of of ex-Wigan & Saints players, and recently Wigan loanees which IIRC they started getting into.

 

I've no argument with the fine fellows on this thread, but the move to P & R by the RFL hailed as the saviour of the game really does take the biscuit. The RFL know full well - because they accommodated it - that the championship clubs are quasi "A" teams, and in failing to fund them (Remember when the Leigh's and Donny's were hoping for annual lumps of SKY cash?) the RFL's inaction means they are happy for them to stay like that.

 

Mindst you there's a big prize money bribe for a couple of Championship clubs to make up the number in the new "second tier" leaving the new 8 club Superleague richer. The problem for most championship clubs though is something many clear headed thinkers not over excited into fantasy thinking by the very phrase "P & R" were constantly warning of in that  the likes of Keighley, Workington, Swinton, Rochdale, Barrow, Leigh, Doncaster, Batley, sheffield whitehaven and dewsbury, if they ended up being third tier clubs outside the sixteen (of which most will), would be badly damaged. Heaven help those in the new fourth tier.

 

Do we really think the new P & R will end in a stronger Championship? This is a sport and there will be winners and losers, but in say 3 years time will the "powers" of Leigh and Donny really end up winners by this move? 



#73 Jemmo

Jemmo
  • Coach
  • 515 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

Can I just add that no one at Doncaster is bigging up their status in the division or the sport.

 

In a history that has been on the whole seen too few positive defining moments we are just happy for this ride at the moment. Winning more games than we're losing is still a relative novelty to us despite our success over the last 3 seasons. We all know damn well, we got lucky in getting our hands on Paul Cooke who has been one of the best players outside of SL for the last 3 seasons and is turning out to be one of the better coaches at this level also (albeit in a limited period of time); in fact the best thing about the win of Leigh for me is that we did it without PC. So those of us who have been here for a while are enjoying it while we can, a measure of our success for me is still to be mid table championship side for the foreseeable future.

 

I often see it said that Doncaster is a football town/city. It isn't. As a town it is massively apathetic to sport of all kinds. The crowds at the Rovers are very poor, considering the 3 promotions in 5 years and a brand new stadium, a town of our size should be filling it. We have one of the best young boxers in Britain at the moment fighting from Doncaster, the Keepmoat held his title fight and it didn't sell out. It should have.

 

It needs to be noted that, until the Rovers recent relegation, Doncaster was one of only three places along with London and Leeds to have a Football, RL and RU team in the top 2 tiers of their sports so what interest there is is spread thin. In Doncaster there are sports fans; a good proportion of them just watch football and a good proportion of them watch Sheffield United/Wednesday and Leeds. Of the rest of the limited number of sports fans some are Rugby Union fans. And of those that remain there are Rugby League fans; many of which support Leeds, Castleford and even Featherstone because they grew up in an era when quite simply, those teams were significantly better than their local side. This leaves a very small pool of Doncaster Rugby League fans and that is what is there now. I am old enough to remember the Dons getting crowds of 3k plus but most of them now fall within the other camps.



#74 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,720 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:46 AM

Can I just add that no one at Doncaster is bigging up their status in the division or the sport.

 

In a history that has been on the whole seen too few positive defining moments we are just happy for this ride at the moment. Winning more games than we're losing is still a relative novelty to us despite our success over the last 3 seasons. We all know damn well, we got lucky in getting our hands on Paul Cooke who has been one of the best players outside of SL for the last 3 seasons and is turning out to be one of the better coaches at this level also (albeit in a limited period of time); in fact the best thing about the win of Leigh for me is that we did it without PC. So those of us who have been here for a while are enjoying it while we can, a measure of our success for me is still to be mid table championship side for the foreseeable future.

 

I often see it said that Doncaster is a football town/city. It isn't. As a town it is massively apathetic to sport of all kinds. The crowds at the Rovers are very poor, considering the 3 promotions in 5 years and a brand new stadium, a town of our size should be filling it. We have one of the best young boxers in Britain at the moment fighting from Doncaster, the Keepmoat held his title fight and it didn't sell out. It should have.

 

It needs to be noted that, until the Rovers recent relegation, Doncaster was one of only three places along with London and Leeds to have a Football, RL and RU team in the top 2 tiers of their sports so what interest there is is spread thin. In Doncaster there are sports fans; a good proportion of them just watch football and a good proportion of them watch Sheffield United/Wednesday and Leeds. Of the rest of the limited number of sports fans some are Rugby Union fans. And of those that remain there are Rugby League fans; many of which support Leeds, Castleford and even Featherstone because they grew up in an era when quite simply, those teams were significantly better than their local side. This leaves a very small pool of Doncaster Rugby League fans and that is what is there now. I am old enough to remember the Dons getting crowds of 3k plus but most of them now fall within the other camps.

 

Jemmo, you can add posts like that all day as they are honest and informative. No axe to grind, loved the post.

 

I was the one to call Doncaster a soccer town (hands up) I did this based on the history of Sheffield rules and the development of soccer across places like Sheffield, Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley all of which led to keeping RL from the doorstep over 100 years ago. 

 

My definition is soccer is as big in Donny as RL is small. isn't that also true when you yourself state that although it does not manifest itself as 20,000 crowds for Rovers you say "In Doncaster there are sports fans; a good proportion of them just watch football and a good proportion of them watch Sheffield United/Wednesday and Leeds"

 

So Donny people are big for soccer albeit not always rovers?? Am I right that the main junior RL club is Toll Bar? I guess there are dozens of Junior soccer clubs in Doncaster in contrast?

 

The other interesting observation you have linked to the above is that people will travel to watch top class sport. To justify the importance of Championship clubs I am often told that nobody from Halifax would watch Bradford and nobody from Leigh would watch Wigan and nobody from Keighley would watch Bradford either.

 

I think you have killed a ludicrous argument there Your honest assessment blows this out of the water.


Edited by The Parksider, 18 July 2014 - 09:51 AM.


#75 Jemmo

Jemmo
  • Coach
  • 515 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:37 AM

Yes, fair point. Doncaster is a much bigger football town than a Rugby League town. A fact made depressingly worse by the fact those who are interested do travel for a winning side.

 

People will travel anywhere for their top class sporting fix, every saturday a bus leaves Doncaster for Old Trafford, or Anfield. I know people who are Bath RU season ticket holders and live in Doncaster



#76 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,759 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:26 PM

http://www.dailymail...-collapses.html



#77 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,759 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

Yes, fair point. Doncaster is a much bigger football town than a Rugby League town. A fact made depressingly worse by the fact those who are interested do travel for a winning side.

 

People will travel anywhere for their top class sporting fix, every saturday a bus leaves Doncaster for Old Trafford, or Anfield. I know people who are Bath RU season ticket holders and live in Doncaste

 

what is the point you are making?



#78 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 42,694 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:31 PM

What? The guy was using a fictitious title to make a point.

 

I think I'll stop off here for a bit if this is an attempt at intellect. 

mate I was being a little skittish, you know adding a bit of levity. 


WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#79 GeordieSaint

GeordieSaint
  • Coach
  • 5,053 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:37 PM

I see Doncaster have signed Pas Dunn from Leicester Tigers RU club:

http://www.doncaster...eicester-tigers

I think Kings Lynn RLFC can claim that as their first professional player as Pas' dad is our coach and he has played for the club on numerous occasions. Well done Pas!

Kings Lynn Black Knights Rugby League Club - http://www.pitchero....nnblackknights/


#80 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,759 posts

Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:41 PM

mate I was being a little skittish, you know adding a bit of levity. 

 

How very dare you!  :biggrin:






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users