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Food banks and benefit scroungers


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#1 ckn

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 10:17 PM

Just watch it...

 


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#2 Griff9of13

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:32 AM

I found that quite moving. Thanks for sharing.
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#3 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:34 AM

You know, in the past people like Dennis Skinner and Tony Ben have been referred to as dinosaurs. These people want us to go back to the 1960's when this country had a social contract between the employers and employees, working conditions were protected and a lot of large firms offered good pension schemes, social clubs for the workers etc.

These people aren't dinosaurs, the dinosaurs are the current right wing Tories who want the UK work place to go back to 200 years to the start of the industrial revolution when the mill owners held all the power in the work place, and people were forced into a subsistence wage slavery. We are not there yet, but this vilification of anybody who dares to ask for help or the continued acceptance of the erosion of workplace protection does not sit well in 2014.

#4 WearyRhino

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:36 AM

Just watch it...


Thanks for that Craig, possibly the most powerful 'political' speech I've ever heard. I have tears rolling down my face.

LUNEW.jpg


#5 Johnoco

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:45 AM

I concur with Bostiks post. Sadly though, the main reason we have few firms with things like social clubs etc is that so many of the big factories that used to employ thousands of people on decent wages for semi skilled work are just not there. The ones that remain have one person doing 3 other jobs, pay less money and the idea of concern for employees, despite huge noises about H&S, stretches to ensuring they wear a hi vis jacket so if they get squashed by a forklift truck the company is clear.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#6 Trojan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:25 AM

You know, in the past people like Dennis Skinner and Tony Ben have been referred to as dinosaurs. These people want us to go back to the 1960's when this country had a social contract between the employers and employees, working conditions were protected and a lot of large firms offered good pension schemes, social clubs for the workers etc.

These people aren't dinosaurs, the dinosaurs are the current right wing Tories who want the UK work place to go back to 200 years to the start of the industrial revolution when the mill owners held all the power in the work place, and people were forced into a subsistence wage slavery. We are not there yet, but this vilification of anybody who dares to ask for help or the continued acceptance of the erosion of workplace protection does not sit well in 2014.

I think the last Labour government also have a lot to answer for. OK they accepted the Thatcherite  settlement. OK they ran the economy in a fairer way, so that money was spent on the NHS, benefits, and social services, but they did nothing to restore the system to what it had been before 1979.  They decided that Thatcher had been right and that they'd better try and run the system as-is.  But what happened in 2008 proves Thatcher was wrong, the market isn't always right.  And it gave this lot the opportunity to come in again and restore the economy at the expense of the less well off, whilst blaming "Labour's mess."

 

The Tories came in 1945 and accepted the 1945 settlement.  It continued for 34 years until Thatcher came in and dismantled it.  It's time for another major change.  If Labour get in next year I'll be furious if they don't try and make changes that will benefit the majority of British citizens rather than the tiny minority who own everything.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#7 ckn

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:10 AM

If Labour get in next year I'll be furious if they don't try and make changes that will benefit the majority of British citizens rather than the tiny minority who own everything.

But they won't.  Their current shadow minister in charge of such things said within a week of being appointed that she intends to be harder than the Tories on benefits claimants when Labour get into power.  Not benefit fraudsters or similar, benefit claimants.

 

I just don't get it why Labour are going this way.  The reason Gordon Brown didn't win in 2010 is that too many core Labour voters didn't vote Labour and "agreed with Nick", it wasn't the marginal Labour/Tory voters they lost; it was many of their core.  I'm one of them.  Everything about my personal preferences screams that I should be voting for Labour based on what they say they are but they've too many MPs who just follow focus group findings without challenging the make-up of those focus groups.  If Labour took themselves to the place of the Blair campaign in 1997 with the same pledges then they'd win by a landslide, the Tories would go backwards and Lib Dems would be annihilated with the return of the defectors.  If Labour took themselves to the place of the John Smith leadership then i'd be even happier.

