Refugee humanitarian disaster

[ckn]

Oh, I don't deny that the Christian Church has done dispicable things in its past whatever the denomination.  Telling lies and stealing money as you cite aren't quite of the same league as beheading people, raping women, burning people alive in cages or blowing up thousands of people in towerblocks though.

Oh I think you really need to go learn more about the Christian faith then, you can even split it down by sub-sects, especially Catholicism.  Here's one for you that I was told about as a child by my Yugoslav grandfather, I searched for a site for you that you can't really criticise.  Catholic nuns running concentration camps for non-Catholic children, they either converted to Catholicism or were treated just like the Jews were in Nazi run concentration camps.  A good number of children from my granddad's village were taken there and did not return.  The sectarianism between Greek Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats continues to today and could easily be the next European war..

 

I could go on.  I could show you page after page of Catholic church sanctioned atrocities.  I could show you page after page of atrocities committed in the name of the other Christian churches.  I could show you page after page of Hindu atrocities against Muslims simply because they're Muslims.  I could show you atrocities of Christians against Sikhs and Hindus.  I could show you atrocities of Buddhists against Hindus.  I could show you how Native Americans were burned alive for being non-Christians and refusing to convert.  I could show you atrocities committed by militant atheists against religious people of most faiths.  I could show you ...  I really could go on and on.  These stack up to show that all religions will happily use and promote violence to achieve their causes, the atrocities done in the name of the Muslim faith are just the more visible of things going on now.

 

I'm pro Israeli.  We will never agree on that issue so I'm not going further.

I would wholeheartedly support our government committing our armed forces to support Israel if it were seriously threatened by any invading army.  I can understand WHY the Israelis act as they do towards anyone they see as a threat, I really can understand it and I doubt I'd act differently if I were in their shoes.  They've made themselves so hated but so feared that they provide their own safety, the surrounding hostile states know that Israel would not hesitate to fire its nukes as a last "f*** you" if it were about to be overrun.  That doesn't mean I can't be utterly disgusted by some of the actions of the Israelis towards the Palestinians. You can support a country and still dislike it, it's not a black and white world where supporting a country means you have to agree with everything it does.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Oh, I don't deny that the Christian Church has done dispicable things in its past whatever the denomination.  Telling lies and stealing money as you cite aren't quite of the same league as beheading people, raping women, burning people alive in cages or blowing up thousands of people in towerblocks though.

 

I'm pro Israeli.  We will never agree on that issue so I'm not going further.

So you are one eyed then?  Regarding Israel I have no real interest in it and for me you have idiots on both sides who include religious leaders who encourage violence. I fail to see how you can not understand this. You obviously have a major chip on your shoulder regarding Islam. I think its rather pathetic to blame all the worlds problems on Islam and basically makes you a joke. 

 

Maybe you need to look at the way the Christian church has its fingers in weapon smuggling, child sex slavery , drugs and other things. This goes far more than telling lies and stealing money. Also the USA has been sticking its nose in to much of the Islamic World and creating problems. Muslim lands like Afghanistan were peaceful places until the West and Russia starting going in. How is that the fault of Islam?. The Vatican also has shares in Weapon Manufacturers and has been involved in helping sell weapons to start wars. Again how is that the fault of Islam?

[fatboystu]

No individual religion is better or worse, they are all as bad as each other. The world would be a better place without religion in my opinion. Show me actual physical proof of religion, prove to me that any one God exists, dinosaur bones are milions of years old but still exist. Where is, for example, the ark? The cross that jesus was allegedly crucified upon? the bible/Koran etc are not proof they are word written by people.

Religion is preached by very clever people to others with weak minds, to bend their will, to influence their decision making, to coerce monies from them, to wage wars on their behalf...all in the name of some imaginary omnipresent being.

Like I said it's all a bunch of hokum bat .

[Saintslass]

<snip>

Like I said, I don't doubt that the Christian church has done despicable things in the past.  Your link was about something that happened in the past.  I don't remember Muslims beheading people and blowing them up or burning them alive in cages when the Catholic church were doing what your link said.  But my post did say AT PRESENT.

