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Malaysian airliner crashes in Ukraine


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#41 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:03 PM

The Maritime Close Protection (CP) circuit has been doing a roaring trade for years now; it used to be heaving with ex-British military personnel (usually Royal Marines) but has diminished markedly in recent times as CP companies have figured out it is much cheaper to employ a Brit as the team supported by a team of Fijians, Nepalese, Indians et al. They've also been armed for years (locked in areas for self-defence) and not sure anything is illegal in that when they are outside of sovereign state waters?! I would presume heat seeking missiles would be though but haven't heard of this myself...

Out of interest, what is your point including this in this particular thread?


I'm not sure that heat seeking missiles would either be necessary or effective for the job
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#42 Wolford6

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:07 PM

1. They've also been armed for years (locked in areas for self-defence) and not sure anything is illegal in that when they are outside of sovereign state waters?! I would presume heat seeking missiles would be though but haven't heard of this myself...

 

2. Out of interest, what is your point including this in this particular thread?

 

1. I know nothing other than what I'm told but, reportedly, merchant seamen and ships are not allowed to carry weapons (other than for pest control etc) under maritime law. Presumably there's a spec of what can and can't be carried.

 

2. Even if the Russians did provide weapons to the Ukrainian militants those weapons may not have been Russian and proving provenance is likely to be impossible.


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#43 ckn

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:42 PM

1. I know nothing other than what I'm told but, reportedly, merchant seamen and ships are not allowed to carry weapons (other than for pest control etc) under maritime law. Presumably there's a spec of what can and can't be carried.

2. Even if the Russians did provide weapons to the Ukrainian militants those weapons may not have been Russian and proving provenance is likely to be impossible.

There's a whole world of difference between handheld missile launchers and those that are the size of an HGV and include self contained radar guidance.

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#44 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:54 PM

 

2. Even if the Russians did provide weapons to the Ukrainian militants those weapons may not have been Russian and proving provenance is likely to be impossible.

Particularly since the Ukrianian military also uses Russian weapons, though I suspect that will be changing suppliers in future.



#45 nadera78

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:55 PM

The Maritime Close Protection (CP) circuit has been doing a roaring trade for years now; it used to be heaving with ex-British military personnel (usually Royal Marines) but has diminished markedly in recent times as CP companies have figured out it is much cheaper to employ a Brit as the team supported by a team of Fijians, Nepalese, Indians et al. They've also been armed for years (locked in areas for self-defence) and not sure anything is illegal in that when they are outside of sovereign state waters?! I would presume heat seeking missiles would be though but haven't heard of this myself...

 

Out of interest, what is your point including this in this particular thread?

My mrs is a lawyer specialising in Maritime Law, which is something of a niche area mostly staffed by drunkards and ex-mariners. Merchant ships have been carrying armed personnel for many years now.


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#46 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 05:57 PM

EU politicians: Public stance: Putin and rebel cronies are evil.  Private stance: If you don't turn our gas off we'll not implement the sanctions that really hurt.

 

US politicians: Public stance: Putin and rebel cronies are evil.  Private stance: You talk tough at us, we'll talk tough at you, our public perceptions will look good and we can get on with more important stuff than the lives of those we couldn't care about.

 

UK politicians: Public stance:  (inaudible squeak that no-one can hear and has no credibility anyway).  Private stance:  We're still important, honest we are, we can't do much to you economically (because our corporate paymasters won't let us), militarily (because our military has been degraded to a point we cannot compete with any other permanent member of the UN Security Council) or reputationally (because no-one takes us seriously any longer) but we're still going to squeak away pretending we're important.

You say that but the biggest sanction of all is the corporate paymasters of various Western countries withdrawing their interests in Russia completely independently of politicians.

 

Russia certainly isn't getting away unpunished, their economy has been hit ever since they started messing around in Ukraine.



#47 GeordieSaint

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:18 PM

I'm not sure that heat seeking missiles would either be necessary or effective for the job

 

Depends on the weaponry available to the pirates!

 

1. I know nothing other than what I'm told but, reportedly, merchant seamen and ships are not allowed to carry weapons (other than for pest control etc) under maritime law. Presumably there's a spec of what can and can't be carried.

 

2. Even if the Russians did provide weapons to the Ukrainian militants those weapons may not have been Russian and proving provenance is likely to be impossible.

 

Sorry Wolford, wasn't having a dig. Just explaining through my own experience and interested in where you were going with the 2nd point... as Ckn points out, big difference between the weaponry involved but wouldn't argue with the bold part of the sentence though, especially as it seems wreckage has been removed and destroyed according to reports.

 

My mrs is a lawyer specialising in Maritime Law, which is something of a niche area mostly staffed by drunkards and ex-mariners. Merchant ships have been carrying armed personnel for many years now.

 

I knew they had been carried as I know a fair few people who have worked as part of CP teams on the Indian Ocean and elsewhere. Plenty of governments have authorised the use of CP teams and weaponry and am I right in thinking our government is doing the same?


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#48 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:50 PM

Depends on the weaponry available to the pirates!

 

 

Sorry Wolford, wasn't having a dig. Just explaining through my own experience and interested in where you were going with the 2nd point... as Ckn points out, big difference between the weaponry involved but wouldn't argue with the bold part of the sentence though, especially as it seems wreckage has been removed and destroyed according to reports.

 

 

I knew they had been carried as I know a fair few people who have worked as part of CP teams on the Indian Ocean and elsewhere. Plenty of governments have authorised the use of CP teams and weaponry and am I right in thinking our government is doing the same?

