The Parksider

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  1. The Parksider

    Toronto six it up....

    The principle is they are hardly going to be welcomed by Superleague clubs if they start signing up top quality players out of Superleague and then playing them in the Championship. The best players are more than ever needed in SL and on the Telly. Do not forget that last January Superleague told them through Rimmer they would not be coming in, and that clearly was about players because after that announcement they started running round England pretending to set up player development systems in Manchester, then Bradford then London towing their one man academy Ngwati around with them. SL clubs were planning a 10 club Superleague at the time, because with O'Connor leaving, Beaumont leaving and Koukash probably fully ending his support to Salford there weren't enough rich owners. Then we had the row with the Championship who swung it so there would still be a 12 club Superleague. At that time Argyle became a necessity to make the numbers up. Make the numbers up....Not go round signing up marquee players at silly money the top SL clubs want playing for them. Also as Danny Lockwood pointed out last week TWP are needed so the other 11 SL clubs can take their SKY money off them and share it amongst themselves. AND with McDermott set to coach TWP remember what he said about how hard it was to recruit SL quality players to London when you are "200 miles from the M62". They are far more cosy all playing along the M62 rather than making the long journey south. Toronto you may have forgotten is 3,000 miles away and AFAIK players will have to travel that every other week. Something like 100,000 miles a season?? Again it's pins in maps stuff. On the map it's only several inches between the M62 and Toronto, in real life the travel will be a curse. TWP need to know their place and know what is expected of them. They are expected to tow the line because in Perez's own words they offer little to SL as the only American club. Nothing more than an owner who can afford full cap..........
  2. The Parksider

    Ideas thread

    On what basis do you think these things can be “ensured”? This is cut throat business and we are up against massive competition. Who are these marketing genius’s and what are their magic solutions to ensure “long term growth or indeed survival”? There is a long list of top class businesses in various markets that have succeeded brilliantly down the years but have gone on to fail for some very understandable reasons. Every business failure is not automatically due to ineptitude, or failing to find some marketing genius to halt the slide. Often it is the consumers who decide these things. I like the example of Salford who are up against City and United and like it or not there are Wigan fans in Manchester who can be seen boarding trains at Piccadilly station to Wigan on matchdays. Down to 3,000 for a Widnes game Marwan decided to let fans in for free and 5,000 turned up to watch Salford pile up 50 against Catalans. The game after that they were back down to 3,000 again. Giving it away was the last desperate marketing tactic he used and it didn’t work. The last game at the Willows saw 10,000 so you can work out that unless you provide a stadium people like, and fixtures that have meaning to them rather than two losers, they will, even if Salford are giving it away decide largely not to bother. Your problem is you think Marketing is something that makes people buy into things. It’s doesn’t. It can only encourage people to do that. OK Let’s take some poorly attended clubs. Michael Carters Wakefield, Steve O’Connors Widnes and Ken Davey’s Huddersfield Giants. Do you know just how successful these gentlemen were in their respective companies outside Rugby League, do you know what money they made and how many customers their business’s attracted?? Why do you and all the others on here believe that these club owners are inept to the point they are missing out on thousands of fans because the “marketing” isn’t right. Useless to the point they need “consultants” to tell them how to do it? Has it ever dawned on you the problem could be the product?? I thought not. Marketed for years as “The greatest game” it’s certainly not that if attendances and participation in Soccer and Rugby Union dwarf our numbers? We are where we are and we have what we have and yes we need to make the best of it. This is where Lenegan’s 2x10 SL came from. A top division of competitive clubs all with rich owners to underpin them to provide the best quality games possible with the limited number of quality players. Below that a similar pool of ambitious clubs looking for their chance. That would be the best product to offer SKY to maximise our chance of another decent contract and that is the key. The key isn’t this ridiculous idea that “Marketing Consultants” should come in and show our rich smart businessmen owners how to do it.
  3. The Parksider

