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Middle east violence

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#281 Johnoco

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 11:45 PM

You don't try to explain it because you can't, how can a Jewish person be anti-Jewish it's absurd and No you never actually mentioned the word anti-semitism you just carefully danced round it and used coded words like "I think it boils down to people who don't like Jews." Also Zionism is an ideology while Semitic are a people, some of Israels biggest supporters are not Jewish like the evangelical Christians in the US.

To be honest, I don't give a toss anymore and don't understand why I even got into this debate. They were killing each other long before I was born and will still be doing so long after I am dead, so let them get on with it. Eff the lot of them.



#282 longboard

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:30 AM

It mostly is though. Except a few idiots who say things like 'We are all Hamas now'

 

JOC, tbf there have been protests against Israel's actions in Palestine etc for a long time by a variety of groups, long before the concentration upon Islam in the media. The protests and campaigns were often organised in the past by left wing groups and they still are largely, often by people from a range of different organisations. 

 

How some of these organisations can express solidarity with groups, such as Hamas, which has leaders who believe in the extermination of Jews, whilst supposedly advocating freedom for Palestinians beggars belief... but that's another matter.



#283 walter sobchak

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:52 AM

JOC, tbf there have been protests against Israel's actions in Palestine etc for a long time by a variety of groups, long before the concentration upon Islam in the media. The protests and campaigns were often organised in the past by left wing groups and they still are largely, often by people from a range of different organisations. 
 
How some of these organisations can express solidarity with groups, such as Hamas, which has leaders who believe in the extermination of Jews, whilst supposedly advocating freedom for Palestinians beggars belief... but that's another matter.

Are they really expressing solidarity with Hamas? Or with the plight and suffering of the Palestinians be they in gaza, the West Bank or the various other refugee camps throughout the Middle East.

#284 walter sobchak

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 08:56 AM

Thankfully the 72 hour ceasefire is holding out and being respected by both sides but if the siege on gaza isn't lifted then we're going to be doing all of this violence again in the very near future.

#285 ckn

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:04 AM

How some of these organisations can express solidarity with groups, such as Hamas, which has leaders who believe in the extermination of Jews, whilst supposedly advocating freedom for Palestinians beggars belief... but that's another matter.

I agree with that entirely.  Hamas is a group that deserves utter condemnation and international vilification simply because of their aims and constitution, never mind their proven actions over the years.

 

There is no black and white on this regardless of what people say, attacking one side of the conflict should not mean that you're assumed to have taken the side of the other.  Both are victims and both are nasty criminals whose leaders deserve to be dragged to the Hague for war crimes.  Unfortunately, there are just too many people entrenched in one view and genuinely believe it to be an issue capable of black and white decisions.


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#286 Griff9of13

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:16 AM

Thankfully the 72 hour ceasefire is holding out and being respected by both sides but if the siege on gaza isn't lifted then we're going to be doing all of this violence again in the very near future.

 

And that makes the whole thing all the worse. It is a cycle of violence and killing that ultimately changes nothing. Over 1,000 dead and for what? At times the human race's stupidity know no bounds. 


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#287 bowes

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:22 AM

Thankfully the 72 hour ceasefire is holding out and being respected by both sides but if the siege on gaza isn't lifted then we're going to be doing all of this violence again in the very near future.

The problem is the 'siege' was lifted by Egypt 3 years ago and their thanks was terrorists flooding in and trying to conquer the Sinai and set up an Islamic extremist state. They still haven't defeated the insurgency. If that is what they do to fellow Arabs why would Israel let them loose on Jews by opening up the border?



#288 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:38 AM

How some of these organisations can express solidarity with groups, such as Hamas, which has leaders who believe in the extermination of Jews, whilst supposedly advocating freedom for Palestinians beggars belief... but that's another matter.

I don't think it's another matter, I think it's the heart of the matter.

 

Hamas is a cancer for the Palestinian people and it needs to be expunged before any real progress is likely to be made.



#289 WearyRhino

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:40 AM

Let's get this straight shall we. Being against Zionism is not anti-semitic. Being against Zionism is not to support Hamas. The suggestion of ant-semitism is frankly insulting to anyone who has spent their entire adult life campaigning and fighting (sometimes literally) against racism from all people and against all people. I have friends who are Jewish and entirely opposed to the Zionist project and believe the state of Israel should be abolished. There are many thousands of True Torah Jews who believe the state of Israel should be abolished - indeed they believe the state of Israel is directly opposed to gods will. I despise Zionism and Islamism in equal measure - I DO NOT despise Judaism or Islam, I DO NOT despise Jews or Muslims. This is politics NOT religion.


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#290 WearyRhino

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:41 AM

I don't think it's another matter, I think it's the heart of the matter.

 

Hamas is a cancer for the Palestinian people and it needs to be expunged before any real progress is likely to be made.

 

That's exactly why Mossad created it isn't it.


