The Parksider

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  1. It's from Neil Hudgell, it was posted on here , and is this:- “I think expansionism needs to be controlled, before we can fully embrace it. “France, I think everybody would agree that Catalans has been a success, I think a second team in France would also be a success. “Again London, they’ve been around 30 odd years, no-one’s really grabbed hold of it, it keeps moving, it’s sort of nomadic but again I can see a strategic need for London. “The game needs to take a brave decision whether to take control of London, David Hughes has been there forever and a day, he’s done a fabulous job.“But what’s the vision, and the reason to do it? And that’s probably why there’s (ALSO)a cautiousness about the Toronto experience". It's easy to read things the way you want to read them, but the quote directly supports TO for Superleague and in turn supports Catalans. Read past this idea of London in Superleague with Hudgell asking for a reason to take control of London before he then asks for a reason why TWP should be allowed in. In short he gives reasons why TO should be admitted, before asking for reasons why London or TWP should? Of course there is no reason to admit TWP no development of players despite clear promises at the start from Perez on TV to Dave Woods, and a logistical nightmare which Hudgell refers to. He skipped over London quickly to condemn TWP who he does not believe should have been in in the first place, and makes a veiled accusation Wood stuck them in without any thought (the idea being as he was heading for the RLIF he wasn't going to reject Canada and spoil his CV) Wishful thinkers as the OP is renowned for, can believe there is a plan to fund London, like they still believe a Transatlantic league is on the way, but remember the quote after their last collapse "Not even Branson could make it work". So the correct reading is Hudgell likes the idea of London but what is the reason to throw tens of £Millions we do not have at them every year?? There just isn't one. it would be a major waste of money. More fantasy RL. It's Toulouse Hudgell is supporting not London.
  2. The Parksider

    RL in the US - The Reality

    They are factual all right. If you really are up for a debate not a silly snipe based on selective research like the rest, then Let’s really go for it? Let’s have the debate? (1) Please look up how many RU clubs and players there are against RL clubs and players in North America and let me know your figures on that? You say “You have stated that you know that Hamilton and Boston didn't put bids in and NY has failed due to various reasons”. Please post your sources or stop commenting”……… Well the RFL told us who put bids in which were TWP and NY that's all. As for NY entering SL the RFL said Wood was going to check them out in January and make a decision at the end of April. Nothing has happened so can you explain why? I believe the bid was inadequate on this analysis here:- https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/opinion/matthew-hall-why-new-york-rugby-league-team-is-doomed-to-fail-with-or-without-jarryd-hayne/news-story/35cff4ed9ea21807e3d30c8d30c85b78 So what do you have? Now let’s debate Perez’s actual plans, not side issues. Here is a quote from Perez from some time back. “From minute one when I presented this to the RFL, we had a plan of expansion, Montreal next on the list by 2019. We’ve pretty big ownership groups that are interested. Hamilton would be logical, Boston is good speculation but there could be other cities. "When we started we knew that one team is not enough to bring new money into the sport. Now that Toronto is up and running it's time to get the next teams set up. We are looking to make SL the most commercially viable competition, To do that you need to have at least five or six clubs in the next 10 years." (2) Can you tell me where Hamilton, Boston and all these “other cities” with “big ownership groups” are two years on?? I can’t see them and have never heard from them?? Have you any proof they exist you can point me to?? (3) The plan to include these clubs was always about getting Superleague a massive TV contract, needing five or six NA clubs to come into Superleague to achieve that. So perhaps you will tell me what you think will happen to the game here in the UK if half our Superleague clubs are removed – along with their player development foundations and academies to make way for six NA clubs who won’t develop any players for many years as you agree? I think this will kill us here – what do you think? (4) As for Canadian player development please understand this was never about the kids in Canada, Look here Perez speaks about quickly converting High School and College Grid Iron players to play RL and that was going to be done as a reality TV show he was going to sell for big bucks. Watch the video towards the end and then tell me what has happened to Perez’s ACTUAL player development plans? I believe nothing, zilch, nada. This is an honest genuine challenge to you or anyone else to deal with the exact plans Perez stated in public that he had, to develop North America and make Superleague rich in the process. I think they are a load of rubbish, now discuss with me why they are not?
  3. The Parksider

