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Middle east violence

Nothing ever changes

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#21 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:31 PM

No, people have to stop going backwards.


Its because of the corrupt corporate medias refusal to look backwards that a large section of the British population and more importantly the US population don't understand the conflict and the facts on the ground and what all the fighting is about.

#22 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:35 PM

That's not a solution, it's a fantasy.


It's more of a solution than the so called "two state solution." I'm sure there were people like you who said the same thing about whites and blacks living as equals in south Africa with a democratic vote.

#23 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:48 PM

I think things are complicated by the wider Middle Eastern conflict now. Egypt opened the border with Gaza and the Sinai got overrun with Islamist militants as a thank you, that they still haven't defeated. Hence the border went back up.

 

Many Arab countries are unofficially sympathetic to Israel this time round due to not wanting Islamism to spread, very difficult one though as Israel are hardly going to let rockets hit them without responding but a conflict in Gaza comes at a high cost and risks replacing Hamas with worse groups.

 

One state solution is just an excuse to see Islamic militants massacring the Jewish population a few years down the line.

 

It would help if 3rd and 4th generation people born in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan weren't falsely labelled refugees. They're in many cases treated worse than actual Israeli Arabs who stayed put. After that a 2 state solution is my preference but a 3 state solution is looking more likely



#24 Jasper

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 01:51 PM

When you study the history and facts of this conflict it becomes all to clear, the conflict started after WW1 with the Balfour declaration and came to ahead when the state of Israel was created thus wiping Palestine off the map. All the violence from then to today has flowed since then and will continue until a just settlement has been reached for the Palestinians.

 

Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.



#25 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:05 PM

Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.


It's best that you do your own research into the whole conflict and do it with an open mind, as people on both sides of the conflict will try and influence you one way or the other. I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts, modern day Israel was prior to 1948 known as Palestine, the people of gaza are refugees driven from their homes in 1948 from Palestine that is now modern day Israel.

#26 ckn

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:23 PM

It's best that you do your own research into the whole conflict and do it with an open mind, as people on both sides of the conflict will try and influence you one way or the other. I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts, modern day Israel was prior to 1948 known as Palestine, the people of gaza are refugees driven from their homes in 1948 from Palestine that is now modern day Israel.

Everything you say is right and the Palestinians really have been hard done to since 1948 but Israel is a reality now.  The vast majority, probably well over 95% of people in the area and closer to 100% in Gaza, were not alive in 1948 and have never known a free Palestine.  To say that Israel should be removed as a country would be just repeating the humanitarian disaster of 1948 and unfairness of displacing people from their home.  As bowes mentioned above, the other arab nations have not exactly helped with their refusal to accept generations of refugees down the line as home nationals.  How do you fix it?  No idea but there is a lot of truth in the old saying of "an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind", fixing "injustice" with rockets from Hamas or airstrikes/artillery from Israel will solve nothing.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#27 John Drake

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:28 PM

It's more of a solution than the so called "two state solution." I'm sure there were people like you who said the same thing about whites and blacks living as equals in south Africa with a democratic vote.

 

I won't dignify the 'people like me' comment with a response.

 

The two situations are incomparable. South Africa was a single state saddled with a racist government. The government changed, and hallelujah for that, but the state remained intact.

 

You want to 'uninvent' the state of Israel and make it magically disappear, assuming that everyone would then live happily ever after. Pretending that is remotely possible in the real world is pure fantasy, and offers no hope of a solution to anyone because it will never, ever happen. Why? Because you'd just be replacing one set of insurmountable problems with another, one set of displaced people with another, one spurious justification for pointless murder with another. The killing would never, ever stop. And in the meantime, while you indulge in this impossible fantasy, in the real world the killing will go on. And on. And on.

 

Real solutions are much harder to achieve and require genuine compromise from all sides involved and a basic commitment to stop killing each other as the absolute minimum. That's not impossible to achieve, as Northern Ireland demonstrates to us on our own doorstep, but the combatants in Israel and Palestine seem a million miles away from any similar kind of compromise.


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#28 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:41 PM

I won't dignify the 'people like me' comment with a response.
 
The two situations are incomparable. South Africa was a single state saddled with a racist government. The government changed, and hallelujah for that, but the state remained intact.
 
You want to 'uninvent' the state of Israel and make it magically disappear, assuming that everyone would then live happily ever after. Pretending that is remotely possible in the real world is pure fantasy, and offers no hope of a solution to anyone because it will never, ever happen. Why? Because you'd just be replacing one set of insurmountable problems with another, one set of displaced people with another, one spurious justification for pointless murder with another. The killing would never, ever stop. And in the meantime, while you indulge in this impossible fantasy, in the real world the killing will go on. And on. And on.
 
