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Iraq


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#101 walter sobchak

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 07:14 PM

Didn't we send body armour, radios and other supplies to the rebels in Syria?


Yeah but these are the good jihadists that are fighting against Assad, my enimies enemy is my friend and all that.

#102 GeordieSaint

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 09:06 PM

Didn't we send body armour, radios and other supplies to the rebels in Syria?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-25331241

It is quite apt for certain people to lump all non-government fighters in Syria as fundamentalists just as everyone Is classed as Taliban in Afghanistan; this is not the reality on the ground in Syria. A decent guide is again on the BBC website linked below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-24403003

Western governments are very aware of the Fundamentalist threat and are not supporting these organisations in either Iraq or Syria.

Edited by GeordieSaint, 20 June 2014 - 09:07 PM.

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#103 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:30 PM

Who's talking about dictators? Allende was elected and the US backed a coup to get rid of him. Either you support democracy or you don't.

Mussolini and Hitler were also elected but they went on to be dictators.



#104 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:33 PM

Complete rubbish, the democratically elected Ukrainian president viktor yanukovych was overthrown in a coup backed by the US and EU. Also the Ukrainian people never elected the fascists after the coup they installed themselves and appointed themselves to government positions.

The Ukrainian parliament approved the new government. The parliament was voted in by the Ukranian people.

 

I think it's a clear cut case of what you were accusing me of. Support for "democracy" until someone you don't like wins the election at which point foreign intervention suddenly becomes justified.



#105 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:34 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-25331241

It is quite apt for certain people to lump all non-government fighters in Syria as fundamentalists just as everyone Is classed as Taliban in Afghanistan; this is not the reality on the ground in Syria. A decent guide is again on the BBC website linked below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-24403003

Western governments are very aware of the Fundamentalist threat and are not supporting these organisations in either Iraq or Syria.

Western governments and seemingly the BBC are the last people who believe that the Free Syrian Army has any reality behind it. They have been overtaken by events.



#106 Northern Sol

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:37 PM

He only supports democracy when the elected leaders obey orders from Washington and London and introduce neoliberalism policies.

As opposed to supporting it only when the local leader takes orders from Moscow and runs a kleptocratic government.

 

I'm the one that is quite consistent. Fascism and communism (and Islamism) are ideologies that have huge human rights issues and are often expansionist in character and therefore it is quite legitimate for other countries to take an interest.

 

You only seem to think that fascism is a problem even though the human rights records of the other ideologies isn't any better. 

 

edit: democracy and "tyranny of the majority" are two quite different things. Civilised countries have separation of the political and judiciary systems for this reason. There are certain rights that if taken away signal the end of democracy even if approved in parliament or in a referendum.


Edited by Northern Sol, 20 June 2014 - 11:06 PM.


#107 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:44 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-25331241

It is quite apt for certain people to lump all non-government fighters in Syria as fundamentalists just as everyone Is classed as Taliban in Afghanistan; this is not the reality on the ground in Syria. A decent guide is again on the BBC website linked below:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-24403003

Western governments are very aware of the Fundamentalist threat and are not supporting these organisations in either Iraq or Syria.

 

I know, but the point was more about how we arrest people who go out to Syria if there are so many groups and 'we' have actively supported 'that' side.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#108 walter sobchak

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 06:58 PM

Mussolini and Hitler were also elected but they went on to be dictators.


Can't you see how absurd that comment is and how your argument is even more so absurd? You apologise for and justify the overthrowing of democratically elected leaders like Allende of Chile and mossadegh of Iran because they were suspected of having "communist leanings" and that they might turnout to be like hitler and Mussolini because they too were both democratically elected yet support the undemocratic action of a coup far less a foreign backed coup that installed a brutal tyrant in the case of Iran with the shah who murdered thousands and who also tortured and imprisoned many more who opposed him and spoke out against his tyranny using his Gestapo like secret police, SAVAK. Whilst your position on Chile is even more so absurd as General Pinochet was an out and out fascist like hitter and Mussolini who killed thousands and imprisoned and tortured upto 80,000 people. which other democratically elected leftist leaders of today would you suspect of having "communist leanings" and who could turn out to be like hitter or Mussolini? Bolivia's evo morales? Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro? Ecuador's rafael correa?