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#291 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

Let's get this straight shall we. Being against Zionism is not anti-semitic. Being against Zionism is not to support Hamas. The suggestion of ant-semitism is frankly insulting to anyone who has spent their entire adult life campaigning and fighting (sometimes literally) against racism from all people and against all people. I have friends who are Jewish and entirely opposed to the Zionist project and believe the state of Israel should be abolished. There are many thousands of True Torah Jews who believe the state of Israel should be abolished - indeed they believe the state of Israel is directly opposed to gods will. I despise Zionism and Islamism in equal measure - I DO NOT despise Judaism or Islam, I DO NOT despise Jews or Muslims. This is politics NOT religion.

I don't think anyone would claim that being opposed to Zionism is anti-semitic, for the reasons you outline.

 

And you are correct to point out that to oppose Zionism is not to support Hamas.

 

However, it is also true to say that Hamas is an extreme racist organisation that wants to exterminate the Jewish race.

 

If you read article 22 of its Charter, you'll see it's straight out of the Nazi playbook.

 

And, despite your being anti-Zionist, the state of Israel was established in 1948 and won't go away. There is no point in wishing it would.

 

So the Palestinians and Israelis have to find a way of living next to each other.

 

But that won't happen until Israel believes the rocket attacks on its territory have ended for good.

 

And I can't believe that the majority of the Palestinians in Gaza want to continue trying to attack their neighbour in that way.



#292 nadera78

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:42 PM

I don't think it's another matter, I think it's the heart of the matter.

 

Hamas is a cancer for the Palestinian people and it needs to be expunged before any real progress is likely to be made.

CKN has pointed out how Israel could wipe out Hamas, or at least their capabilities, without the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Why don't they do it?

 

Secondly, you're ignoring the fact that Hamas only came to prominence in Gaza following the refusal of Israel to agree a deal with Fatah.

 

The unfortunate truth is that Israel simply does not want to allow Palestinians an independent nation, Netanyahu has said exactly that. Having a psychotic, anti-semitic enemy in Hamas suits Israel in this regard.


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#293 Bob8

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:47 PM

Let's get this straight shall we. Being against Zionism is not anti-semitic....

When I was first accused of anti-Semitism as I did not accept Jewsish were ethnically superior to Catholics, I no linger took offense at the accusation.  Racism is often over used and anti-Semitism is the form that is thrown around with the most senseless abandon.


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#294 JohnM

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

That's exactly why Mossad created it isn't it.

 

wot u onnabout?



#295 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:32 PM

CKN has pointed out how Israel could wipe out Hamas, or at least their capabilities, without the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Why don't they do it?

 

Secondly, you're ignoring the fact that Hamas only came to prominence in Gaza following the refusal of Israel to agree a deal with Fatah.

 

The unfortunate truth is that Israel simply does not want to allow Palestinians an independent nation, Netanyahu has said exactly that. Having a psychotic, anti-semitic enemy in Hamas suits Israel in this regard.

Unfortunately the state of Israel hasn't consulted me about its military tactics, so I can't answer your first question.

 

On your second point, it doesn't really matter how Hamas came to power. What matters is what it represents.

 

There may be something in your third point. I'm not qualified to know for sure. But in the long term I find it hard to believe that it would suit Israel to have an anti-Semitic enemy on its doorstep.



#296 walter sobchak

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

Unfortunately the state of Israel hasn't consulted me about its military tactics, so I can't answer your first question.
 
On your second point, it doesn't really matter how Hamas came to power. What matters is what it represents.
 
There may be something in your third point. I'm not qualified to know for sure. But in the long term I find it hard to believe that it would suit Israel to have an anti-Semitic enemy on its doorstep.

Of course it doesn't matter to you how Hamas came into being because that would involve you having to level some criticism towards Israel something you're not willing to do. just like you're not willing criticise Israel for occupying the west bank, east Jerusalem and the golan heights which you claim as spoils of war for Israel even though the international community condemn it and the UN security council have passed resolutions demanding the removal of the Israeli military and the illegal settlements which you also laughably call for the Palestinians to incorporate into their future state.

#297 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:13 PM

Let's hope you or any of your children are never in an armed hostage situation with having an attitude like that.

I hope that they aren't full stop.

 

But I would hope that you were never shot at by someone with a "human shield".



#298 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:16 PM

When I was first accused of anti-Semitism as I did not accept Jewsish were ethnically superior to Catholics, I no linger took offense at the accusation.  Racism is often over used and anti-Semitism is the form that is thrown around with the most senseless abandon.

It is but it's funny because the "anti-semite" label is often used against those who would normally play the race card at every opportunity. 



#299 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

Are they really expressing solidarity with Hamas? Or with the plight and suffering of the Palestinians be they in gaza, the West Bank or the various other refugee camps throughout the Middle East.

They are quite prepared to march alongside Hamas supporters.

 

I was in London last Saturday and saw the remnants of a demonstration. There were the usual Socialist Worker types but there were also those who were clearly supporting Hamas and holding placards like "Peace on our terms" and showing maps claiming Israel as part of Palestine.



#300 walter sobchak

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 03:24 PM

I hope that they aren't full stop.
 
But I would hope that you were never shot at by someone with a "human shield".

Me too! but I know one thing I wouldn't advocate the killing of both the hostage taker and the hostages, Sorry but that's just where me and you differ. Also I don't accept the charge of Hamas using human shields, it's just yet more Zionist propaganda.




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