    Ideas thread

    Well that's a fantastic help. What meaningless drivel. Have you not thought that if the clubs stop doing what they do now to promote and market the game to maximise income and attendance, and do something else, crowds may actually fall? So do you really believe there are "experts" out there who can pull the game round and drive it back towards the nigh on 10,000 a game average SL attendances we were enjoying 10 years ago? I have lived through the times when the RFL have spent a lot of money commissioning such experts, who are happy to charge massive fees for a glossy report leading to no more fans. What exactly is it these "experts" know that Gary Hetherington and his sales and marketing team do not already know? If these experts can charge clubs £20K to then boost ticket sales by £30K do you not think they would already have been employed? All SL clubs are run by big successful businessmen who know all about marketing, something that is spectacularly missed here as above. I'd like to see Scotchy and Dave T go head to head with Hetherington and Moran in a debate as to why Leeds and Wire are missing a marketing trick.... "Great ideas" are ten a penny and always have been, but when tried they often do not turn out that great. It's nonsense we do "Sweet FA", what we have done is try all sorts down the years, and looked at what works and what doesn't. We have always set marketing budgets such that we get some sort of return from that spend, and make that marketing cost effective. Anyone who has no business brain can spend £10,000 extra on the marketing budget and sell £5,000 worth of extra tickets for that is what you can get when you don't make sensible and measured marketing decisions. Yes Bulls used to put on a show copying Keighley who did the same whilst running up a massive debt. I was there when T'Pau were booked to play a set before the game so they really pushed that boat out. Problem was I like most others were there for the Rugby League. Bulls game day experience was so successful they dumped it. If we want higher attendances it's very very easy. Put the Bulls back in Superleague and take out Salford. That would probably lift average attendances from 8,800 to 9,300. But lets's certainly NOT dump Thursday or Friday night matches and play Sundays only. Because we just may not have a £200M TV deal if we do that? Oh hang on if we aren't on TV maybe more fans will come to games. How is that for another genius expert idea???
  4. The Parksider

    London in Superleague

    Nigel Wood and nobody else made that rod for Superleagues back. Also remember that the "betrayal" is all Perez's. He promised more players and more North American clubs and then proposed a transatlantic league that would kill clubs here. Do you not recall Superleague clubs Paris being abandoned? Do you not recall Wales being abandoned, do you not recall the first Gateshead being abandoned? Yet somehow the Canadians are "special"? As for the "Massive blow" Smudger, as above the rest of the Sporting World have seen RL expansion fail again and again for many years why do you think anyone outside our game give a monkeys? How do you see this disadvantaging us? It hasn't before? This is irrelevant. Yes I like all RL people of course I do, why would I not, even though I've had over two years of abuse from some of their fans on here!! All this is a matter of is what is best for Superleague. Do you think it's best for Superleague that it goes Transatlantic and TWP and five more alleged NA clubs replace six SL clubs here and 180 players here are transferred to Canada as they won't produce any players in the timescale suggested probably never as RU grows apace there. That is the plan which Perez is following as simple as. Why can't you question that? Why can't you question Perez? Is he a messiah to you? I'm not denigrating anyone AC. When it comes to Mr. Hughes's London remember the lad has been putting his families money in since 1996. We should all thank him for that. In 2005 when Virgin left he was about to close the club when he and Tony Rea decided to carry on and carry on they did. By 2014 he was struggling having lost Ian Lenegan along the way, and his family had concerns about how much he personally was losing. He's now found a ground he can afford and settle into and he can afford Championship full time wages, plus with RFL help he keeps the academy going. All respect to this legendary RL man. For people like Scotchy to demand even more of the man is intolerable and disrespectful. The "means" by which London Broncos survive would be dwarfed by the means by which London Skolars could survive and prosper if David Argyle pumped his $Millions of dollars in there. Argyle has a very real stake in the club and so we are not talking fantasy RL here, as the Skolars chairman states Skolars WILL stay in London and WILL NOT move to Fantasyland. David Lawrenson wrote the piece on Bronco's 2005 resurrection and he took the view that "We need a Superleague club in London try selling priceless sponsorships and advertising to a major international company when the sport is only played at top level along the M62" This is very much the Perez argument, but the means by which he wants to make the game more expansive is actually destructive if you take six SL clubs out of Superleague and replace them with six North American clubs. This is where you get your "impressions" from. Perez's two years plus of big talk that has seen no more big investors actually following TWP. Why do you not get it that they are not really there? And so in the real world as opposed to Perez's fantasy world (which I would say to Smudger is not challenged by anyone in the game here because that will be an embarrassment if the reality was realised) we can expand Superleague to make the game more viable, with TWO clubs in London and TWO clubs in France. in the top two divisions. People can scoff all they like but that is a bigger reality than a Transatlantic league and in addition we can increase the player development straight away with clubs like London Skolars and Toulouse Olympic rather than waiting 20 years!! You choose? The reality of an expanded European League or the Fantasy of a Transatlantc League
  5. The Parksider

