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That hybrid game England vs Wallabies - December 6?


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#21 Tiny Tim

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:00 PM

That's right - it would be a challenge for any sports team to play an elite international team at that team's sport.  Basically, just changing the term union rules to hybrid rules is hardly a concession by the union side.  In fact, adopting RL rules and calling it hybrid rules would still not be that great a concession because the union team are not being required to learn any new core skills.     Any hybrid game, short of playing RL, is a disadvantage to League players and a clear advantage to union players..

 

I fully understand the reluctance of the league guys, this would simply be asking too much of them. Whilst there are a few folk in the Wallabies side with league experience I can't see them agreeing to a game under league rules either.


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#22 Middleton Bull

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:11 PM

I fully understand the reluctance of the league guys, this would simply be asking too much of them. Whilst there are a few folk in the Wallabies side with league experience I can't see them agreeing to a game under league rules either.

TT - I can see exactly what you are trying to suggest.  However, it would be simply asking too much of any sportsperson to attempt to play elite members of another sport at that sport.  Ironically, it would also be simply asking too much of union players to attempt to play elite League players at League, even though they would not, in theory, be required to learn any new core skills to enable them to participate.



#23 longboard

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:14 PM

The crass code forum is the right place for this crock o ######.

 

Is this a reference to a fellow poster, the thread, or the rumoured cross code match?



#24 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:45 AM

TT - I can see exactly what you are trying to suggest. However, it would be simply asking too much of any sportsperson to attempt to play elite members of another sport at that sport. Ironically, it would also be simply asking too much of union players to attempt to play elite League players at League, even though they would not, in theory, be required to learn any new core skills to enable them to participate.

They wouldn't? I think that's a bit ignorant of the skills involved in rugby league.
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#25 Middleton Bull

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 06:07 AM

They wouldn't? I think that's a bit ignorant of the skills involved in rugby league.

I did say in theory.  The way those skills are executed and deployed for far greater periods of time in a faster and more intense environment (RL) is the difference.



#26 Tiny Tim

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:34 AM

TT - I can see exactly what you are trying to suggest.  However, it would be simply asking too much of any sportsperson to attempt to play elite members of another sport at that sport.  Ironically, it would also be simply asking too much of union players to attempt to play elite League players at League, even though they would not, in theory, be required to learn any new core skills to enable them to participate.

 

Exactly what I said, but thank you for putting it in your own words.


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#27 Tiny Tim

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

I did say in theory.  The way those skills are executed and deployed for far greater periods of time in a faster and more intense environment (RL) is the difference.

 

Exactly, in RU play flows continuously tackle after tackle whereas in league play stops and defences reform after every tackle. A very different mindset and players moving in both directions have shown that it takes time to adapt completely to the different demands of the two codes. No doubt these elite athletes can give it a good go when they first try the rival code and if they have the basics in place they can contribute but learning to play either code takes a good deal of time.


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#28 ckn

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:42 AM

I still don't get it.  They are two separate sports that have a few areas of overlap and a shared heritage.  Playing a cross-code game is a gimmick, nothing more.  The winner has proven nothing except that they can exploit their code's intricacies more effectively to score points quickly while disrupting the other code in their half.

 

Winning the toss is vitally important though and they could probably end the game there as it'll most likely decide the game.  For the rugby league side, persistent dummy-half runs will have the union side puffing very quickly with the back 10 at PTB as that requires a completely different fitness setup to union, drive them back and hope the ref isn't being lenient on their offsides.  For the union side, persistent mauls, snap rucks and the shoulders in line with hips forwards drives will have the rugby league forwards regretting getting on the field while the backs wonder if they've forgotten to bring the ball on the field.  If the union side tries the centre crash-ball tactic in either half, they'll be eaten alive by the rugby league side that nullified that tactic nearly 20 years ago.  If the rugby league side try to run into tackles upright in the union half, aiming for offloads and quick next phase ball, they'll be smothered in mauls and be persistently turning over the ball.

 

In short, both sides will have to play the least attractive bits of their brand of rugby to win their half by a large enough margin to effectively nullify the other half.  Not exactly spectator friendly.


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#29 Futtocks

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:55 AM



I still don't get it.  They are two separate sports that have a few areas of overlap and a shared heritage.  Playing a cross-code game is a gimmick, nothing more.  The winner has proven nothing except that they can exploit their code's intricacies more effectively to score points quickly while disrupting the other code in their half.

 

Winning the toss is vitally important though and they could probably end the game there as it'll most likely decide the game.  For the rugby league side, persistent dummy-half runs will have the union side puffing very quickly with the back 10 at PTB as that requires a completely different fitness setup to union, drive them back and hope the ref isn't being lenient on their offsides.  For the union side, persistent mauls, snap rucks and the shoulders in line with hips forwards drives will have the rugby league forwards regretting getting on the field while the backs wonder if they've forgotten to bring the ball on the field.  If the union side tries the centre crash-ball tactic in either half, they'll be eaten alive by the rugby league side that nullified that tactic nearly 20 years ago.  If the rugby league side try to run into tackles upright in the union half, aiming for offloads and quick next phase ball, they'll be smothered in mauls and be persistently turning over the ball.

 

 

In short, both sides will have to play the least attractive bits of their brand of rugby to win their half by a large enough margin to effectively nullify the other half.  Not exactly spectator friendly.

That penultimate sentence just nutshells the whole thing. Well put.