    RL in the US - The Reality

    There were no applications made from Boston or Hamilton, and the New York application that was actually made and considered by the RFL appears to have now been dropped. The analysis of this NY bid was that it was underfunded and unlikely to succeed against a dozen stronger sports clubs in NY. The idea of SL1 and SL2 was not two professional divisions at all, it was two leagues under the control of Superleague as opposed to the RFL. Only about 12 clubs are viable as fully pro outfits. It's two years since Perez started out on his Transatlantic project that was to culminate with 5-6 North American clubs in Superleague who would attract a massive North American TV deal and who would supply quality players into the game through converting young grid iron players from high schools and colleges to league. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIlV68mYc4 With the deepest respect to you two years on those plans have not come to pass, leaving TWP isolated as a club that find itself unable to develop players and isolated from Superleague by 3,000 miles. Please watch Mr. Perez set out his vision ESPECIALLY for player growth in Canada then consider that this just never happened. Whilst it suits you to take that stance, you have to remember that quality RL players do not grow on trees. Here in England the game is so small that we have to import about 70 surplus NRL players into our 300 player pool. Of the 230 home grown professional players they virtually all come from along the M62 from places like Leeds, St.Helens, Wigan, Warrington, Widnes. Hull, Castleford, Wakefield, Bradford, Huddersfield, and Halifax. In France there are only a handful of quality RL players hence Les Cats heavily import players and the French national team are poor. When Superleague as a 14 club set up ran into problems back in 2014 it was because there weren't enough quality players leaving clubs like Bradford, London and Wakefield collapsing on the field, and consequently off it, so they cut to 12 clubs, and considered going to 10 which remains on the table. Clubs can only produce players if they are in SL and have the TV money to fund their player production operations, so if Widnes are replaced by Toronto then Widnes stop developing players. As for the idea Toronto's player development "will take time" the fact is it is not even happening after two years and the reason for that is all the kids play union, and outside the M62 that is our problem too. Watch the Perez interview, even he did not say TWP would train up Canadian kids to become RL players, he said he would convert grid iron players..... He said he wanted as many canadians as possible to play for TWP, he said he would stage an 8 city tour of Canada trialling canadian grid iron players for TWP, he said this would be televised as a reality TV show, in a massive deal, he said there were 100,000 such young players to go at who all had similar skills sets to Rugby League - look it up...........but he did nothing about this..... You must remember Perez revived RL in Canada about 2010 and 8 years on there is no sign at all of a junior game, because not even he could get one going. Like it or not the player issue is massive. TV will only pay big money if the games are played professionally and skillfully at a high level, without the blow out scores we started to get. Let's not forget what TWP served up to the BBC in the challenge cup tie at Warrington. In 2009 our SL clubs had to develop players as a condition of their licenses and in 2014 they were paid £Millions by SKY to fund this. Salford indeed reneged on this and are set to leave SL. Mr. Elstone has recently underlined his requirement that SL clubs must develop players. Like it or not they must, or the game dies. Mr. Perez aknowledged this in the 2016 interview with Dave Woods I note above, and he said he would convert grid iron players. He too reneged on this, and it's no good you just saying "it doesn't matter" as it seriously does matter.
  4. The Parksider

