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Middle east violence

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#701 gingerjon

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:08 AM

In that case shouldn't Parliament enact a law that says that any British citizen who goes off to fight for a terrorist organisation automatically loses his or her right to a British passport.

 

One man's terrorist ...

 

There are clear cut ones.  I'd have no problem, subject to ckn's independent court, to people going off to behead journalists on behalf a sky pixie, losing all rights to British citizenship.  But, say someone goes to fight for, say, Kurdish independence ... or those lovely old boys who go and work in security for odd African militias ... these groups are sometimes designated terrorists.  And what would happen to the families of the people who lose citizenship?  They may find themselves no longer able to stay in the UK despite possibly not actually being a supporter of terrorism.


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#702 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:11 AM

One man's terrorist ...

 

There are clear cut ones.  I'd have no problem, subject to ckn's independent court, to people going off to behead journalists on behalf a sky pixie, losing all rights to British citizenship.  But, say someone goes to fight for, say, Kurdish independence ... or those lovely old boys who go and work in security for odd African militias ... these groups are sometimes designated terrorists.  And what would happen to the families of the people who lose citizenship?  They may find themselves no longer able to stay in the UK despite possibly not actually being a supporter of terrorism.

Any legislation would have to be framed to take account of the sort of situations you outline.

 

But it shouldn't be impossible to hit the targets we are aiming at.



#703 gingerjon

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:14 AM

Any legislation would have to be framed to take account of the sort of situations you outline.

 

But it shouldn't be impossible to hit the targets we are aiming at.

Agreed.  But I'd be wary of badly-written rushed legislation.


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#704 ckn

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:42 AM

One man's terrorist ...

 

There are clear cut ones.  I'd have no problem, subject to ckn's independent court, to people going off to behead journalists on behalf a sky pixie, losing all rights to British citizenship.  But, say someone goes to fight for, say, Kurdish independence ... or those lovely old boys who go and work in security for odd African militias ... these groups are sometimes designated terrorists.  And what would happen to the families of the people who lose citizenship?  They may find themselves no longer able to stay in the UK despite possibly not actually being a supporter of terrorism.

That's why the government has to consult widely before they can add organisations to the Proscribed Organisations list.  That should be the benchmark.

 

Also, any judgement should be reserved solely for the individual rather than their family.


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#705 GeordieSaint

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:34 AM

This is the bit about this situation I find hard to understand. Are they STILL arming IS?

 

It is not as simple as that as we look at the issue through a western perspective. Saudi, Qatar, Kuwait, Iran et al look at these issues far far differently to us as this is all part of a much bigger game to them and that is the balance of power in the region. I've attached an article below which discusses this. Clearly this is one in hundreds discussing the topic but gives a rough overview (true reflection is open to debate of  course!).

 

http://www.thedailyb...nding-isis.html#

 

However, is it State policy in Saudi, Qatar et al to fund and arm IS or Al-Nusra... no... do they turn a blind eye to funds being channeled... probably yes in some cases. Whilst through our eyes, IS are a fundamental threat to peace and security, to some people in the Middle East they are a necessary evil in the wider war taking place. We don't understand that in the West as we don't live there and in our view (rightly in my opinion) we think the long term consequences of such policies are counter-productive and to the point insane.

 

Our own policies haven't also helped the situation e.g. removal of Iraqi Army influence in post-Saddam era, failure to provide support to either side in Syrian conflict etc etc. However, whilst people suggest we should stay out of such matters fail to understand how inter-linked our society is to such trouble spots through the threat posed by fundamentalists back at home, the need for natural resources through to the globalised economy. I guess the point is there are no real long term solutions to these problems for anyone; it is a continuation of the ever changing world dynamic where economic prosperity of your nation is fundamentally the most important need and I don't see that ever changing in the future (clearly a pessimistic view!).


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#706 bowes

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:09 AM

I think part of the problem is we're approaching this from a rebuilding Iraq point of view which makes as much sense as forcably recreating Yugoslavia. If we aimed to create a more moderate state out of the Sunni parts of Syria and Iraq we could get the Saudis etc on board.

#707 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:59 AM

Mehdi Hasan wrote in the Huffington Post that two of the British numbskulls who are now fighting for the so-called Islamic State had ordered two books from Amazon a few days before their departure.

 

The two books were: Islam for Dummies and The Koran for Dummies.

 

So it seems to me that their religious convictions are probably not the major reason for these young guys heading off to Iraq or Syria.



#708 GeordieSaint

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

I think part of the problem is we're approaching this from a rebuilding Iraq point of view which makes as much sense as forcably recreating Yugoslavia. If we aimed to create a more moderate state out of the Sunni parts of Syria and Iraq we could get the Saudis etc on board.

