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#501 scotchy

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:32 PM

That's not the point. The point was the elite hierarchy is unchanging and Bradford's plight is proof positive that it does change and how.

no the point is that these clubs you list arent replacing bradford, your proof that our hierarchy is unchanging is entirely based on huge mismanagement at bradford. Thats it. So if Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington can avoid 7 years of incredibly poor management by numerous successive owners, it will continue to be unchanged. 



#502 keighley

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 03:38 PM

no the point is that these clubs you list arent replacing bradford, your proof that our hierarchy is unchanging is entirely based on huge mismanagement at bradford. Thats it. So if Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington can avoid 7 years of incredibly poor management by numerous successive owners, it will continue to be unchanged.


No it's not. Huddersfield have moved into the top tier this last couple of seasons. Castleford are on the march this season. Catalans have hauled themselves from bottom of the league to perennial playoff contenders. Salford are also on the move upwards.

I am not trying to prove that the hierarchy is unchanging. I an trying to show that it does change.

#503 scotchy

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 04:05 PM

No it's not. Huddersfield have moved into the top tier this last couple of seasons. Castleford are on the march this season. Catalans have hauled themselves from bottom of the league to perennial playoff contenders. Salford are also on the move upwards.

I am not trying to prove that the hierarchy is unchanging. I an trying to show that it does change.

then you need to do a far better job than 1 isolated trophy and 2 cup finals when 2 of the big 5 have never been relegated, EVER. over the last 30 years 51 of the 60 main trophies up for grabs have gone to those sides. since 1996 that figure is 33 of 35. If we include the LLS that figure becomes 49 of 52 available trophies. 



#504 Bob8

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 09:24 AM

That's not the point. The point was the elite hierarchy is unchanging and Bradford's plight is proof positive that it does change and how.


There you go again making things up. If Koukash had bought another club, Salford would not be a god bet for Super League. A dramatic thing like that changes things, but it is pretty safe to say that is what would be needed for Doncaster to eclipse Wigan in the next twenty years.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#505 keighley

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 12:29 PM

There you go again making things up. If Koukash had bought another club, Salford would not be a god bet for Super League. A dramatic thing like that changes things, but it is pretty safe to say that is what would be needed for Doncaster to eclipse Wigan in the next twenty years.


What am I making up. the fact that Khoukash bought Salford or Davy bought the Giants or that the Catalans are moving to be a top half team does not change the fact that the room at the top has some different lodgers than it did a few seasons ago.

You are totally correct that Doncaster or any other team would need to find substantial financing to move into the top tier. Did I ever say otherwise. They might conceivably win a promotion spot without a big financial clout but they would not stay up without resources.

#506 Bob8

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 03:19 PM

What am I making up. the fact that Khoukash bought Salford or Davy bought the Giants or that the Catalans are moving to be a top half team does not change the fact that the room at the top has some different lodgers than it did a few seasons ago.

You are totally correct that Doncaster or any other team would need to find substantial financing to move into the top tier. Did I ever say otherwise. They might conceivably win a promotion spot without a big financial clout but they would not stay up without resources.

I just explained what you are making up.  Stop it.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#507 keighley

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 11:30 PM

I just explained what you are making up.  Stop it.


No you didn't.

#508 The Parksider

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 05:46 AM

no the point is that these clubs you list arent replacing bradford, your proof that our hierarchy is unchanging is entirely based on huge mismanagement at bradford. Thats it. So if Leeds, Wigan, Saints and Warrington can avoid 7 years of incredibly poor management by numerous successive owners, it will continue to be unchanged. 

 

Scotchy, I love your posts all 403 of them but beware running up 17,000 answering this stuff.

 

When someone listed the biggest transfer fees the other day I think Bradford were forced into paying a massive sum to Leeds for Harris which was the first unbalancing factor in Bradford's financial decline. They also had failed to get an academy going to replace their imported stars and in the wake of that their management resigned and new management had to find a way out of a downward spiral.