    RL in the US - The Reality

    Of course they are not doing any "legwork". TWP aren't about building the game in Canada, they are about getting an Australian Billionaire a top level club. Perez who has been helping Argyle to get his personal wish gave up on Canada RL to go and do this, and neither of them have given any regard to using North American players, nor any regard to the idea they would contribute to developing players. This is exactly the problem Lenegan and Elstone have with them, they are an English/Aussie team in an English league there on the pretence of "developing" North America. TWP have given CRL some money so they can boast they are helping develop the game in Canada but they are not doing this. As for "Ignorant" I am not ignorant of how Canada failed completely to develop the game in Canada from 1980 to 2000 when it died out completely. I am not ignorant of the fact Perez revived it in 2010 and he too failed to get anywhere in what is a Rugby Union country through and through. People really do need to read up the facts here, RL development in Canada failed twice over the last 38 years which is why Argyle and Perez are not going to try and do this again. The new head of Canada RL can tinker about all he wants but Pro RU has come to Canada and RL in Canada don't have a chance, in what is in Rugby terms a wholly Union country. I'm very surprised at you saying this. Let's get this right. TWP are on the verge of being promoted to Superleague, and Widnes sit bottom of that league. This is the nightmare scenario Rimmer was worried about in January and now Elstone fears this happening. TWP with no player development at all and a few thousand fans replace Widnes also with a few thousand fans BUT a long history of developing top class players, with a development foundation with links to schools and junior clubs, and an academy system developing top players. The loss of that player development in Widnes for a club who if they formed a Canadian kids team would not have any opposition to play would be highly damaging. And don't forget this Perez nonsense was designed to see more NA clubs pushing out M62 clubs and their development foundations and academies. I cannot think of anything more damaging - why do you not get this good sir?
  5. The Parksider

    RL in the US - The Reality

    Cut out the "usual suspect" rubbish, a growing number of people on here now understand the reality of this North American dream and like it or not Moore understands even England and NZ in a full test does not sell at a profit there. He will not go on losing money until 2025. You tell me how making a big fat loss is a "Great effort" your words?? You wilfully change the premise of the North American project to make an argument. You and everyone else know, as Perez himself spelled it out "we need 5-6 north american clubs in superleague to attract a north american TV deal". Scotchy knows and you know full well the TWP project is not about obtaining 6,000 Canadian fans, a figure often disputed - especially as they won't be coming here to spend anything as Lenegan said, and as for your "Canadian sponsors of which there are many" you set them out for me and what income they bring to the game here? Over to you, and forget TWP TV as that was a zero money deal. So come on how much?? Let's see if this sticks, after two years not one rich North American has come forward to invest in RL in North America. Of only two applications, one was Aussie argyles TWP the other englishman Wilby's New York which hasn't happened. You say "You have to invest money, time and effort to cultivate these things". Fair enough, but you tell me where the other 4-5 investors needed to spend "money time and effort" alongside TWP to "cultivate" that much needed massive American TV deal are? That was the whole point even though you and Scotchy choose to completely ignore it and throw out stuff like "Bizzare" and "Mental". Now maybe you both will come clean on the business issue? It ain't worked has it lads? But please also come clean on the "competition" issue can either of you admit for once that MLR exists in North America? Can you both acknowledge it has a business plan to directly crush Rugby league there with new clubs lined up to move into Toronto and New York, clubs that will attract all the best young Rugby kids?. So over to you two Gentlemen or Ray Cee (who thinks RL will develop at least in Toronto ignoring the fact MLR has now arrived), or Canadian Rugger (who thinks Warren Buffet is on board with RL) to actually honestly discuss how in the circumstances TWP are left in can they ever grow the game in North America, find partners to do this with them to get that massive TV deal, and develop a grass roots game when Union have that sewn up and in all matters are in direct competition with League?
  6. The Parksider