 

Oh, and I think it is important to identify the denominations of Christianity.  Methodists, for example, have never hurt a fly.  Of course there is sectarianism; we still see that in Ireland today.  But they aren't charging around the world blowing people up everywhere, AT PRESENT. 

 

 

I would wholeheartedly support our government committing our armed forces to support Israel if it were seriously threatened by any invading army.  I can understand WHY the Israelis act as they do towards anyone they see as a threat, I really can understand it and I doubt I'd act differently if I were in their shoes.  They've made themselves so hated but so feared that they provide their own safety, the surrounding hostile states know that Israel would not hesitate to fire its nukes as a last "f*** you" if it were about to be overrun.  That doesn't mean I can't be utterly disgusted by some of the actions of the Israelis towards the Palestinians. You can support a country and still dislike it, it's not a black and white world where supporting a country means you have to agree with everything it does.

I don't think they have made themselves hated and feared.  They were given lands to settle in after the second world war and the surrounding population has been resentful of that fact ever since.  The Israelis haven't helped their cause at times obviously and sometimes their reactions have been OTT.  And I didn't at any time say I agreed with everything Israel or any other country does.  I said I wasn't going to get into a discussion with a pro-Palestinian when I am pro-Israeli.  There is only one direction that is going, and I am applying the same principle to you on this subject as well.

[bowes]

No individual religion is better or worse, they are all as bad as each other.

That's like no individual political party is better or worse, they are all as bad as each other. And then using what Nazis and Communists have done to condemn the Liberal Democrats

[Saintslass]

So you are one eyed then?

No more so than you are.

 

 

 Regarding Israel I have no real interest in it and for me you have idiots on both sides who include religious leaders who encourage violence. I fail to see how you can not understand this. You obviously have a major chip on your shoulder regarding Islam. I think its rather pathetic to blame all the worlds problems on Islam and basically makes you a joke.

You appear to be reading someone else's posts entirely. 

 

 

Maybe you need to look at the way the Christian church has its fingers in weapon smuggling, child sex slavery , drugs and other things. This goes far more than telling lies and stealing money. Also the USA has been sticking its nose in to much of the Islamic World and creating problems. Muslim lands like Afghanistan were peaceful places until the West and Russia starting going in. How is that the fault of Islam?. The Vatican also has shares in Weapon Manufacturers and has been involved in helping sell weapons to start wars. Again how is that the fault of Islam?

You may not know this but church and state separated centuries ago in the US.  So you can't accuse the US of acting on religious grounds.  Muslim lands have never been peaceful.  You need to read more history. 

[JohnM]

eh up...I spot oxymoron.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12118368/British-anarchists-arrested-as-migrants-stormed-Port-of-Calais.html

[fatboystu]

All political parties are as bad as each other, politicians are in the main, in it for their own benefit rather than for the benefit of their constituents......again that's my opinion.

[ckn]

eh up...I spot oxymoron.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12118368/British-anarchists-arrested-as-migrants-stormed-Port-of-Calais.html

If they refuse to give their name or nationality to the court then that's contempt in any country.  One of the few things you can be sent to jail indefinitely for until you do at the judge says.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

No more so than you are.

 

You appear to be reading someone else's posts entirely. 

 

You may not know this but church and state separated centuries ago in the US.  So you can't accuse the US of acting on religious grounds.  Muslim lands have never been peaceful.  You need to read more history. 

I admit I am one eyed in certain things. However, the way you blame Islam for everything is absurd. The US Senate has over 50% of its members who are Jewish. Maybe coincidence maybe not, but the USA has been happy to cause Problems in many Muslim lands and has been happy to back and Support the Jewish Nation of Israel and done Little to stop the attacks from Israel on Muslims. Muslim lands have often never had peace because the west has forever been trying to Strip them lands of assets. Islam has Major Problems and it Needs to Change but not all the worlds Problems are because of Islam. The politicians of the west are far more to blame for the Problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran etc, than the Islam faith.

