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Middle east violence

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#41 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:20 PM

Saying 'people like you' in the context of apartheid South Africa implies, or could be seen to imply that I personally was in some way a supporter of apartheid South Africa. Not only would that be wrong, it is grossly offensive to me, whether it was intended to be or not.
 
You could have said something like 'During the apartheid era, there were those who could not imagine a South Africa in which all its people would be treated equally under the law,' which would have been quite true, but not in any way personal.
 
As for my solution to Israel/Palestine, quite simply and honestly, I don't have one. I don't even begin to understand the mindset of the combatants on either side or have a clue what would make them stop killing each other. I'd rather just admit that, than indulge in fantasy scenarios that will never come to pass.
 
Just stop and think for a minute - how exactly would your solution be implemented?

At least a one state solution is a solution, if that's a fantasy then not having any solution is total madness. The one state solution is the only game in town as the two state solution is dead and the current situation is as I've said total madness and untenable. As for implementing the one state solution it would have to come about like ending any other conflict in history, by both sides coming together and negotiating with 3rd and 4th party's like the US,EU, Russia, Arab league etc acting as mediators.

#42 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:27 PM

Post #25 "I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts".

IS that so?

800px-Kingdom_of_Israel_1020_map.svg.png

How long ago was the kingdom of Israel? 2000 years? 3000 years? We're living in the 21st century and some of the victims of the creation of Israel are still alive today with the keys to their homes hanging around their necks and deeds to their lands.

Edited by walter sobchak, 01 August 2014 - 04:30 PM.


#43 Wolford6

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:31 PM

Sooner or later, an Arab state will enable terrorists to explode a nuclear or biological bomb in Israel.

 

Israel remains determined to provoke it.


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#44 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:32 PM

no dog in the fight?  facts?  Are you SURE?


Yes I'm sure, what's the point you're trying to make?

#45 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:35 PM

Sooner or later, an Arab state will enable terrorists to explode a nuclear or biological bomb in Israel.
 
Israel remains determined to provoke it.

Nobody in the middle east has nuclear weapons other than Israel and even if they did why would they sign their own death warrant?

#46 ckn

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:39 PM

Sooner or later, an Arab state will enable terrorists to explode a nuclear or biological bomb in Israel.

 

Israel remains determined to provoke it.

Why do you think there hasn't been a significant conflict between Israel and their neighbours for a while?  The Egyptians, Syrians and everyone else in the vicinity knows that if Israel faces defeat then they're not going to think twice about firing their own nukes, turning the region into a radioactive desert.  There's a huge incentive in keeping the nutjobs in order if you know that if they started to win then everyone turns into radioactive goo.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#47 Wolford6

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 04:40 PM

http://www.dailymail...ading-Iran.html

 

http://www.thetimes....icle4144386.ece


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#48 JohnM

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:07 PM

Yes I'm sure, what's the point you're trying to make?

 

That I do not believe that you are holding to your own advice.



#49 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

That I do not believe that you are holding to your own advice.


In what way?

#50 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:20 PM

North Korea would be the first to sell nuclear weapons to any extremist regime.



#51 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 05:40 PM

Can anyone explain how it all started, in the very beginning all those thousands of years ago? or point me in the right direction.  Was Israel originally Palestine and the Israeli tribe invaded, or was there just warring different tribes that 'evolved' into the Jews and Arabs?   Do the Jews  have an original homeland?  Any explanation much appreciated as it is hard going finding 'an idiots guide to the middle eastern conflict'.

Basically after going through various empires Israel was reformed by the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC (they were being swapped between two warring Macedonian kingdoms: Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire prior that). This split up into various kingdoms that became Roman protectorates but there were several wars and the Jewish population was expelled from Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina with the temple replaced by a temple to Jupiter). A large diaspora formed throughout the Roman Empire, in fact 1 in 7 of the population were Jewish at one point but mainly following forms of the religion with a Greek influence. As time went by most of the population of Syria Palestina (as the Romans renamed it) converted to Christianity and fell into Byzantine Empire when Rome split up. The Arabs took advantage of war between Persia and the Byzantine Empire to expand and gradually the majority of the population became Islamic and switched from speaking Greek and Aramaic to Arabic (with the Arabs replaced by Turks and for a time Norman Crusaders). A sizable number of Christians remained but have disproportionately moved to Lebanon and South America.

 

Now the more controversial bits: In the late 1800s under Ottoman rule Palestine and Jordan had a very low population (mainly Bedouin and Circassian and Armenian refugees) so the Turks encouraged Jews to settle and spread commerce. The economic boost saw many Arabs moving there, even more when they wanted to prevent a Jewish majority with talk of a Jewish state. Thus by 1948 Palestine had a much larger population (unlike Jordan which was tiny, with a village as capital. The majority of the population are from Palestine after 1948 (anything from 60-80% depending on who you believe), plus an elite imported from the Hejaz (area around Mecca and Medina) after the rulers were kicked out by Saudi Arabian conquest. Israel and Palestine were given half the land each roughly but the Arab states invaded Israel and in the end Palestine was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish populations were gradually expelled from or fled from the Arab world (fled in the case of Iraq, Yemen and Morocco, expelled in the case of Algeria, Libya and Egypt) In other wars Israel took all the original Palestine plus the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt (but the latter was given back when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty). The biggest mistake Israel made is settling the West Bank as otherwise they could probably grant it independence or give it back to Jordan relatively peacefully (unlike Gaza)



#52 Jasper

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

Cheers Bowes, that's definitely the bones that I can hang the meat on.