    RL in the US - The Reality

    This reality has been available to look up for two years now, a few enthusiasts play the league version of Rugby whilst literally three thousand Union clubs and a quarter of a million players in North America play the established union version of the rugby game. When we talk about North American expansion via investment, in that two years there has been no such investment from North Americans. TWP are an Australians investment and are an English club in an English league struggling with playing 3,000 miles away. New York was an English investment that was deemed inadequate. What also has to be realised is REAL investors in Union in North America spotted the possible competition and have planned to set up pro Union clubs in Ontario, New York and Boston to ensure League is killed at birth. The article fails to mention RU, and when mentioned on here it’s always dismissed, even though the reason we cannot get out of the M62 is the rest of Great Britain is playing Union to very high levels of participation and investment. After the Denver game in which the crowd didn’t come up to scratch and was heavily excused, it was noted that Mr. Moore “had almost certainly made a loss” on his promotion.This was the big toe in the water and one wonders whether that was that and whether the idea that the award of the 2025 world cup to North America was “provisional” will mean that it may get pulled unless something explosive happens? As for "Copying the Toronto Model" this was one billionaire Aussie buying a pro team from here, failing to invest anything in juniors and struggling with the logistics of a 3,000 mile travel headache. Surely you mean "copying the Toronto mistake"?? Lets not keep up the myth that this very heavy loss making venture that is a logistical nightmare is somehow a "model" for others to follow. It was a money grab Ray, which cost Moore who "almost certainly" made a loss on it. The "Governing bodies" of RL in USA and Canada are hardly capable of staging a World cup, the Canadian governing body was Eric Perez, and the USA governing body won't even be as big as the the governing body of of the amateur NCL here. Yes it needs rich backers of which none have come forward in two years, all we have has is Perez's tiresome hints and mumblings something big is going on. That it's not and that staging a major test in the USA was a loss maker then what price the RL world cup even going ahead? Who is going to make up the losses? Maybe Perez's $$Billionaire TV friends? This leaves the headache of TWP's likely march into Superleague? What is the point as we now know nobody is following them and they aren't stimulating any development of the game in Canada, or the World cup 2025. They are a logistical nightmare for other clubs and exist mainly for the titilation of one man. I note Elstone has started saying clubs who do not develop juniors may not be allowed in Superleague. Everyone pointed to him meaning Salford (who will fall for reasons other than no academy) and they scrambled to excuse TWP with daft ideas how they could meet this new criteria for entry. I think he probably meant Toronto as if the investment in NA has failed, if the World cup tester has lost money, and if the analysis is RL has no chance there, and above all if the World cup is pulled what is the point of TWP? Finally note Elstone's praise for Toulouse, it's quite clear who he and therefore the SL clubs prefer to be entering SL next season. If that happened at least it would be some sort of compensation for the impending death of the American dream....
  7. The Parksider

    league one

    This is the silliest idea ever, that Superleague clubs whose focus must be to keep the game strong in the heartlands (hence they run foundations and their own development teams who produce pro players) should do something like this, spending time and resources on places that don't produce pro players or fans of any significant number. Really silly. Remember Newcastle date back nearly 20 years and although they have 900 fans and a small junior game, the dying West Cumbria has two club totalling 1200 fans, a small junior game AND some strong NCL clubs, like Kells Egremont and Wath Brow. Lets not pretend the more heavily populated North East is a roaring success. It maybe could be if the owner at Newcastle actually spent some real big money. London have been around nearly 40 years and it was always big enough to run an amateur league via the SARL even when Union apartheid was around. As it stands they have crowds totalling about 1300 between the two clubs there, and again a small amateur game that produces the odd professional now and again. And that is it, other pins in maps are based on even smaller local games with so called professional clubs only viable due to SKY funding that nearly went until Superleague were fought off. Don't make any plans to welcome all these expansion clubs into SL if the next TV deal does not repeat at £200M which it certainly will not. I'm all for expansion and I love to see the smallest successes, but to create a fantasy out of it is not for me. It's disingenuous. It's not real world. We got to the point not long ago clubs were taking ££££thousands to bus players down from the north to be able to put out a team in what the game pretends is a professional third tier. It just isn't that. It was created to keep the championship an even competitive league (ruined eventually by the middle 8's) and then expanded after the collapse of Superleague in London and Wales to give an illusion Rugby League expansion under licensing had not failed. That was really silly, as is your idea. I'd at least put Newcastle, Skolars and West Cumbria into a bigger championship with a sensible salary cap to sink or swim, their choice, but let's not pretend at a time funding for league one and the clubs themselves us set to go, that all these tiny clubs are somehow growing apace it's just a mattr of time - check the time it's taking Donny and Eagles to "grow" when they are right next to the heartlands. 58 and 35 years to go nowhere.
  8. The Parksider

    How do we build support?