[ckn]

I admit I am one eyed in certain things. However, the way you blame Islam for everything is absurd. The US Senate has over 50% of its members who are Jewish. Maybe coincidence maybe not, but the USA has been happy to cause Problems in many Muslim lands and has been happy to back and Support the Jewish Nation of Israel and done Little to stop the attacks from Israel on Muslims. Muslim lands have often never had peace because the west has forever been trying to Strip them lands of assets. Islam has Major Problems and it Needs to Change but not all the worlds Problems are because of Islam. The politicians of the west are far more to blame for the Problems in Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran etc, than the Islam faith.

Tony Blair admitted that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 directly led to the creation if ISIS.  Alan Greenspan, former Federal Reserve Chairman, admitted the Iraq invasion was all about us controlling the oil.

 

Afghanistan was a minor boil on the bum of the Soviet Union so they invaded.  We (as in the west) went out of our way to radicalise and militarise the Taliban, they were our proxy for fighting the Soviets and received training and equipment from the very best stuff we had.  We even made it a religious war for them because we knew that that would help keep Pakistan at the forefront of the smuggling of equipment and training into Afghanistan.

 

If you look at most of the countries that have a major problem now with Islamic extremists you can usually find a western hand there somewhere that caused it.

[bowes]

 

If you look at most of the countries that have a major problem now with Islamic extremists you can usually find a western hand there somewhere that caused it.

 

I don't think that's true at all, if anything it's infantilising Muslims and saying they can't act without being told what to do with the West.

 

Algeria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan and Syria all have serious problems with Islamic extremism without any western influence on the countries. Not sure how you could blame the problems in Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Nigeria or Cameroon on the West either. The only common factor is a shared religion (and that isn't Islam in general, more the Salafist versions of it)

[JohnM]

Morocco?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3415477/Swedish-police-warn-Stockholm-s-main-police-station-overrun-migrant-teen-gangs-stealing-groping-girls.html

[WearyRhino]

 

Algeria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan and Syria all have serious problems with Islamic extremism without any western influence on the countries. Not sure how you could blame the problems in Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Nigeria or Cameroon on the West either. The only common factor is a shared religion (and that isn't Islam in general, more the Salafist versions of it)

 

The common factors are historical western imperialism and contemporary scarcity of resources. The 'west' and other influences have made sure that the resources, such as they are, are concentrated in the hands of those who are at best malleable and at worst acquiescent puppets.

[bowes]

The common factors are historical western imperialism and contemporary scarcity of resources. The 'west' and other influences have made sure that the resources, such as they are, are concentrated in the hands of those who are at best malleable and at worst acquiescent puppets.

That's much more true in countries like Morocco, UAE, Kuwait and Jordan which have far fewer issues with domestic extremism

[JohnM]

The common factors are historical western imperialism and contemporary scarcity of resources. The 'west' and other influences have made sure that the resources, such as they are, are concentrated in the hands of those who are at best malleable and at worst acquiescent puppets.

 

 

Just like old times! 

 

Western imperialism, nuclear free zones, capitalist running dogs...we are ALL guilty!  

[Saintslass]

If you look at most of the countries that have a major problem now with Islamic extremists you can usually find a western hand there somewhere that caused it.

Yep.  Obviously the West is to blame.  For everything actually. 

 

How about this: The first gulf war was caused by Iraq invading Kuwait.  Had Iraq not done that there would have been no second gulf war and therefore no ISIS (as according to the reasoning above it was the second war in Iraq that created ISIS).  So the blame for ISIS actually lies with Sadam Hussain. 

[Saintslass]

I don't think that's true at all, if anything it's infantilising Muslims and saying they can't act without being told what to do with the West.

 

Algeria, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan and Syria all have serious problems with Islamic extremism without any western influence on the countries. Not sure how you could blame the problems in Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Nigeria or Cameroon on the West either. The only common factor is a shared religion (and that isn't Islam in general, more the Salafist versions of it)

Some people, particularly leftwingers it seems, want to blame all the world's ills on the West.  Doing so appears to make them feel better somehow. 