I would have thought it depended on the heat source. If there is one it will be very intermittent in any kind of sea.

far better large calibre bolt action scoped rifles: garrets and some such, and high volume automatic weapons, even RPG's since the ships under attack are a more stable platform and are made od steel rather than wood or fibre glass. Also tactics matter.


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#49 JohnM

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:17 AM

isn't there some sort of chemical signature in the explosion residue that allows identification of the warhead source?



#50 GeordieSaint

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:00 PM

I would have thought it depended on the heat source. If there is one it will be very intermittent in any kind of sea.

far better large calibre bolt action scoped rifles: garrets and some such, and high volume automatic weapons, even RPG's since the ships under attack are a more stable platform and are made od steel rather than wood or fibre glass. Also tactics matter.

 

We are clearly speculating but it would depend on the type of missile; I am in no way an expert but I am sure the RN and RM have the capability to utilise shoulder fired missiles like the Javelin at sea. I have no doubt there are cheap Chinese versions but imagine something has been lost in translation when the matter was discussed.


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#51 bobbruce

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:39 PM

isn't there some sort of chemical signature in the explosion residue that allows identification of the warhead source?


Would that help though as both Russian and Ukrainian weapons are in the hands of the rebels.

#52 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:48 PM

Would that help though as both Russian and Ukrainian weapons are in the hands of the rebels.

 

And the Ukrainian weapons are Russian too.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#53 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:57 PM

We are clearly speculating but it would depend on the type of missile; I am in no way an expert but I am sure the RN and RM have the capability to utilise shoulder fired missiles like the Javelin at sea. I have no doubt there are cheap Chinese versions but imagine something has been lost in translation when the matter was discussed.

we are, and we are getting off topic as well

javelin is a land based weapon…obviously.

 

a small, highly manoeuverable  boat with outboard motors on the continuously changing topography of anything like a seaway  will have a small heat signature and would be constantly disappearing behind troughs in the sea and representing itself, is a lot different to an armoured vehicle or a truck.

A high calibre scoped rifle, and small or medium calibre automatic weapons would IMHO be more effective on the steady weapons platform that a large cargo ship is.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 23 July 2014 - 04:57 PM.

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#54 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:09 PM

The lack of respect from the Russians and Seperatists is amazing. Not that the Ukraine and the west is much better. It seems the politicians and leaders seem to think its more important to play the blame game instead of doing things properly regarding the crash site. Why the Seperatists feel the need to stop investigators and threatening people trying to do a job  I dont know. For me the scene should be free of soldiers and gunmen and people allowed to get on with the task of DNA and other searches and getting things back to relatives etc. The more the seperatists and Russians disrupt things the more I feel they shot this plane down and are trying to cover it up. Shame that the relatives and close friends of the victims have to suffer even more. 



#55 Wolford6

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:18 PM

The lack of respect from the Russians and Seperatists is amazing. Not that the Ukraine and the west is much better. It seems the politicians and leaders seem to think its more important to play the blame game instead of doing things properly regarding the crash site. Why the Seperatists feel the need to stop investigators and threatening people trying to do a job  I dont know. For me the scene should be free of soldiers and gunmen and people allowed to get on with the task of DNA and other searches and getting things back to relatives etc. The more the seperatists and Russians disrupt things the more I feel they shot this plane down and are trying to cover it up. Shame that the relatives and close friends of the victims have to suffer even more. 

 

Irrespective of whether they actually did blow the plane up, the separatists will fear that the Ukrainian authorities and the (let's face it, wholly western) crash investigation team will plant evidence or wilfully misinterpret the existing evidence to incriminate Russia.

 

The more headline-news that Europe and the USA can focus on Russia, the lower the fraction of contemporary media attention that is focussed on what their Jewish communities are funding in Gaza.


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#56 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:25 PM

Irrespective of whether they actually did blow the plane up, the separatists will fear that the Ukrainian authorities and the (let's face it, wholly western) crash investigation team will plant evidence or wilfully misinterpret the existing evidence to incriminate Russia.

 

The more headline-news that Europe and the USA can focus on Russia, the lower the fraction of contemporary media attention that is focussed on what their Jewish communities are funding in Gaza.

http://www.slate.com...ning_plane.html

 

They hardly need to plant any evidence. The pro-Russian militas were boasting about having shot down the plane on various social media before they realised that the plane was civilian.



#57 Wolford6

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:42 PM

Agreed, but, depending on the political climate, blaming the pro-Russia militia might not be nearly as desirable as blaming Russia itself. There again, next week it will probably be the other way round. Remember that poor bloke who was pinged as the scapegoat for the Lockerbie bombing when we wanted detente with Gaddhafi?

 

Putin has KGB background and his administration is just as clued up as the western ones on political nuances.

 

Yesterday, the UK Government announced a formal enquiry into the poisoning of KGB defector Alexander Litvinenko in the UK in 2006. It's only taken both Labour and Tory governments eight years to get round to investigating this. I wonder why it is being progressed now.


Edited by Wolford6, 23 July 2014 - 06:54 PM.

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#58 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

Plus you have rival separatist factions with all the associated empire building and general lack of any organisation.  The militia's are often bullying meatheads on a power trip, so they don't often understand why they need to do what they are told.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#59 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:53 PM

Agreed, but the pro-Russia militia are not Russia itself.

Well no. I would highly doubt that even Putin wanted the militias to start shooting down civilian planes but he set events in motion by destablising Ukraine and supplying weapons (almost certainly including the anti-plane missile system) to some very dangerous individuals.



#60 Wolford6

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 06:55 PM

No matter how much the public agonises about these events; to the secret services and the foreign office it's just a stage in the game.


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