#109 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 09:48 PM

Can't you see how absurd that comment is and how your argument is even more so absurd? You apologise for and justify the overthrowing of democratically elected leaders like Allende of Chile and mossadegh of Iran because they were suspected of having "communist leanings" and that they might turnout to be like hitler and Mussolini because they too were both democratically elected yet support the undemocratic action of a coup far less a foreign backed coup that installed a brutal tyrant in the case of Iran with the shah who murdered thousands and who also tortured and imprisoned many more who opposed him and spoke out against his tyranny using his Gestapo like secret police, SAVAK. Whilst your position on Chile is even more so absurd as General Pinochet was an out and out fascist like hitter and Mussolini who killed thousands and imprisoned and tortured upto 80,000 people. which other democratically elected leftist leaders of today would you suspect of having "communist leanings" and who could turn out to be like hitter or Mussolini? Bolivia's evo morales? Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro? Ecuador's rafael correa?

What's absurd is your grasp of facts. For one thing "the Shah" was not installed by the US or the UK. He was head of state from 1941 to 1979 and that includes the period that Mossadegh was Prime Minister. He got his title through his dad, who was also Shah (believe it or not). The head of state in Iran / Persia was "the Shah" since Cyrus the Great in classical times long before there was an England let alone a USA. I am curious as to why you believe that he was imposed on the Iranians in place of Mossadegh; it's like accusing the Queen of replacing Thatcher.

 

These days communism is dead and usually no particular threat to anyone, so your analogy makes no sense in most cases. Though Maduro / Chavez have sponsored a terrorist organisation (FARC) in Columbia and so I'd quite happily see Maduro deposed.

 

And I made no particular comment on the specific case of Mossadegh or Allende. I haven't studied either in sufficient detail to comment. But I do know that being elected doesn't mean that you can't ever be a dictator, Mugabe won elections legitimately at one time. I also know that the body count from communism is no higher from Nazis / fascists. So your comments about "democratically elected" and "nobody's business" ring rather hollow.



#110 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:16 PM

Reading up on Mossadegh at the moment. No exactly a model democrat.

 

The previous PM was shot dead whilst in office. Supposedly by an Islamist group. Obviously not Mossadegh's fault but it does tend to speak of the nature of Iranian politics at that time.

 

The elections of 1951 were halted by Mossadegh because the opposition were winning. He then requests emergency powers and is refused.

 

Mossadegh resigns as 1952 and was replaced as PM. Huge protests across the country orchestrated by Mossadegh's party led to him being reinstated. Mossadegh then persuaded parliament to give him emergency powers. These were then extended in 1953. A referendum is held to approve the powers, Mossadegh gets a suspiciously high 99% share of the vote in a non-secret ballot. Then there is a CIA backed coup against him.



#111 tonyXIII

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:48 PM

... I also know that the body count from communism is no higher from Nazis / fascists...

 

Are you sure about that? How many millions did Stalin's regime kill?


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#112 Johnoco

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:09 AM

Where did Saddam Hussein keep his CD's?  In Iraq

 

#hereallweek


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#113 Bob8

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:23 AM

Where did Saddam Hussein keep his CD's?  In Iraq

 

#hereallweek

When does Saddam Hussein eat his dinner?


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#114 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 09:01 AM

Are you sure about that? How many millions did Stalin's regime kill?

You are right. It was a typo on my part. The death toll from Stalin's / Mao's and Pol Pot's regimes is higher than Hitler's plus any fascists.



#115 Johnoco

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 02:43 PM

When does Saddam Hussein eat his dinner?

When Tariq Aziz?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#116 Bob8

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 03:30 PM

When Tariq Aziz?

Well done, that man!


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#117 GeordieSaint

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:02 PM

Turned on Ch4 news earlier to see a Jihadist in Syria plus some other Brit in Syria being interviewed live and debating with an MP... shocked would be an understatement.


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#118 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:11 PM

Turned on Ch4 news earlier to see a Jihadist in Syria plus some other Brit in Syria being interviewed live and debating with an MP... shocked would be an understatement.

When will the idiotic British media learn to stop giving Islamic extremists free publicity?



#119 GeordieSaint

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Posted 01 July 2014 - 07:23 PM

When will the idiotic British media learn to stop giving Islamic extremists free publicity?

 

Did you see it? The bloke in the white was gobbing off about Israel, British Foreign Policy et al and there would be a big backlash if the government doesn't change their approach... at times he was cut off but I was amazed that they were even given an opportunity to air their views.


Edited by GeordieSaint, 01 July 2014 - 07:24 PM.

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