[Saintslass]

I admit I am one eyed in certain things. However, the way you blame Islam for everything is absurd.

You are making things up again.  I haven't blamed Islam 'for everything' at all.

 

Have you heard about the terrible famine in Ethiopia?  It has been given code red.  Did the Muslims cause the rain to stop falling in Ethiopia?  No.

 

What I did say, though, was that AT PRESENT (and I used those very words), Islam is the religion causing trouble. 

[Shadow]

Yep.  Obviously the West is to blame.  For everything actually. 

 

How about this: The first gulf war was caused by Iraq invading Kuwait.  Had Iraq not done that there would have been no second gulf war and therefore no ISIS (as according to the reasoning above it was the second war in Iraq that created ISIS).  So the blame for ISIS actually lies with Sadam Hussain. 

If the US and UK amongst others had not supported Saddam Hussein in his 8 year war against Iran he would not have been strong enough, (assuming he'd survived the war with Iran) to invade Kuwait and if the US and UK amongst others had not armed and radicalised the Afghan Mujahideen against the Soviet invaders they wouldn't have become the dominant force they did and wouldn't have led to the Taliban and subsequently ISIS and Al Quaeda. 

So in both cases the blame for ISIS lies with errr Us and the USA

 

Not quite as straightforward as you thought this Geo Politics lark is it?

[bowes]

Some people, particularly leftwingers it seems, want to blame all the world's ills on the West. Doing so appears to make them feel better somehow.

Basically they're racist as they think only white people are capable of independent thought but non white people can only act as blameless victims with no capability for being responsible for their actions

[Saintslass]

If the US and UK amongst others had not supported Saddam Hussein in his 8 year war against Iran he would not have been strong enough, (assuming he'd survived the war with Iran) to invade Kuwait and if the US and UK amongst others had not armed and radicalised the Afghan Mujahideen against the Soviet invaders they wouldn't have become the dominant force they did and wouldn't have led to the Taliban and subsequently ISIS and Al Quaeda. 

So in both cases the blame for ISIS lies with errr Us and the USA

 

Not quite as straightforward as you thought this Geo Politics lark is it?

It isn't me suggesting simplistic causes for ISIS.  I leave that to others.

 

The only people to blame for ISIS are ISIS. 

[Wolford6]

The common factors are historical western imperialism and contemporary scarcity of resources. The 'west' and other influences have made sure that the resources, such as they are, are concentrated in the hands of those who are at best malleable and at worst acquiescent puppets.

 

 

The common factors are that Muslims have never been able to get on with each other, let alone communities of any differing religion.

[Saintslass]

Here is one reason why I do hope the government stands firm and doesn't agree to take in teenage migrants as it is presently under pressure to do from various charities and others: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/26/worker-stabbed-to-death-at-swedish-refugee-centre

[Saint Toppy]

Here is one reason why I do hope the government stands firm and doesn't agree to take in teenage migrants as it is presently under pressure to do from various charities and others: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/26/worker-stabbed-to-death-at-swedish-refugee-centre

Integrating immigrants into Western society is always going to be a major challenge and goes way beyond language barriers and even religious differences. Most come from a completely different culture where their social, moral and ethical values are totally at odds with those of most western countries.

Many of these young men have grown up in conflict zones and see violence as just a way of life. They have little or no respect for the law and treat others (such as women) like 2nd class citizens because that's how they were treated in their own countries.

The sexual assaults and rapes happening across Germany is largely cultural because these young men have been brought up on treating women like this and its engrained in them that they can. You can't suddenly expect them to change how they've always behaved just because they're now in a western society.

Regardless of the situation in their home countries these immigrants must obey our western laws and cultural norms or there's no place for them. First & foremost politicans have a duty to protect their own citizens and countries like Sweden and Germany are finding to their cost that not doing this is destabilizing their own societies.