 

On the main subject itself and as a message to Labour, one of the things that always comes out about benefits is that it would be too expensive to ensure everyone in the UK was fed by the state.  Really?  We can spend £10bn on ID cards, £40bn on fighting in Afghanistan, £20bn fighting in Iraq, cut £1bn a year from top-end tax income, £40bn on HS2, and so on but we can't try to ensure that no-one will go without food in a day.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#8 Trojan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:37 PM

But they won't.  Their current shadow minister in charge of such things said within a week of being appointed that she intends to be harder than the Tories on benefits claimants when Labour get into power.  Not benefit fraudsters or similar, benefit claimants.

 

I just don't get it why Labour are going this way.  The reason Gordon Brown didn't win in 2010 is that too many core Labour voters didn't vote Labour and "agreed with Nick", it wasn't the marginal Labour/Tory voters they lost; it was many of their core.  I'm one of them.  Everything about my personal preferences screams that I should be voting for Labour based on what they say they are but they've too many MPs who just follow focus group findings without challenging the make-up of those focus groups.  If Labour took themselves to the place of the Blair campaign in 1997 with the same pledges then they'd win by a landslide, the Tories would go backwards and Lib Dems would be annihilated with the return of the defectors.  If Labour took themselves to the place of the John Smith leadership then i'd be even happier.

 

On the main subject itself and as a message to Labour, one of the things that always comes out about benefits is that it would be too expensive to ensure everyone in the UK was fed by the state.  Really?  We can spend £10bn on ID cards, £40bn on fighting in Afghanistan, £20bn fighting in Iraq, cut £1bn a year from top-end tax income, £40bn on HS2, and so on but we can't try to ensure that no-one will go without food in a day.

"This is a very wealthy country"  "Money is no object"


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"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#9 ckn

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 01:52 PM

"This is a very wealthy country"  "Money is no object"

Except if you're poor or not likely to vote Tory.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#10 Trojan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:12 PM

Cameron, answering questions about food banks recently, asserted that their use had increased 10 fold under Labour, And as far as it goes, it's true, in 2005 (according to the Trussell Trust) between 2004/5 and 2009/10 they increase from 2000, to 40,000.  What he omitted to say was that since then during the life of this government they have increased from 40,000 to just short of 1m.  And that's just the Trussell Trust, there are no figures for other foodbanks.  All for this desire to clean up "Labour's mess"  The deficit which was lower in 2008 than it was in 1997.  The deficit which could probably have been cured by the growth in the economy when he came to power, plus the measures already taken.  No real need to increase VAT, no need to cut benefits in the way they've been cut, and no need to see people starving, except of course for Osborne's master plan to "clear up the mess" and take electoral credit for doing so.  He gets the credit, those who can least bear it get the pain.  That's the Tory way, always has been always will be.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#11 ckn

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:18 PM

Cameron, answering questions about food banks recently, asserted that their use had increased 10 fold under Labour, And as far as it goes, it's true, in 2005 (according to the Trussell Trust) between 2004/5 and 2009/10 they increase from 2000, to 40,000.  What he omitted to say was that since then during the life of this government they have increased from 40,000 to just short of 1m.  And that's just the Trussell Trust, there are no figures for other foodbanks.  All for this desire to clean up "Labour's mess"  The deficit which was lower in 2008 than it was in 1997.  The deficit which could probably have been cured by the growth in the economy when he came to power, plus the measures already taken.  No real need to increase VAT, no need to cut benefits in the way they've been cut, and no need to see people starving, except of course for Osborne's master plan to "clear up the mess" and take electoral credit for doing so.  He gets the credit, those who can least bear it get the pain.  That's the Tory way, always has been always will be.

I agree with that but where's the Labour party MPs in saying the same thing?  The only fight that they seem to want to have is with their union backers these days.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#12 shrek

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:36 PM

Thanks for sharing and thank goodness for people like Denis Curran and the many others like him running the many initiatives like this up and down the country.