#53 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:22 PM

Basically after going through various empires Israel was reformed by the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC (they were being swapped between two warring Macedonian kingdoms: Ptolemaic Egypt and the Seleucid Empire prior that). This split up into various kingdoms that became Roman protectorates but there were several wars and the Jewish population was expelled from Jerusalem (renamed Aelia Capitolina with the temple replaced by a temple to Jupiter). A large diaspora formed throughout the Roman Empire, in fact 1 in 7 of the population were Jewish at one point but mainly following forms of the religion with a Greek influence. As time went by most of the population of Syria Palestina (as the Romans renamed it) converted to Christianity and fell into Byzantine Empire when Rome split up. The Arabs took advantage of war between Persia and the Byzantine Empire to expand and gradually the majority of the population became Islamic and switched from speaking Greek and Aramaic to Arabic (with the Arabs replaced by Turks and for a time Norman Crusaders). A sizable number of Christians remained but have disproportionately moved to Lebanon and South America.

 

Now the more controversial bits: In the late 1800s under Ottoman rule Palestine and Jordan had a very low population (mainly Bedouin and Circassian and Armenian refugees) so the Turks encouraged Jews to settle and spread commerce. The economic boost saw many Arabs moving there, even more when they wanted to prevent a Jewish majority with talk of a Jewish state. Thus by 1948 Palestine had a much larger population (unlike Jordan which was tiny, with a village as capital. The majority of the population are from Palestine after 1948 (anything from 60-80% depending on who you believe), plus an elite imported from the Hejaz (area around Mecca and Medina) after the rulers were kicked out by Saudi Arabian conquest. Israel and Palestine were given half the land each roughly but the Arab states invaded Israel and in the end Palestine was divided between Israel, Jordan and Egypt. The Jewish populations were gradually expelled from or fled from the Arab world (fled in the case of Iraq, Yemen and Morocco, expelled in the case of Algeria, Libya and Egypt) In other wars Israel took all the original Palestine plus the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt (but the latter was given back when Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty). The biggest mistake Israel made is settling the West Bank as otherwise they could probably grant it independence or give it back to Jordan relatively peacefully (unlike Gaza)

The expulsion of the Jews by the Romans is now considered to be a myth. The Jews migrated to Europe looking for work.



#54 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:27 PM

That's true in a wider sense, plus there was widespread conversion in those days (at least to an outer circle if they didn't fancy circumcision). But the banning of Jews from Jerusalem itself seems to have a basis.

#55 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:27 PM

How else can I put into words the "people like you" comment? There were people who said whites and blacks living together in one state was fantasy just like you said with the Palestinians and Israelis living together is fantasy but it happened in south Africa. My question to you is if the one state solution is fantasy, what is your solution? A two state solution? Or nothing but the continuation of the illegal occupation and settlements and the siege on gaza?

The difference is that the leaders of the ANC wanted reconciliation with South African whites. Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israelis.



#56 walter sobchak

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

The expulsion of the Jews by the Romans is now considered to be a myth. The Jews migrated to Europe looking for work.


Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

#57 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

Agreed. The US condemned the Israeli bombings of schools and hospitals while at the same time arming them to the teeth with yet more arms. Both the republicans and democrats in the congress stand "shoulder to shoulder" with the Israelis as does the Israeli public, I fear this will go on for some time until Israel suffers a catastrophic event of either a large loss of civilian life or large loss of military life.

Hamas uses schools and hospitals as a place to fire weapons from. Israel returns fire and the world is shocked. Israel and Hamas agree a ceasefire and Hamas breaks it (according to the UN), Israel returns fire and the world is horrified again.

 

It will go on as long as Hamas wish it to. They simply refuse to stop attacking Israel.



#58 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:32 PM

Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

I don't recall saying that it did. 



#59 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 08:37 PM

It's best that you do your own research into the whole conflict and do it with an open mind, as people on both sides of the conflict will try and influence you one way or the other. I've no dog in the fight and I only support the truth and the facts, modern day Israel was prior to 1948 known as Palestine, the people of gaza are refugees driven from their homes in 1948 from Palestine that is now modern day Israel.

Largely untrue.

 

During the conflict in 1948, the Palestinian propaganda of time exaggerated Israeli atrocities and hyped up their military making out that their own victory was inevitable. Based on that most Palestinians simply fled the fighting assuming that they would be able to return to their homes in a couple of weeks.

 

There were killings and there was ethnic cleansing but it was small scale and most refugees simply fled before the Israelis even got to their village.

 

Ironically most Israelis are descendants of Jews who lived in the Muslim world e.g. Iran, Iraq, Egypt. Very many had their property seized and they were thrown out.


Edited by Northern Sol, 01 August 2014 - 08:38 PM.


#60 bowes

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:51 PM

Whatever the truth the expulsion had nothing to do with the Palestinians nor did the holocaust, anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian empire and anti-semetic attacks in Europe or North America.

On the contrary Christian anti-Semitism largely had its roots in that of the Roman Empire. Islamic anti-Semitism pre dates Israel with Iraq having its own genocidal Nazi aligned regime plus similar in Vichy France's north African colonies alongside earlier pogroms. Mostly Jews were treated no worse than Christians historically in the Arab world though

Edited by bowes, 01 August 2014 - 09:53 PM.