    London in Superleague

    You ranted on from you usual position on the sidelines about how the game should find London a modern ground to grow the club from, despite there being simply no money to do this. You criticised the game from the sidelines big style, then when pulled you backed straight off and said that they wouldn't last a season in Superleague.😧........So why do you want to spend massive slabs of other peoples money when the club are probably only in SL temporarily? They only got in because the championship fought off Lenegan's 10 club SL leaving two places to fill by clubs that have no money. One in London Broncos who exist because Mr. Hughes is still happy to bankroll them at a lowish level which is his business not yours, and seemingly Salford who may not get any more behind the scenes handouts from Koukash Branson was only half interested for his son's sake. Of course he is rich enough to buy or rent a nice stadium in London and fund a large player development programme for the capital, and buy the best players he can. People forget when London were flying high games against Paris, Wigan and Brisbane were 10,000 attendances. The London sporting public knew darn well they were there, it was still a loss maker so Branson left declaring the club as such. Trouble with Fantasy RL is people ignore the reality. Superleague don't want TWP and those silly long haul trips to a country that has rejected RL for a third time as no other clubs have followed TWP. HOWEVER as Danny Lockwood pointed out they do want Argyle's money. They do want his offer to provide a solvent competitive club to make up the 12, they do want to keep TWP's SL money to share between themselves, and they do want the publicity that the press are still swallowing that RL is to explode around the globe with Scotchy your pilot to Perth W.A. If there is a way forward for London it is in Argyle's hands to stop being stubborn and concede there is to be no Transatlantic league. Then they need him to buy into London on a serious level......... Which has BTW already happened but it flew largely under the Radar because he was at the same time extolling the virtues of working class Philadelphia as the next NA stop on the bus to a Transatlantic League and a &Billion dollar TV deal with thousands of young North American RU players turning to league. The Argyle stake in London Skolars was not a full takeover and their current Chairman assured Skolars were not going to Philadelphia, but exactly what Argyle was up to nobody knew or really cared about discussing as they already had TWP, NY and Philadelphia in their fantasy bag - half way to the six required for the fantasy Transatlantic league. It may be as Ngwati and Burroughs are at Skolars?? This is Argyles young player development offering, following his daft Manchester academy stunt to fend of the criticism TWP won't develop players. However that surely clashes with Broncos claim to be the club dealing with London player development. If anyone wants a more realistic dream that could become reality then it's one where globe trotting Argyle eventually (after letting the TWP fans down gently) takes a full stake in London RL and invests heavily to achieve his personal dream of owning a professional club at the top table. He chose the ridiculous Perez plan and it's all a mess and a sham, had he just taken a stake in Skolars in the first place instead this would have given him what he wants (full membership) given him far more grass roots support here than 30 dreamers on a website, and a massive real life boost to the game here.......
  6. We are down to only 10 clubs with adequate private backing and that includes Ian Fulton and Michael Carter. Do you really believe the game can start giving ultimatums to these Gentlemen? Wellsy is right that new grounds at Hull and Warrington were massive successes, but you are wrong to think that Elstone would dare threaten either of Carter or Fulton who both are doing all they can to make the grounds happen. What do you want them to do Harry? Sell their own businesses and add their own personal money to the sum and personally buy us new grounds?? Where would RL be in West Yorkshire if two more clubs lost SL status and their rich owners walked like Beaumont did????. How many many times do you dreamers have to be told. As Mr. Perez says that deal can only be negotiated if there are 6 North American clubs in Superleague. As they don't produce any players then six clubs here have to be relegated to make way and even then as has been said, many many times the Americans would have no interest In Castleford or Huddersfield. The easiest thing would be to stop talking as though £Millions are available. The easiest thing has been done as per Trailfinders. Stop bleating about finding mega £Millions that just aren't there for stadia and just get on with playing the game the most entertaining way we can on the pitch because that is what Elstone is trying to say amidst the usual meaningless grand statements they all come out with. Read these articles by Solly, Elstone. Argylle etc and they are all full of hot air and grand statements that mean nothing. Elstone's bottom line is that if we want to keep or enhance a TV deal that underpins professional RL in this country or shall I say "keeps the game alive" then the coaches and players must put entertainment first. As bad as Odsal was and is Bulls still put 20K crowds in there, so put Bulls back in SL for a boost to fanbases and a boost to TV with Leeds.v.Bradford back on - and we miss that badly. When you can't really do much and are stuck due to the conditions that exist as regards the small RL game here or the virtually non existent game in North America (both locations overshadowed heavily by bigger, richer, more popular and in direct in competition with Rugby League pro sports) these people have no alternative but to woffle on saying all sort of meaningless rubbish. Last week it was Argyle saying nothing much at all across a whole page, and now Elstone. BUT in Elstone's grand woffle the message is still there (albeit badly clouded by guff) that the clubs must put entertaining the TV audiences beyond all else. No TV deal no game. That is what this thread should consider......
  7. The Parksider