Edited by Futtocks, 09 May 2014 - 08:56 AM.

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#30 nadera78

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 08:56 AM

I do wish the RFL would simply come out and put a stop to this nonsense once and for all. Say they're not doing it and we won't have to put up with this ###### over and over again.


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#31 Middleton Bull

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:02 AM

Exactly what I said, but thank you for putting it in your own words.

That's ok - I just brought some context into what you said to offset any misinterpretation



#32 longboard

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:15 AM

The limitations noted above provide good reasons why I wouldn't pay to watch a cross code game. Maybe a cross code game could raise money for the participating games' authorities but a gimmick is a gimmick............

 

I have seen International Rules Gaelic Football vs Aussie Rules matches on TV and the games are fundamentally unsatisfactory and not great to watch, a bit like the Wigan vs Bath matches.



#33 Shadow

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:44 PM

The limitations noted above provide good reasons why I wouldn't pay to watch a cross code game. Maybe a cross code game could raise money for the participating games' authorities but a gimmick is a gimmick............

 

I have seen International Rules Gaelic Football vs Aussie Rules matches on TV and the games are fundamentally unsatisfactory and not great to watch, a bit like the Wigan vs Bath matches.

I disagree with some of what you said there, fundamentally I agree that the whole idea is a waste of time that will prove nothing however....

 

I was in Dublin a few years ago and caught the International Rules match between Australia and Ireland, as an outsider whose only experience of either Gaelic Football or Aussie rules was once going to see the Sydney Swans play when I was in Australia in 1983 I thought it was brilliant, a punch up started between the two teams as they walked out from the dressing rooms, they had "Siobhan, will you marry Declan" on the big TV screen before the game started and "Yes I will" at half time and best of all a Dog ran on the pitch and took half the players to catch it. And the Aussies lost. I had tried an awful lot of Guinness by the time the match finished mind you.

 

Wigan v Bath was different in as far as it was a symbolic moment and an eye opener to many RU fans like myself, I remember saying before the first (League) match that I thought Wigan were going to get a bit of shock and that I wouldn't be surprised if Bath ran them close. It showed the massive gap in fitness levels and conditioning between what was essentially full time professionals on the one side and semi-pro / committed amateurs on the other and it showed the massive difference in skills in open play and probably heavily contributed to the rush to sign Rugby League talent by RU clubs in the following few years.

 

That said I see no benefit at all in repeating the exercise.


Edited by Shadow, 09 May 2014 - 01:45 PM.

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#34 Middleton Bull

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:14 PM

I disagree with some of what you said there, fundamentally I agree that the whole idea is a waste of time that will prove nothing however....

 

I was in Dublin a few years ago and caught the International Rules match between Australia and Ireland, as an outsider whose only experience of either Gaelic Football or Aussie rules was once going to see the Sydney Swans play when I was in Australia in 1983 I thought it was brilliant, a punch up started between the two teams as they walked out from the dressing rooms, they had "Siobhan, will you marry Declan" on the big TV screen before the game started and "Yes I will" at half time and best of all a Dog ran on the pitch and took half the players to catch it. And the Aussies lost. I had tried an awful lot of Guinness by the time the match finished mind you.

 

Wigan v Bath was different in as far as it was a symbolic moment and an eye opener to many RU fans like myself, I remember saying before the first (League) match that I thought Wigan were going to get a bit of shock and that I wouldn't be surprised if Bath ran them close. It showed the massive gap in fitness levels and conditioning between what was essentially full time professionals on the one side and semi-pro / committed amateurs on the other and it showed the massive difference in skills in open play and probably heavily contributed to the rush to sign Rugby League talent by RU clubs in the following few years.

 

That said I see no benefit at all in repeating the exercise.

I agree with most of what you said there but Bath were not amateurs / semi pro in April '96.  They were at the end of their first season as honestly full time pro's.



#35 Shadow

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:18 PM

I agree with most of what you said there but Bath were not amateurs / semi pro in April '96.  They were at the end of their first season as honestly full time pro's.

If you say so.


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#36 Middleton Bull

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:25 PM

If you say so.

I do - I'm sure you would want to be accurate in your missives



#37 ckn

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:08 PM

On this, I'll agree with Shadow.  Just paying players a good wage does not turn them from semi-pro to pro standard overnight.  It took union until about 2000 before the players became quite professional and I'd say mid 2000s before the worst of the semi-pro excesses had been beaten out of them by the clubs expecting professional standards.


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#38 Tiny Tim

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:29 PM

......and I'd say mid 2000s before the worst of the semi-pro excesses had been beaten out of them by the clubs expecting professional standards.

 

So about 486 years to go by your reckoning (2500 AD)?


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#39 ckn

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:38 PM

So about 486 years to go by your reckoning (2500 AD)?

2000s as in the decade, not millenium....  *sigh*


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#40 Middleton Bull

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 04:35 PM

On this, I'll agree with Shadow.  Just paying players a good wage does not turn them from semi-pro to pro standard overnight.  It took union until about 2000 before the players became quite professional and I'd say mid 2000s before the worst of the semi-pro excesses had been beaten out of them by the clubs expecting professional standards.

I agree that they were just developing as honest professionals but they were, nevertheless, full time pro's and not part - time / amateur as Shadow suggests.  That is the reason the game went ahead because the RFU finally admitted to professionalism.  It's been discussed many times before but the Wigan team only became full time pro's three or four seasons earlier than union and the rest of the top League sides followed over the next few years..