    Ray - Your "opinion" is not evidence. You do not know how well clubs are run because you have no idea of how they are staffed, how they are financed, what their local market is in terms of interest in RL, which can differ in Wigan to Salford, and what marketing strategies and policies each follow. What is it you "see" from your computer screen in NZ - is it a league table?? Is that your evidence?? If you have any real evidence based on analysis, please set it out for me... Businesses can be analysed to come to these conclusions, but not blindly off the top of your head from a keyboard many miles away. I can fairly deduce that the clubs can share best practice which you agree with but now are starting to tell me some must not be taking the advice. This is a strange conclusion to come to, why would they not? but I suppose it fits your original conclusion, again based on nothing, and certainly not logical. If Widnes can only sell 4,000 tickets to a game and Warrington 10,000 there are a raft of reasons for this, which we could discuss, so you cannot fairly conclude straight away Widnes are inept and just do not listen. As for my "Charm" I hold a different opinion to those who think North America is the future and have done for two years. I was right that the player development promised was fake, I was right that the Transatlantic league won't work and won't happen because it will damage the game here, I am right that there are no North American investors behind any of this and MLR will see off any RL development setting up RU teams against RL, with any chance we have of a foothold being in the hands of Mr. Moore not Mr Perez. Check the shedloads of real nasty abuse and calls to put me on ignore for daring to have an alternative view, and what's more a correct opinion on the matter many others are coming round to. I'll take no lessons from you Ray........ I'd like to see RL marketing managers here have a right to reply to yours and others accusations..........
  9. The Parksider

    How do we build support?

    Dear me. My first Hunslet/Leeds derby in the mid sixties was not big at all nor were the ones after that. My days at Leeds/Bradford derbies in the seventies certainly were, I can remember now Kevin Dick making a fantastic cross field run to foil a David Redfearn try before a packed south stand. You may wish to refer to the times before that but Leeds biggest crowd ever was against Bradford in 1947. Finally the idea Sheffield where nobody is much interested in RL could ever create a derby with Leeds is pure fantasy which as usual spoils these threads..... Why on earth do you believe the marketing departments at clubs don't talk, when they sell games together? Why on earth on matchdays do you believe the directors and senior staff of the competing clubs don't discuss marketing best practice when they entertain each other on matchdays?? And as there are no more applications, and has never been any interest from any potential rich North Americans, the whole thing is dead save for Superleague needing another rich owner in the field. I can see Lenegan trying to persuade Argyle to pick up a club here instead. As for your idea RL needs to become "glamorous" it's just meaningless nonsense. Wait whilst TWP start losing games in SL next year, and then tell me they are worth £Millions to an American TV channel. Watch out for Argyle picking up an English club instead? Anyway this thread poses the question how to build support. I don't go for these fantasy threads that are full of hairbrained ideas that there is some magic solution like"social media" or "glamour" or "more and more marketing = more and more fans" that will see interest in Rugby League just grow and grow. The question should be how do we maximise and maintain support? I think Superleague from 1996 to date that brought us professional RL grew support, and grew a team of rich owners who provide financial support. The first thing to do in the here and now is not slip backwards. I'd love to see more rich owners - so maybe that's a plus if Argyle gets in SL, and Beaumont as well. I'd also love to see the new grounds at Cas and Wakey developed, I'd also like to see a change to the structure to cut the nonsense of the middle eights, in a few less fixtures, all of which we at least know the dates for in advance. Like the brilliant post from Mr. RP London, it's a number of sensible things that can combine to maximise our crowds, and whilst that may be only by a bit more than we have now, at least it's something that is real and achievable. Unlike the glamorous clubs dotted all over Great Britain nonsense.
  10. The Parksider

    Keighley in trouble once again.