    SL could increase to 14 teams in 2021

    Yet again you deliberately make out the criteria for TWP's success is something other than what was stated by Perez himself i.e. the development of NA players (total failure) and a massive NA TV deal (again total failure)... The merchandise sold at TWP merely reduces the massive deficit Argyle runs up trying to run an SL club from 3,000 miles away that has no home grown players and never will, that has no fellow NA clubs following and never will, and as for a massive TV contract that certainly will never happen whilst TWP are merely Leigh reserves. .Anyway it’s time you challenged Argyle over his stake in a London Club. Is he jumping ship? This is a tremendous post. It’s not that it says anything new it’s just how well it’s put. We have had over two years of the Transatlantic fantasy and the message is now getting through, with more people supporting that message that there is no imminent explosion of the game around the globe. I can perfectly accept that “growth” and “investment” is the obvious remedy to decline if you boil business principles down to the lowest common denominators. It’s just that “growth” isn’t putting overseas clubs into SL and booting M62 clubs out. Or close to home it isn’t Featherstone Rovers finally getting their SL chance at the expense of such as Leeds. If “investment” in TWP leads to them replacing Leeds Rhinos next year will this be “Growth”? Not at all if that investment is one man’s personal dream and as a result Leeds go into decline. Any struggling business who wants to survive has to reject aggressive takeovers which is the Perez plan, and has to find a way to shore up the finances and try to retain the skilled staff and the customer base. That clearly starts by retaining as much of the assets, the staff and the customer base you can. So no, TWP cannot ever replace a Leeds, No Leeds cannot be relegated, No the amateur game in Leeds cannot be knocked back by relegation. We cannot afford that luxury. A luxury for all those so called RL fans who were happy to kick Bradford Bulls in the proverbials when they were relegated. I set out how in Lancashire the game has now faded and retracted in terms of any strength or investment to a small triangle that is the 30 mile round trip from Warrington to Wigan to Saints and back to Warrington. If Leeds follow Bradford next year for TWP then what exactly would be the strength of the game in West Yorkshire amongst the remaining clubs? Castleford, Huddersfield and Wakefield would be that joint strength that is all. Imagine that? The distance from Fartown to Wakey to Cas is a mere 24 miles. Out of our 12 clubs Widnes do not have a rich owner and if Koukash fails to bankroll Salford next year that’s it for them both. The 10 clubs Superleague wanted to run to, this coming season, were planned early this year but were blown apart by the Championship owners tail wagging the dog, and the nonsense of P & R by chance (and may I say) Chancers. Our strength is regional (West Yorks, West Lancs, Hull and South west france) and it is a strength based on local tradition. It’s prospects for growth are severely limited outside these places. We have the investors in these places, we have the fans in these places, we have the players in these places. Move the business away from here, and it dies. How well you put the point that you don’t close your four local corner shops who are “just getting by” because you think you can build a chain of international supermarkets instead. That’s what about 30 complete fantasists on here think we can do.......................
  8. The Parksider