 

Is it? Not a single Iraqi or Afghan in my experience has ever expressed an interest in splitting up their nations and it is not our responsibility to tell them otherwise. It is up to those nations as sovereign states to decide their future with our support if necessary and when requested. There is only so much we can do as 'outsiders' to help.

 

I am sure people will disagree with this but the world will never know how close the Americans were to solving the mess they (and us) created post-invasion in 03. The Americans left Iraq with the conditions set for a unified Iraq to move forward in the future. The precursor to IS had been systematically dismantled and defeated as an organisation in Iraq (hunted down by SF Ops throughout the country), rebellous Sunni tribes and former Saddam loyalists had been brought under government influence and the al-Sadr along with his Shia cronies had been chased across the border into Iran in sheer panic as part of Iraqi-led clampdown on Shia miltias. Consequently, the conditions were in place but Maliki ######ed it up royally...  

 

The entire region is a myriad of issues and conflicts and whether we like it or not, we are tied to it. You can wax lyrically that creating a 'Sunni' state or 'Shia state' across borders but it will not address the wider issue that is the balance of power in the Middle East... But we can only support them so far; it is up to them to come up with a final end state.


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#709 gingerjon

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:28 PM

 but Maliki ######ed it up royally...  

 

I don't know enough to agree or not with everything up to this but I think everyone can get on board with this part.


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#710 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:16 PM

21 suspected 'collaborators'executed by Hamas
How can this be justified?
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#711 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:30 PM

The PKK is fighting ISIS.  PKK are on the Proscribed Organisations list....


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#712 ckn

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:37 PM

The PKK is fighting ISIS.  PKK are on the Proscribed Organisations list....

The enemy of our enemy is often not our friend.


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#713 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:17 PM

The enemy of our enemy is often not our friend.

Are they our enemy?


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#714 ckn

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:27 PM

Are they our enemy?

They're not our friends.  Anyone on the Proscribed Organisations list is a dangerous bunch.  For example, there are a good number of the unionist groups in NI on the list but they're overtly "friendly" towards the UK as a whole.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#715 Wolford6

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:18 AM

I read somewhere the other day that the US and UK secretly armed and encouraged the IS leadership when they were fighting against Assad.  Now, suitably armed and funded, IS has stormed into Iraq where it is fighting in an alliance with former Iraqi army officers who have their own agenda for resuming power in the country.

 

Bog standard UK citizens aren't  in a position to properly understand and discuss the Iraq issue because the government controls the media and we are told only what it wants us to know.


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#716 walter sobchak

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:16 PM

I read somewhere the other day that the US and UK secretly armed and encouraged the IS leadership when they were fighting against Assad.  Now, suitably armed and funded, IS has stormed into Iraq where it is fighting in an alliance with former Iraqi army officers who have their own agenda for resuming power in the country.
 
Bog standard UK citizens aren't  in a position to properly understand and discuss the Iraq issue because the government controls the media and we are told only what it wants us to know.

This is it, ISIS are our "allies" when they are killing and beheading Syrian soldiers in Syria but when the same group of people cross the border into Iraq they become terrorists.

#717 Johnoco

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:50 PM

This is it, ISIS are our "allies" when they are killing and beheading Syrian soldiers in Syria but when the same group of people cross the border into Iraq they become terrorists.


Sounds similar to the Afghanistan situation in the late 70s/early 80s. The Afghan rebels were armed by people who thought that they were their friends because they were fighting against Russia.

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#718 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:27 PM

all in the line of duty: maybe it's a fake.

 

https://www.facebook...152394974223863


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#719 walter sobchak

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:43 PM

all in the line of duty: maybe it's a fake.
 
https://www.facebook...152394974223863

If it's not fake then this is truly horrific and pure evil.

#720 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:22 PM

If it's not fake then this is truly horrific and pure evil.

In the age of social media it doesn't really matter whether it is genuine or a fake, in the sense that it will be broadcast widely around the Internet and used for propaganda purposes as though it were true.

 

I would be very surprised if a genuine IDF soldier went onto Twitter or Instagram to make those obscene boasts. But who knows?

 

Meanwhile, Hamas summarily executed 21 Gazans who were accused of being Israeli informants. Again, who knows what they were really shot for? Were they genuine informers or people who the Hamas leadership saw as a threat.

 

Whatever, that's the way to keep the population under your thumb.

 

It's a story that didn't seem to be given much prominence on the BBC.

 

http://www.theguardi...d-infomers-gaza






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