    I don't miss your point at all AB, but you miss mine in that having a third tier of so called pro Rugby puts off fans paying to watch games at that level, especially against clubs whose players are not as good as top amateurs. Read your post back. It says "IF" five times over. In every case you project 20 people who currently are not intending to go watch a poor Keighley against equally poor opposition, suddenly seeing the light, and in every case parting with £10 and losing two to three hours of their life to do so. As for inviting kids to play at half time then stinging the parents, well that's pretty much not on. Mate, it's all wishful thinking, in which suddenly you have persuaded people who had no intention of parting with their money to do just that? And what is this "build on" business? Are you saying once they have gone to the game they will start going every week, whilst you pull more disinterested fans in to part with their hard earned? It's fantasy marketing that as ever is based on the idea if only people knew there was a game on they would go. Of course if it's York riding the crest of a wave there will be fans in two minds whether to catch the latest handsome win on the way to promotion to erm.....The championship which would be a real hook to increase crowds. Not scrubbing about in league one, and I may tell you I was watching when York Wasps were in the third tier and the interest in York was so low only 280 people turned up to see York beat Chorley. Perhaps that 280 was "something to build on" ? Well it wasn't as they dissolved just a week or so after that. My point is to sell a product it has to be attractive to some relevant degree, my point is stop binning off great old RL clubs into a third tier keep them all in the Championship. Don't put them where they are likely to lose half their crowd.
  11. The Parksider

    How do we build support?

    We did get big investment in such clubs. Big Aussie consortium invested in Gateshead/Newcastle in 1999 and Virgin through Branson invested in London Broncos in 1999. A lot of private money went in and neither worked both going under quickly. People may wish to call a realist's view "negative", but I've had decades of these "expansion" theories in their droves. What everyone misses is if you want RL to succeed, concentrate on the less glamorous detail of keeping the game going where it has some strength, and where it does succeed, rather than the ultimate dreamland of this next post............. Sorry BP but you really need to read a lot more up about Rugby here. Our RL infrastructure here is limited to the big clubs in only a part of the north of England. Outside that RU dominate heavily with almost a monopoly on Rugby interest from investors, players and fans. Our historical infrastructure leaves RL no chance of getting any sort of a foothold, outside the heartlands, and we have tried for over 120 years to get this. Even close to home in the big northern cities of Sheffield, Liverpool and Manchester who know our game, RL has tried hard for years to get a foothold but Soccer overwhelmingly dominates. This inability for us to expand the game against the other two codes of football due to our small size means that expansion has always been a dream that often dominates reality. I've heard your dreams 100 times before. That reality has to be keeping the game alive in St.Helens and Wigan. The fact is these two clubs over the years have attracted massive crowds and produced most of the top players in their county. Saints record attendance is 36,000 against Wigan and Wigans record is 47,000 against St. Helens. Their success was built in Victorian times and kept alive by a local tradition of RL passing from generation to generation over 150 years. Yes it's a "local game for local folk" but it sold to TV for £200M last time. It's heavily admired as TV audiences show, but there aren't the people outside the north who want to play it, and as for investing in it through "Franchises" see above. We invited clubs to apply for Superleague in 2009 through a form of franchising and clubs in London and South Wales got in but again both collapsed because Soccer and RU dominate so heavily in their areas. Your posts lack any understanding of the game here, but to be fair to you most people who love Rugby League will talk it up all day, and few will challenge them with the stark realities. The bottom line is if you do anything to break up the big clubs here, who develop the players, attract the fans and get real TV deals unlike Perez's fantasy $Billion dollar TV deal. you will break what little strength we have. Cue "negative" accusations, to be countered by "fantasist" accusations? No, let's just be real about this.
  12. The Parksider

    Keighley in trouble once again.

    If it's as free and easy as that, you need to explain why 60% of new businesses go bust in their first year? You make the mistake of believing the marketing is more important than the product, and that marketing always works. If it does why don't all clubs market and market whilst all crowds go up and up? The product being offered to the good people of Keighley is two poor teams playing in a third tier, have you not considered that THAT is the problem. and THAT is why people who know full well they play pro-RL in keighley are not attending?? And there you have it, the reality of this idea market and they will come in their droves. What keighley need is to get back the 500 real life keighley fans who stopped going when the club fell into the third tier. Not "a few extra". As others are pointing out to you winning helps, but games of a low standard against woeful opposition hinders far more so, as for Bradford they are big time losers, their crowds used to be 15,000 so it is a fact they have managed to lose more fans than any other club in their demise. Leaving York, who prove my point. What keighley need is another John Flatman and his consortium of businessmen to invest in the club, to bring in better players, to head towards the championship and that success in itself will bring hundreds of keighley fans back to the club plus new fans...... not banging away on social media trying to sell abject failure. Now that is "mental"
  13. The Parksider

    Keighley in trouble once again.