    Is RL fading away in Lancashire?

    Well conversely there are people "Desperate for North American clubs to succeed" at any cost. Just like you. In your expansion world there are two issues:- 1. You want North American clubs to be founded funded and grow apace. Who does not want that? 2. You want English clubs to find solutions to their ills and equally grow apace. Who does not want that? You see these two strategies as being separate things and last season when Ryan Burroughs, Quin Ngwati, Joe Eichner, Rhys Jacks and Tom Dempsey were playing for TWP who were apparently committed to growing the player pool with North Americans, having also given a commitment to finding players from Grid-Iron, all seemed well. There was no need to "conflate" the two things. I certainly did not. I called for TWP to continue to introduce North Americans to the game in the championship and build the game until they could field a largely North American team, just like clubs here, are also expected to field a largely English team and Catalans are expected to field a largely French squad. (they arguably just squeak in with this). But what they did was to forget about player development in America (they failed to start the big grid iron development system, and they failed to set up any junior NARL, and they failed to retain their American contingent - they were all booted out) and they just proceeded to take players out of the shrinking player pool here. And so this created an issue whereby TWP started to fight English clubs for the same players, which would, had they managed to ground the ball over the line at least once last sunday, have seriously worsened. Now of course TWP can simply point to Salford or HKR and say "they don't run an academy" but that is because they can't find good enough youngsters to play, there aren't enough. They do run the development foundations to encourage kids into the game though. TWP don't do either, what Argyle does is talk about "Rugby Kids" pretending there is no difference or animosity between RL and RU in North America and that somehow youth development of Rugby Union in Canada is actually development of rugby as a whole. Maybe we should lay claim to the tens of thousands of English kids playing RU here, as part of our grass roots junior development? What every TWP flag bearer does is ignore what they said and what they did. They said they would develop North Americans from the start by converting grid iron players and finding north Americans to play. They abandoned both policies. The first didn't get off the ground at all and the second one was scrapped as they booted out all their North American players. For that deceit they really had to be booted out themselves . Imagine the fury if Catalans didn't play any French players at all as a policy!! But TWP also revealed that the massive alleged NATV deal (pick a one digit sum and add as many noughts as you want) would only come about if (for the trillionth time I have to say this and for the trillionth time it will be ignored on a forum in which people are supposed to exchange views not run for the ignore button) Superleague conceded 5-6 places to American clubs. And so that means as it stands Superleague being removed from Salford/Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Widnes, Huddersfeld and Wakefield. It means well over 100 English players being expected to fly 3,000 miles backwards and forwards every week to play in America when they only took the game up to play for their home town club. It means over 40,000 RL fans having to accept their clubs are now gone as Superleague clubs because Americans have come in. And somehow Dunbar thinks that this is not the reality of what is happening and what is further planned by Argyle and Perez. Now Jason Moore kindly commented on this garbage when he said this was not the way to do it. He said that North America had to build it's own league. As it stands that's the USARL and of course they are just an amateur set up. But it's a league, it's already there and with an alleged string of major investors or investment groups with many many £Millions to pour into these clubs then we can invest in the infrastructure, start professionalising the clubs, start turning American kids to RU from RL and beat the MLR to it. How fantastic would that be and how real that expansion would be if it happened. No doubt Dunbar will continue to shout "Conflation", but I do think he must now look up the word "Substitution" as that is the Perez fantasy plan. In practice the actual plan is talk big and they'll fall for it and allow TWP into SL (one touchdown away from it Sunday)after which nothing else happens. That's all Argyle wants in reality and is totally at odds with Perez's hype about 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague. New York have now been roundly ignored (Wood promised to report on the application at the end of April but could not bring himself to write "Pie in the SKY") and no other American investors have come forward whilst the MLR targets every city Perez mumbles on about, with a recent offer to New York to join MLR if SL do not want them. And they don't. Go back to January and the 10 club SL plan and TWP told you ain't coming in....... Bottom line is we desperately need Argyle HERE. Hopefully we will get him by his part purchase of a London club, whom it was very quickly pointed out by their chairman are staying in London.
  9. The Parksider

