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So will Jeopardy - Bradford v Wakefield - see a bumper crowd next week?


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#21 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 11:21 PM

But wasn't one of the reasons for bringing back P&R to 'make things interesting all year'. As it stands people are still picking and choosing games so what's changed in reality?


Sometimes there are foregone conclusion relegation scenarios like this year. This will not lead to increased attendances because of jeopardy because there is no jeopardy this season. The Bulls and the Broncos are toast and no other team is in jeopardy.

If there were four teams separated by 6 points and two were going down, then fixtures between the four and between the four and other teams in the division would have huge repercussions for the relegation struggle and then there should be some decent attendances especially towards the end of the season when every result and every league point lost or gained would have a bearing on who stayed up and who went down. The jeopardy of the teams involved should have a bearing on these attendances.

#22 Johnoco

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 11:54 PM

Sometimes there are foregone conclusion relegation scenarios like this year. This will not lead to increased attendances because of jeopardy because there is no jeopardy this season. The Bulls and the Broncos are toast and no other team is in jeopardy.

If there were four teams separated by 6 points and two were going down, then fixtures between the four and between the four and other teams in the division would have huge repercussions for the relegation struggle and then there should be some decent attendances especially towards the end of the season when every result and every league point lost or gained would have a bearing on who stayed up and who went down. The jeopardy of the teams involved should have a bearing on these attendances.

Maybe, provided like football you have a lot of fans to begin with and plenty who will turn up to see an unpredictable game. But who besides a totally mad for it RL fan will turn up to watch a poor team get 50-60-70 put past them? It's totally boring even for a RL fan. It's completely and utterly pointless to say 'soccer does this or that' 'not the British way' etc etc because RL has its own unique challenges and problems.

 

After the Warrington game Bradford should have been locking them out for the next game against Saints. But they weren't, I don't envisage the turnstiles wearing out against Wakey either 

 

I'm not against P&R but I don't believe abandoning it will advance the game either, it should have been done properly.



#23 keighley

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 12:24 AM

Maybe, provided like football you have a lot of fans to begin with and plenty who will turn up to see an unpredictable game. But who besides a totally mad for it RL fan will turn up to watch a poor team get 50-60-70 put past them? It's totally boring even for a RL fan. It's completely and utterly pointless to say 'soccer does this or that' 'not the British way' etc etc because RL has its own unique challenges and problems.
 
After the Warrington game Bradford should have been locking them out for the next game against Saints. But they weren't, I don't envisage the turnstiles wearing out against Wakey either 
 
I'm not against P&R but I don't believe abandoning it will advance the game either, it should have been done properly.


Bradford are doomed. As you say the speccies won't turn out to watch a hammering, thus the lack of a decent crowd against Saints. There will be a poor crowd against Wakefield also because of the lost cause spectre haunting the Bulls. If Trinity and the Bulls were only 2 points apart I would bet the crowd would be better than it will be with things as they are.

I agree totally that proper p and r would have been better, but we have to play the hand we are dealt. The other side of relegation , of course, is promotion and I think , next season, the games between the top teams vying for promotion will see increased attendances, so it's swings and roundabouts.

#24 Amber Avenger

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 01:21 AM

The other side of relegation , of course, is promotion and I think , next season, the games between the top teams vying for promotion will see increased attendances, so it's swings and roundabouts.


Will it though? Personally I think the promotion race is so loaded in favour the teams that will be in Super League come the end of 2014, that although there may be a rise in 2015, I soon think fans will figure out it's an exercise in maintaining the status quo very quickly. People say the Bulls will bounce back straight away, but I think we have no chance of that personally. If other current Championship clubs think they might prosper, that's fine. Personally I'm sceptical any of them will (not because I don't want them to, mind)

Edited by Amber Avenger, 26 May 2014 - 01:30 AM.

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#25 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:15 AM

That's not true. If you read my second post I added that, unlike football, RL clubs struggling at the bottom can cop some fearful hidings and this tests the enthusiasm of even the hardiest of fans. Both clubs have been flogged over the last few weeks and it could make it hard for supporters to get up for a relegation 4-pointer - even if it is the most important game of the season.

This is why IMO jeopardy doesn't necessarily equate to bigger crowds for basement battle games. Whether we should promote and relegate clubs is a completely different argument.

No, it is true. You're clearly using this game as some way to springboard your opinion on P&R and jeopardy, as the rest of your post clearly shows.