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#13 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

I think the last Labour government also have a lot to answer for. OK they accepted the Thatcherite  settlement. OK they ran the economy in a fairer way, so that money was spent on the NHS, benefits, and social services, but they did nothing to restore the system to what it had been before 1979.  They decided that Thatcher had been right and that they'd better try and run the system as-is.  But what happened in 2008 proves Thatcher was wrong, the market isn't always right.  And it gave this lot the opportunity to come in again and restore the economy at the expense of the less well off, whilst blaming "Labour's mess."
 
The Tories came in 1945 and accepted the 1945 settlement.  It continued for 34 years until Thatcher came in and dismantled it.  It's time for another major change.  If Labour get in next year I'll be furious if they don't try and make changes that will benefit the majority of British citizens rather than the tiny minority who own everything.


I would argue that Browns pension ''reforms" started the death knell of the company DB schemes, he wanted the money in these scheme to be use to grow the economy rather than stay safe in bonds, so he changed the rules.

Yes Blair built schools an hospitals and I was swept along with this, but ultimately it wasn't a reforming government, which when you think of the majorities he had it could have been. It was government for the status quo and the protection of the city elite.

#14 Trojan

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 10:58 PM

I would argue that Browns pension ''reforms" started the death knell of the company DB schemes, he wanted the money in these scheme to be use to grow the economy rather than stay safe in bonds, so he changed the rules.

Yes Blair built schools an hospitals and I was swept along with this, but ultimately it wasn't a reforming government, which when you think of the majorities he had it could have been. It was government for the status quo and the protection of the city elite.

They could have reversed much of what Thatcher did, they didn't and that's why we've got what we've got today.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#15 shaun mc

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 11:15 PM

Barrow has 47% of its kids below poverty level
Schools open up early and provide breakfast because families have to rent places without cooking facilities

And we live in a growing (housing price led) economy

#16 WearyRhino

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:33 AM

And we live in a growing (housing price led) economy


Which is entirely unsustainable.

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#17 WearyRhino

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 02:46 AM

I agree with that but where's the Labour party MPs in saying the same thing? The only fight that they seem to want to have is with their union backers these days.


Which is the precise reason why I could no longer support Labour and joined Left Unity. I understand Trojan's point about electoral viability but when you end up voting for something you don't support, and in many cases were protesting on the streets about in decades gone by, it cannot carry on. LU only has a handful of council candidates this time round and no European candidates, the Party is only a little over 6 months old, and it will be strange urging people not to vote Labour, but it has to be done.

LUNEW.jpg


#18 Trojan

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 07:44 AM

Which is the precise reason why I could no longer support Labour and joined Left Unity. I understand Trojan's point about electoral viability but when you end up voting for something you don't support, and in many cases were protesting on the streets about in decades gone by, it cannot carry on. LU only has a handful of council candidates this time round and no European candidates, the Party is only a little over 6 months old, and it will be strange urging people not to vote Labour, but it has to be done.

It's called pragmatism, you have to take the best you can get. In the nineties and noughties it was the Blair/Brown offer.  Did we really want Hague/IDS/Howard running our country?

The fact that Cameron couldn't win but got into power anyway with the support of the Lib/Dems shows the folly of splitting the left of centre vote. Although had I lived in a Lib/Dem -  Tory marginal in 2010 I'd have voted Lib/Dem too.


Edited by Trojan, 11 May 2014 - 07:45 AM.

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#19 dhw

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:42 AM

Except if you're poor or not likely to vote Tory.

Or even more likely if you are poor or feel disenfranchised you are unlikely to vote.



#20 Griff9of13

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 10:48 AM

Or even more likely if you are poor or feel disenfranchised you are unlikely to vote.


True. And probably explains why they get such a raw deal from politicians of all colours; they're only interested in votes these days.
"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."




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