 

The new management didn't have the benefit of a financial cushion and the naive option of just spending what they had, was always going to result in declining attendances and crowds. They took a punt and failed but C'est la vie.

 

What we learn from that isn't that Bradford weren't a mega club after all, but that the management of Superleague should not be down to 10, 12 or 14 individual clubs all out for themselves. The true mismanagement comes from RFL/SLE managing to lose Bradford from Superleague and put the club in a position where it may find it hard to get back.

 

As a made for TV sport it's vital the biggest clubs compete closely, that means an element of central control that should monitor and mend the problems at and between the clubs. To deliver a product left purely to chance when £200Million is at stake, and maybe more if we had a better product and more bigger clubs (i.e. expansion within the game) is business madness.

 

As I say the changing of the guard may excite a few fans in Fev, Leigh, Fax and Keighley but it's about the game and the thread is about "expansion". One basic element of expansion is preventing contraction and losing clubs like Bradford to small town clubs with respect merely shrinks and unbalances the game.



#509 matt newsholme

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 07:04 AM

 They also had failed to get an academy going to replace their imported stars and in the wake of that their management resigned and new management had to find a way out of a downward spiral.

 

The new management didn't have the benefit of a financial cushion and the naive option of just spending what they had, was always going to result in declining attendances and crowds. They took a punt and failed but C'est la vie.

 

 

 

 

Bradford have always had a strong academy setup. Our problem wasnt producing players it was retaining them. This was due to both bad management with both caisley and hood boards tending to go for quick fixes of bringing in players rather than giving academy lads a chance in first team and them then leaving to get first team football, or other clubs with more financial bacing luring them away. Our academy has produced a fairly stable stream of SL standard players all the way through the SL era. You only have to look at ex-bradford academy players still currently playing to see this.



#510 keighley

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:01 PM

Scotchy, I love your posts all 403 of them but beware running up 17,000 answering this stuff.
 
When someone listed the biggest transfer fees the other day I think Bradford were forced into paying a massive sum to Leeds for Harris which was the first unbalancing factor in Bradford's financial decline. They also had failed to get an academy going to replace their imported stars and in the wake of that their management resigned and new management had to find a way out of a downward spiral.
 
The new management didn't have the benefit of a financial cushion and the naive option of just spending what they had, was always going to result in declining attendances and crowds. They took a punt and failed but C'est la vie.
 
What we learn from that isn't that Bradford weren't a mega club after all, but that the management of Superleague should not be down to 10, 12 or 14 individual clubs all out for themselves. The true mismanagement comes from RFL/SLE managing to lose Bradford from Superleague and put the club in a position where it may find it hard to get back.
 
As a made for TV sport it's vital the biggest clubs compete closely, that means an element of central control that should monitor and mend the problems at and between the clubs. To deliver a product left purely to chance when £200Million is at stake, and maybe more if we had a better product and more bigger clubs (i.e. expansion within the game) is business madness.
 
As I say the changing of the guard may excite a few fans in Fev, Leigh, Fax and Keighley but it's about the game and the thread is about "expansion". One basic element of expansion is preventing contraction and losing clubs like Bradford to small town clubs with respect merely shrinks and unbalances the game.


As a made for TV spectacle, a full house to watch the cup semi between two small town teams at the ground of another small town team was a lot better TV event than 6,000 rattling around Odsal watching a game between the Bulls and Wigan with nothing at stake.

#511 scotchy

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:07 PM

nonsense



#512 The Parksider

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:34 PM

Bradford have always had a strong academy setup. Our problem wasnt producing players it was retaining them. This was due to both bad management with both caisley and hood boards tending to go for quick fixes of bringing in players rather than giving academy lads a chance in first team and them then leaving to get first team football, or other clubs with more financial bacing luring them away. Our academy has produced a fairly stable stream of SL standard players all the way through the SL era. You only have to look at ex-bradford academy players still currently playing to see this.