    There was nothing plain about it, you could just explain yourself instead of sniping all the time. It is a discussion site. The point is that a third tier is a third rate level of RL, and at one point when the new clubs were being beaten by NCL amateur clubs in the cup it became apparent to people that it was pretty much a fourth rate league. It's clear to me that the fans in the traditional areas do not buy into watching their club play Oxford, Gloucester, Skolars, Coventry, West Wales, etc. Do you agree? There's a post on here saying keighley should "Market" the games better to attract fans. This is one of the silly accusations that they are not being well run. At their height Keighley attracted 3,700 fans in the Championship. The fans who may want to go, know full well when Keighley are playing, they know who they are playing and at what level, and they freely choose not to watch it. "Market" all you want. Third/fourth rate RL does not sell. Simple as. Keighley need what all clubs need which is someone to walk in with a pocketful of money. That's how clubs get turned around in reality. Many of your "well run" clubs simply have someone who sticks money in to pay for the better players. These clubs are not businesses in the real sense, they are playthings for businessmen. Many make the mistake of thinking clubs with richer owners are "well run" and clubs without a rich owner are "badly run". The fortunes of my club Hunslet were always directly linked to how much the directors had to put in at any one time. Keighley cannot "trade" their way out of trouble as they can't sell third rate RL (maybe they can sell the ground - and that sort of thing has been done before) My point is second tier RL sells better to the fans than third tier RL. In 1999 there were 32 clubs and only two "tiers" or divisions. The keighley's the Barrow's The Workington's and the Whitehaven's weren't doing that well on the pitch generally losing, but they attracted 1200 fans on average in that league. Last year the same clubs were winning in League one but attracted only 800 fans on average. So the problem clearly is having a third tier, nobody wants to watch, and nobody can "build" their club in. In terms of your questions Mr. Lenegan wanted rid of 18 clubs so I am saying you could get rid of a lot less by just making the second tier a lot bigger league**, and as for "new clubs" (if there are any more which I doubt) if they have money like TO and TWP they can easily start in a second tier. If they don't have money they will go nowhere anyway as the idea of "organic growth" is clearly a myth. **Chalmers thinks SL will go to 14 clubs. The championship could go to 20
  14. The Parksider

    Keighley in trouble once again.

    What exactly is your point BSJ you make nothing clear here?? I can't see anyone else actually making a clear point either? Most posts are a lament about the decline of the game and a lack of interest in it. This is all based on nowt more than poor crowds in a third tier. You can go back way before Superleague and find three divisions, you can find traditional clubs like Barrow on 500 crowds against Nottingham and Chorley, who themselves were on crowds of 270 and 430 averages. You can find the Nottingham.v.Barrow "crowd" of 101 in 1992. As I say I saw Keighley.v.Bramley before 500 and that was a few years earlier. If it's all fundamentally "gone now" how do you explain York's recent success? Over to you? They do not think that and never have done. What they think is that three tier pro-Rugby League is unsustainable at a third level. The chairmen of Hunslet (Graham Liles) and Workington came out and said this over a quarter of a century ago. IIRC three divisions was a Gary Hetherington invention in his Sheffield days. The third division invented then was called the "league of death" because of the poor public response to poor fixtures against poor clubs. No different now. The Keighley, Workington, Barrow and Whitehaven clubs cannot attract crowds playing at third tier against glorified amateurs. There was no issue for these clubs when a few short years back they were in the Championship which was 14 clubs in 2014. Then the leagues were cut to 12 and TWP and TO also came in squeezing Keighley, Barrow Workington and Whitehaven down to what is to fans a mickey mouse league. No matter how "close the results" the fans look at a third tier and the clubs in it like Oxford, Gloucester, Hemel, West Wales etc etc and see them as no different to Trafford, Chorley, Highfield and Nottingham. And they have a point. When traditional northern clubs are getting your "closer games" against Hemel or West Wales this will dismay the fans even more, it puts them off because Keighley fans want to see close games with Halifax not Hemel Hempstead. All the woffle about the games decline aside, the customer is always right and the solution is sadly to cut the third tier. We once ran with 18 clubs in the championship in 1999. Barrow got 1100, Haven 850. Town 1050 and Keighley 1800. SL may go to 14 so we could minimise cutting clubs, whilst improving fixtures and crowds. The game is NOT dying, it's just very badly run outside SL and the same stupid mistakes are being made in which the RFL cannot let go of the idea of "bottom up expansion" which is the problem, it does not work, clubs do not want it, and when they are thrown out of the Championship to accommodate it in Mickey Mouse land, and their fans stay at home they will understandably bankrupt themselves to get out of it. And I can't blame them for one second.....
  15. The Parksider