This game isn't jeopardy. When one club is the poorest club SL has ever had and the other club have had 6 points taken off them and are adrift by 8 points, the rest of the clubs aren't in jeopardy. They're safe.

Any arguments about jeopardy this year are clearly by people that want to have a pop at it. No one with a balanced view would claim that there is any significant jeopardy involved anymore to be able to prove a point.
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#26 iglard

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:38 AM

but we havent voted this system in. Ill wait and give it a few yrs to judge rather than a game after rd 15 versus teams 8 pts apart.

Do that. Then you'll probably realise how much ground we have lost on the competition - once again.



#27 BBR

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:47 AM

Crowds this season seem well down. Can't all be down to people having spent their cash on the world cup. Worrying. 10k once seemed achievable for a fair few clubs. Hull struggling to get 10k now. Saints only just did this week. Wigan been close to doing below a few times. Catalan gone backwards. I thought cas might this year but an awful crowd v Widnes. Sad to see

#28 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 05:50 AM

Crowds this season seem well down. Can't all be down to people having spent their cash on the world cup. Worrying. 10k once seemed achievable for a fair few clubs. Hull struggling to get 10k now. Saints only just did this week. Wigan been close to doing below a few times. Catalan gone backwards. I thought cas might this year but an awful crowd v Widnes. Sad to see

Is that because of "jeopardy" though?
What do you think the reasons are?
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#29 iglard

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:31 AM

Crowds this season seem well down. Can't all be down to people having spent their cash on the world cup. Worrying. 10k once seemed achievable for a fair few clubs. Hull struggling to get 10k now. Saints only just did this week. Wigan been close to doing below a few times. Catalan gone backwards. I thought cas might this year but an awful crowd v Widnes. Sad to see

Wigan and Leeds seem slightly down on previous seasons. Saints are struggling in a new stadium and with a decent side. Hull's crowds probably reflect the unpredictibale nature of the team.



#30 Dave T

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:11 AM

Well whatever Dave. The point is we have relegation this year and the argument was that people would be more likely to attend as every game means something. There are still one sided boring games that aren't pulling in big crowds so I aren't sure it has made any difference.

but that wasnt the argument at all, people are being obtuse around this.

People are jumping on this jeopardy point, and im not sure why, the new structure may or may not work, but using anything that has happened this year as a pointer is a complete nonsense, in the same way Lobby used all sorts of tenuous arguments against a closed shop.

Edited by Dave T, 26 May 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#31 Wollo Wollo Wayoo

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:15 AM

Can't see many Wakefield fans travelling unless there's a change of coach before the weekend.
Atmosphere like a funeral at Belle Vue yesterday.
For all the talking down by the Bradford fans, I'm sure they realise that they generally beat Wakefield regardless of the form of each club at that time.

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#32 Scubby

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:09 AM

No, it is true. You're clearly using this game as some way to springboard your opinion on P&R and jeopardy, as the rest of your post clearly shows.

This game isn't jeopardy. When one club is the poorest club SL has ever had and the other club have had 6 points taken off them and are adrift by 8 points, the rest of the clubs aren't in jeopardy. They're safe.

Any arguments about jeopardy this year are clearly by people that want to have a pop at it. No one with a balanced view would claim that there is any significant jeopardy involved anymore to be able to prove a point.

 

Again, you are wrong. My argument isn't against P&R. It is that P&R will bring bigger crowds as excitement builds at the foot of the table. Wigan aside in 2006, clubs at the bottom see their fans desert them in droves when they start losing lots of games - this has always happened in my time watching RL. These fans will not watch sides getting hammered and none (or very few of them) will return even when there is a crucial game against a fellow struggler.

 

If Bradford were on 4 points and Wakefield 6 it would be no different. Both would see crowds desert home games - this is the beast that is the RL-watching public. This doesn't happen as much in soccer and hardly at all in RU. But we are amongst the most fickle fans in sport and we know it.

 

I have watched RL for three decades and this has always been the case. The race for promotion (in a straight up and down) is a different beast entirely and generates lots of excitement with form teams playing each other for a goal.


Edited by Scubby, 26 May 2014 - 09:15 AM.


#33 Amber Avenger

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:10 AM

For all the talking down by the Bradford fans, I'm sure they realise that they generally beat Wakefield regardless of the form of each club at that time.