 

 

Thanks Matt, It would be interesting to know which Bradford Academy lads "got away". Was Ryan Atkins one??.

 

I do recall Leeds and Wigan really going for professional academies around 2000/2001, by which time Bradford were already a monster of a club, and that a few years on (2005/6?) Bradford announced a very big investment in their academy. Had they been as quick in setting up this lifeline as Leeds/Wigan, and as you say had they looked to bring on the talent better it may have been a way out of the problems.

 

Problems which led to Kopzcak, Bateman and Whitehead going..... 



#513 matt newsholme

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 02:19 PM

Thanks Matt, It would be interesting to know which Bradford Academy lads "got away". Was Ryan Atkins one??.

 

I do recall Leeds and Wigan really going for professional academies around 2000/2001, by which time Bradford were already a monster of a club, and that a few years on (2005/6?) Bradford announced a very big investment in their academy. Had they been as quick in setting up this lifeline as Leeds/Wigan, and as you say had they looked to bring on the talent better it may have been a way out of the problems.

 

Problems which led to Kopzcak, Bateman and Whitehead going..... 

You talk about us only investing in academy from 2005 onwards but in reality our academy was strong from beginning of SL. Likes of peacock,fielden,pryce were all academy products.

 

Think atkins would deffo fall into group of players who went to get first team football, as would bridge and ferres and numerous others. At time they left club was more obsessed with bringing in established players to try and stay at the top rather than drop down a few positions and let youth come through for a year or two. IMO this is where we got it badly wrong and leeds and wigan got it spot on.

 

Later on you had likes of burgesses, kopczak,whitehead, bateman who we lost due to finances.



#514 The Parksider

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 05:17 AM

You talk about us only investing in academy from 2005 onwards but in reality our academy was strong from beginning of SL. Likes of peacock,fielden,pryce were all academy products.

 

Think atkins would deffo fall into group of players who went to get first team football, as would bridge and ferres and numerous others. At time they left club was more obsessed with bringing in established players to try and stay at the top rather than drop down a few positions and let youth come through for a year or two. IMO this is where we got it badly wrong and leeds and wigan got it spot on.

 

Later on you had likes of burgesses, kopczak,whitehead, bateman who we lost due to finances.

 

Thanks for the detail Matt, I do recall a very big spend on Bradford's academy mid 2000's and the article was accompanied by a picture of the academy team, it was if they had started to make a big extra effort in this area, but your corrections are most welcome.

 

It's always easy to play fantasy RL and get excited that maybe a Keighley will topple a Bradford, but when the underlying importance of professional clubs like Bradford attracting and producing the players of tomorrow is forgotten, then the damage of such changes in disrupting the process is always forgotten too.

 

At least licensing demanded that prospective SL clubs had academies, but as we saw the efforts of championship clubs in this area were woeful. Not only can Bradford run a 15,000 average crowd, 20,000 plus big game crowds but also a long term productive academy. A jewel in the crown of professional RL we can ill afford to lose from Superleague.



#515 zorquif

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:28 AM

Sorry for this Parksider, but it appears that Bradford COULD run a 15,000 average crowd, 20,000 plus big game crowds and a long term productive academy. But as has been mentioned, the club has been through several changes in ownership, and most likely there are few faces that were there then that are still there. The ground and the badge are the same, but is there anything else remaining from the club that could do all those things? If not, what is to say that the current faces could emulate that success again? I hope they could - as you say, that would be a jewel in the crown of RL.



#516 The Parksider

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 06:43 AM

what is to say that the current faces could emulate that success again? 

 

Mr. Green is the wealthy owner they didn't have, other clubs had one to bail them out. Hence this spawned the crass idea Bradford were badly managed yet Fartown are brilliantly managed.