    Toronto

    Two clubs have little chance of staying in SL. Widnes have no financial benefactor any more, and nor do Salford. Messrs Mr. O'Connor and Dr. Koukash have left their clubs and their player budgets have dropped to c.£1.4M to survive financially (for now). Contrast that with Argyles spending power. These clubs are losing matches hand over fist and will lose their best players to other SL clubs as is the way of these things. This is why Mr. Lenegan was keen to drop Superleague to 10 clubs as soon as possible. The last time two clubs hit money problems was 2014 when London and Bradford collapsed (and they went to 12 clubs). If Salford and Widnes stay it will be very embarrassing for Superleague to see two clubs without the funds to compete smashed every week. However the plan to drop to 10 SL clubs was defeated by the Championship clubs asserting their rights to have the current 12 club structure (less the middle eights) stay as it is until 2021. Above all this structure gives the championship clubs a lot of money up to that date. They have done you boys a favour. Stay exactly where you are, no flouncing off. In January Ralph Rimmer made it plain Toronto would have no automatic right to SL entry as they were guests. He meant business, as this publicly upset Rowley who offered money to get TWP a pass into SL if they won the qualifiers. Happily you boys did not have your usual fingers in your ears, albeit you thought it was a good idea TWP could come in and not take a share of SKY money, but keep all of the alleged $$Billion dollar TV deal Perez will get at some mystery later date (see below) In late June (last week) a journo finally asked Mr. Lenegan the awkward question about would he still block TWP, and the answer was, if TWP won promotion that he and his fellow SL chairmen "would have no problem" with TWP coming in, alongside various eulogies for what a great man "David" was. The block on a 10 club Superleague has now meant SL must stay at 12 and SL needs clubs with money to replace those collapsing, and so not only TWP could go up but so could Toulouse. Enjoy. Your dissembling. This was never about growing the "brand" of one club in Canada, which is a meaningless phrase. It was always about the growth of RL in North America. It was about 5-6 clubs in a transatlantic Superleague that Perez said would lead to that $$$Billion dollar TV deal for rugby league that Rowley laughingly tried to use as a non-existent bribe to release the block on TWP. Remember this, applications for SL came in from TWP and New York, and nearly Boston, but that was that. nothing since. The New York bid did not go through and so Boston did not make a bid, but certainly the MLR were watching this with interest and as you know, setting up for professional RU clubs in Toronto, New York and Boston to head off the competition from Rugby league. The transatlantic dream is dead. But Superleague need the money TWP and TO can provide to maintain 12 competitive teams in Superleague - for now. Unless Canada start producing players, or TO manage to get the low number of quality french players up, both clubs could provide a very nice financial stop gap to SL until 2021. What happens then we really don't know, it's all speculation. But in the here and now "events dear boy" as a famous UK prime minister once said, have opened up the door to TWP and TO. Enjoy......