Even if we do, it's barely relevant in the relegation battle for reasons I outline in my first post on this thread. Personally I think victory on Sunday for us would be extremely hollow, it just delays the inevitable by a week.

Genuine question - is the perception at Wakey that they might get pulled into the relegation fight or is it that they should be further ahead than they are at the moment? Could be both of course, but I'd hope it was the latter

Edited by Amber Avenger, 26 May 2014 - 09:11 AM.

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#34 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 09:35 AM

Again, you are wrong. My argument isn't against P&R. It is that P&R will bring bigger crowds as excitement builds at the foot of the table.

And using this year to get a pointer in is poor, given the circumstances. You clearly know that there is no jeopardy given the situation of the bottom two. It's an exceptional year. To use it to try and prove a point clearly shows an agenda.

Wigan aside in 2006, clubs at the bottom see their fans desert them in droves when they start losing lots of games - this has always happened in my time watching RL. These fans will not watch sides getting hammered and none (or very few of them) will return even when there is a crucial game against a fellow struggler.

I've seen various attendances at games with jeopardy far higher than the norm.
Wakey/Hudds in 2001.
Salford/Cas in 2002.
Widnes/Cas & Cas/Wakefield in 2004.
Wakefield/Cas in 2006.
Salford/Rovers in 2007.

Whether there is P&R or not, there will always be a side that struggles. But when there actually is some jeopardy, and an opportunity to get out of it, fans have tended to come. Crucially to the point, the wooden spoon battle did not have such an effect.

If Bradford were on 4 points and Wakefield 6 it would be no different. Both would see crowds desert home games - this is the beast that is the RL-watching public. This doesn't happen as much in soccer and hardly at all in RU. But we are amongst the most fickle fans in sport and we know it.

How can you say that when you clearly cannot prove either way?

I have watched RL for three decades and this has always been the case. The race for promotion (in a straight up and down) is a different beast entirely and generates lots of excitement with form teams playing each other for a goal.

Well you've missed a bit then!

Edited by Wellsy4HullFC, 26 May 2014 - 09:48 AM.

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#35 Scubby

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

And using this year to get a pointer in is poor, given the circumstances. You clearly know that there is no jeopardy given the situation of the bottom two. It's an exceptional year. To use it to try and prove a point clearly shows an agenda.
 

 

My argument is that the fickle nature of RL fans means that, when relegation is present, they quickly desert their club and pick and choose fixtures. A club like Hull may get a one-off spike of 5400 for a deciding game against Sheffield (1999). But when you look at the whole season the club had sunk to the depths of 3100 (Salford), 3800 (London), 3500 (Leeds), 3600 (Wakefield), 3400 (Halifax), 3300 (Gateshead) - because the bulk of the fans had walked away in despair. In some cases the spike is relative only to how low any club has sunk.

 

Wakefield are down to 3,600 for their last game with Warrington. If they end up having a relegation decider in September they may get 5,000 - hardly a time to celebrate if they have 5 more 3k crowds during the rest of the season because fickle fans have gone AWOL (due to grim reaper thoughts about going down). Three years ago Wakefield won 7 games all season (and lost 4 points for going into administration) yet they still recorded 6400 (Crusaders), 6500 (Bradford) and 7900 (Hull) in the last few weeks of the season.

 

By nature we are a bunch of miserable doom mongers. Look at Salford 6900 to 2900 in 3 months. Add relegation fixtures into the mix and we sit at home moaning at the radio with our prosaic fearing the worst. When there is a chink of light we might or might not turn up for a one-off game.

 

Bring relegation in - I am comfortable with that. But the RFL suggesting fans of Bradford, Wakefield, London etc. are rubbing their hands at the thought off a battle against relegation (and some jeopardy games) is extremely short-sighted and goes against how fans have treated the sport over the years.


Edited by Scubby, 26 May 2014 - 10:53 AM.


#36 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:53 AM

My argument is that the fickle nature of RL fans means that, when relegation is present, they quickly desert their club and pick and choose fixtures. A club like Hull may get a one-off spike of 5400 for a deciding game against Sheffield (1999). But when you look at the whole season the club had sunk to the depths of 3100 (Salford), 3800 (London), 3500 (Leeds), 3600 (Wakefield), 3400 (Halifax), 3300 (Gateshead) - because the bulk of the fans had walked away in despair. In some cases the spike is relative only to how low any club has sunk.

Whether P&R was present or not, the crowds would have sunk that low. The fact there is a spike is a bonus against the non-jeopardy games.