Real solutions are much harder to achieve and require genuine compromise from all sides involved and a basic commitment to stop killing each other as the absolute minimum. That's not impossible to achieve, as Northern Ireland demonstrates to us on our own doorstep, but the combatants in Israel and Palestine seem a million miles away from any similar kind of compromise.

How else can I put into words the "people like you" comment? There were people who said whites and blacks living together in one state was fantasy just like you said with the Palestinians and Israelis living together is fantasy but it happened in south Africa. My question to you is if the one state solution is fantasy, what is your solution? A two state solution? Or nothing but the continuation of the illegal occupation and settlements and the siege on gaza?

#29 chuffer

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:42 PM

Silly move by Hamas IMO kidnapping the Israeli solider.........great way to undo all that international and social media sympathy as they are now seen as the aggressors and have now allegedly broken two cease fires.....own worst enemy



#30 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 02:53 PM

Silly move by Hamas IMO kidnapping the Israeli solider.........great way to undo all that international and social media sympathy as they are now seen as the aggressors and have now allegedly broken two cease fires.....own worst enemy


I couldn't disagree more. the kidnapped Israeli soldier is a huge bargaining chip for Hamas something that they haven't had since the siege of gaza started as are the rising number of Israeli military casualties following the invasion and cross border raids.

#31 John Drake

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:02 PM

How else can I put into words the "people like you" comment? There were people who said whites and blacks living together in one state was fantasy just like you said with the Palestinians and Israelis living together is fantasy but it happened in south Africa. My question to you is if the one state solution is fantasy, what is your solution? A two state solution? Or nothing but the continuation of the illegal occupation and settlements and the siege on gaza?

 

Saying 'people like you' in the context of apartheid South Africa implies, or could be seen to imply that I personally was in some way a supporter of apartheid South Africa. Not only would that be wrong, it is grossly offensive to me, whether it was intended to be or not.

 

You could have said something like 'During the apartheid era, there were those who could not imagine a South Africa in which all its people would be treated equally under the law,' which would have been quite true, but not in any way personal.

 

As for my solution to Israel/Palestine, quite simply and honestly, I don't have one. I don't even begin to understand the mindset of the combatants on either side or have a clue what would make them stop killing each other. I'd rather just admit that, than indulge in fantasy scenarios that will never come to pass.

 

Just stop and think for a minute - how exactly would your solution be implemented?


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#32 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:14 PM

Far more people were displaced in the partition of India at around the same time for what it's worth. Plus the lands Jews were expelled from in the Arab world add up to several times the size of Israel. Ironically the biggest population displacement of the time was the expulsion of Germans from eastern Europe though for obvious reasons there wasn't much sympathy

#33 Wolford6

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:24 PM

Remind me:

 

Who started the Crusades, and where did they take place?

 

Who expelled the Jews in 1290 and refused to allow them back for 350 years ... and then only if they handed over money?


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#34 ckn

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

Remind me:

 

Who started the Crusades, and where did they take place?

 

Who expelled the Jews in 1290 and refused to allow them back for 350 years ... and then only if they handed over money?

I really don't get the relevance of that to today...


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#35 Wolford6

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:37 PM

I really don't get the relevance of that to today...

 

 

We have not got clean hands with regard to either side.

 

Let them get on with it.


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#36 ckn

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:43 PM

We have not got clean hands with regard to either side.

 

Let them get on with it.

A fight between one side with modern jets, tanks, artillery and weaponry (and no issues around striking into civilian areas) against another side with rather rubbish rockets, 2nd hand handguns and the occasional bit of aged and unstable explosives (and no issues around striking into civilian areas) isn't exactly fair.  Neither side might "win" but then the Israelis will lose by one hell of a lot less than the Palestinians.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#37 JohnM

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

Post #25 "I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts".

 

IS that so?

 

800px-Kingdom_of_Israel_1020_map.svg.png


Edited by JohnM, 01 August 2014 - 03:55 PM.


#38 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

Remind me:

Who started the Crusades, and where did they take place?

Who expelled the Jews in 1290 and refused to allow them back for 350 years ... and then only if they handed over money?

At the time of the Crusaders Christians were still in a majority amongst the local population and the Armenians and Maronites welcomed the Crusaders with open arms. Greek Orthodox were less happy

#39 Wolford6

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:05 PM

A fight between one side with modern jets, tanks, artillery and weaponry (and no issues around striking into civilian areas) against another side with rather rubbish rockets, 2nd hand handguns and the occasional bit of aged and unstable explosives (and no issues around striking into civilian areas) isn't exactly fair.  Neither side might "win" but then the Israelis will lose by one hell of a lot less than the Palestinians.

 

Yes, but Egypt is not short of Islamic zealots and still can't stand Hamas.


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#40 JohnM

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:06 PM

Its because of the corrupt corporate medias refusal to look backwards that a large section of the British population and more importantly the US population don't understand the conflict and the facts on the ground and what all the fighting is about.

 

 

no dog in the fight?  facts?  Are you SURE?