#517 matt newsholme

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:39 AM

Sorry for this Parksider, but it appears that Bradford COULD run a 15,000 average crowd, 20,000 plus big game crowds and a long term productive academy. But as has been mentioned, the club has been through several changes in ownership, and most likely there are few faces that were there then that are still there. The ground and the badge are the same, but is there anything else remaining from the club that could do all those things? If not, what is to say that the current faces could emulate that success again? I hope they could - as you say, that would be a jewel in the crown of RL.


Well recent academy gradings which ranked us in top 3 or 4 suggests were maintaining our standards in that area under new management ok. Time will tell if we can improve on pitch and return to SL and grow crowds again but it's looking pretty positive so far.

Edited by matt newsholme, 03 September 2014 - 07:40 AM.


#518 keighley

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for the detail Matt, I do recall a very big spend on Bradford's academy mid 2000's and the article was accompanied by a picture of the academy team, it was if they had started to make a big extra effort in this area, but your corrections are most welcome.
 
It's always easy to play fantasy RL and get excited that maybe a Keighley will topple a Bradford, but when the underlying importance of professional clubs like Bradford attracting and producing the players of tomorrow is forgotten, then the damage of such changes in disrupting the process is always forgotten too.
 
At least licensing demanded that prospective SL clubs had academies, but as we saw the efforts of championship clubs in this area were woeful. Not only can Bradford run a 15,000 average crowd, 20,000 plus big game crowds but also a long term productive academy. A jewel in the crown of professional RL we can ill afford to lose from Superleague.


Well they are gone from SL so move on. It seems like the Bradford club have done so and are preparing for their new reality.

#519 Bob8

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 04:55 AM

That's not the point. The point was the elite hierarchy is unchanging and Bradford's plight is proof positive that it does change and how.

 

Nowhere has it been argued that things do not change.  That is why come clubs would drop out when necessary and some would come in when feasible.  It is a bit like that NFL model that you argue before, but do not appear to be familiar with.


"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

”I am all for expansion but not to start and string the teams all over the place” – stewpot01 – 11 July 2014

"2013 is on course to be one of the most disastrous in its history." - Creditwhereitsdews - 2nd January 2013


#520 The Parksider

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:42 AM

Nowhere has it been argued that things do not change.  That is why some clubs would drop out when necessary and some would come in when feasible.  It is a bit like that NFL model that you argue before, but do not appear to be familiar with.

 

Not sure about the "things change" point, but anyway if the game can get the best and biggest clubs working well in SL it doesn't need change - (your "not neccessary"). Try the NRL (closer to us than NFL) works great without "change". Is "change" good? As I say change Leeds for Hunslet and Wigan for Leigh just so a few people can have some personal joy and we lose many fans and interrupt valuable player development, and produce a lesser product for the TV (your "not feasible").

 

"Change" would be brilliant if Bradford had dropped as a big healthy club and been replaced by another big healthy club, but here's the problem - the former drops out and is badly further hit by it - crowds drop young players stripped away, and the clubs that may exchange with them (had there been straight P & R) would bring few fans and no effective player development system.

 

Changing clubs in SL is absolutely no good for the game if it is a manifestation of business failure at one end i.e the relegated clubs AND failure to grow an adequate business to compete leading to inevitable failure of the replacement club i.e the promoted club. Change is failure all round, and that is in no way healthy for the game.

 

Change may come about from major private funding, like Fartown Widnes or HKR who changed the composition of Superleague, but even then these clubs would be nothing without their rich backers, shorn of their rich backers Wakefield and Celtic Crusaders went into admin. Small clubs Workington, Oldham, Leigh, 

Halifax didn't have the rich backers so collapse was the result.

 

We can fantasise all we want but the great divide of the SKY money going to the elite and nowt to the rest is something we need to try live with not fight against to the detriment of important clubs like Bradford and London. Some people may perversely and selfishly find it warming inside that Bradford have dropped from SL maybe for some time whilst Fartown sail on on 5,000 crowds there but for the grace of one man. I can only think that the call for change in the SL guard merely comes from fans of clubs who want their own club to be the change, good for them but not good for the game.






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