The presence of relegation, as you're suggesting, is not the reason people abandon a club. Lack of success is. That jeopardy brings people's interest back temporarily... something that didn't happen when there was no P&R. There were no wooden spoon battles.

Wakefield are down to 3,600 for their last game with Warrington. If they end up having a relegation decider in September they may get 5,000 - hardly a time to celebrate if they have 5 more 3k crowds during the rest of the season because fickle fans have gone AWOL (due to grim reaper thoughts about going down).

If you really think fans have abandoned Wakefield due to the threat of relegation and not due to selling off the majority of their best players in the off-season due to financial issues and having their ground capacity significantly reduced on top of further off-field disappointments (such as the new stadium not happening and significantly less investment), then again you're ignoring things to push your agenda. This would likely have happened if there was no P&R.

By nature we are a bunch of miserable doom mongers. Look at Salford 6900 to 2900 in 3 months. Add relegation fixtures into the mix and we sit at home moaning at the radio with our prosaic fearing the worst. When there is a chink of light we might or might not turn up for a one-off game.

Again, I doubt the drop off in attendance at Salford has anything to do with the presence if relegation. They're pretty safe. It's the lack of success.

Bring relegation in - I am comfortable with that.

I'm not sure you are, given that you're arguing fans are deserting their clubs due to a fear of it!

But the RFL suggesting fans of Bradford, Wakefield, London etc. are rubbing their hands at the thought off a battle against relegation (and some jeopardy games) is extremely short-sighted and goes against how fans have treated the sport.

There are no jeopardy games this year. Off-field issues have superseded on-field battles. You can keep saying there is a relegation battle, but there really really isn't.

When we start a season with clubs not having major financial melt downs and points deductions imposed on them, then maybe that would be a good time to throw around the jeopardy argument.
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#37 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:09 AM

I still think Bradford and London have a chance but they need to start winning soon. If Bradford can turn Wakey over it will get the ball rolling. Also London need to turn Hull over - a game I shall attend (but would not have attended without relegation).

Never thought I'd say this but I hope Bradford shove 50 on Wakey!

#38 Johnoco

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:33 AM

I still think Bradford and London have a chance but they need to start winning soon. If Bradford can turn Wakey over it will get the ball rolling. Also London need to turn Hull over - a game I shall attend (but would not have attended without relegation).

Never thought I'd say this but I hope Bradford shove 50 on Wakey!

You and the other non Bradford fans seem to be under some sort of illusion that the Bulls are suddenly going to have a burst of winning matches as they aren't really trying so far. Sad to report the reality is that they are trying but just aren't good enough. Bradford are definitely going to be relegated.

#39 Scubby

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:37 AM

As I mentioned in my other post, Wakefield only won 7 games all year in 2011 (and lost 4 points for administration) yet they were getting crowds of 6500 for the likes of Crusaders and 8k for Hull towards the end of that season

 

 

Wakefield's crowds (even if they are safe) could well be sub 3k by the end of this year. How on earth is the club going to market season tickets to those dwindling numbers on the promise of the first part of season 2015 as basement dwellers and then games against Championship clubs in August/Sept? This is the same for 2016 and perhaps 2017?

 

What people fail to realise is that with relegation in place when the jeopardy games come along - for many clubs the damage is already done. Bradford fans are looking ahead to the next 2/3 years at the moment and not turning up on the back of that thought. A number of Bradford fans posting on here seem to echo that feeling.

 

I would imagine the despondency at Wakefield is based pretty much on the same argument on what this means for the next couple of years.


Edited by Scubby, 26 May 2014 - 11:42 AM.


#40 keighley

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:38 AM

Will it though? Personally I think the promotion race is so loaded in favour the teams that will be in Super League come the end of 2014, that although there may be a rise in 2015, I soon think fans will figure out it's an exercise in maintaining the status quo very quickly. People say the Bulls will bounce back straight away, but I think we have no chance of that personally. If other current Championship clubs think they might prosper, that's fine. Personally I'm sceptical any of them will (not because I don't want them to, mind)


You'll get no argument from me. The new 3 x 8 is rigged in favour of the incumbents. I don't think it will survive very long. A straight up one or two team p and r should replace it. There seem to be several Championship teams with facilities and financial stability, not to mention Bradford, who will be making a lot of noise if nobody has been promoted at all after two or three seasons




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