    SL could increase to 14 teams in 2021

    This is pure wishful thinking and self interest. Neither Toulouse or Toronto add any value to Superleague as they neither underpin a paying TV deal we can share with them. Perez based TWP's value to Superleague on the TV deal a transatlantic league would allegedly bring, as well as grid iron converts. Superleague has been very clear in recent years overseas clubs need to bring TV money and players into the game. Jouffret of course craves Toulouse in Superleague because they would do so much for his club which he admits. To be fair to the man I would expect him to be going round all the French TV companies and sounding them out about whether a TV deal is on if Toulouse were in Superleague. The SL bosses have already told Toulouse that they need French TV money for more french clubs. No they won't. You and all the dreamers say this because you dream of a world league and the consequent global domination of sport by Rugby league. When Toulouse asked to come in they were told NO, bring players and a TV deal first. When TWP asked to come in they promised a TV deal and players. It is impossible to have a grown up conversation if it is based on fantasy Rugby League. It is impossible to do this if you ignore the facts. An understandable desire to see Rugby League grow and grow and grow makes them think that. He won't be the first to effectively call for a 16 club Superleague will he?? I know that's a bit "deluded" shall we say?? There is a new Player agent on the block. Peter Pan management is now touting 60 raw boned talented Rugby League Players who have honed their skills in the Never-Never Land Superleague. As we have been reminded last January TWP were told they may not be allowed in SL and we were told that SL were wanting a 10 club league. Mr. Jouffret has some sort of amnesia, but again there's no real harm in spouting off at the media, Perez has done this for two years anyway. The reducing quality player pool led to some calls to consider only 10 clubs in Superleague when they made the cut to 12 way back in 2015. Had the meddling Championship clubs not forced SL hands, we could be pretty sure that 10 clubs it would be this coming year. Bottom line has always been the English TV deal is likely to be less money next time, so how on earth do people think the English SL clubs will want to share less money with more overseas clubs who bring no TV deal of their own and no additional players to the player pool. I had hoped Fantasy RL would have stopped dead Sunday night.......Ah well.....
  10. You need to cut out the childish sniping especially when you and Bob8 are always posting stuff like this, to follow your dreamland where Perth and New York are in Superleague. It really is very simple in the real world there is a lack of investors and players - can you not get this? The bulk of the fans and players live in England and France. Can you not understand this. Do you not get that opening clubs in all sorts of places needs investors on the scale of Argyle and he is a one off. If there are these big investors in Copenhagen or New York name them? But you can't can you. Then if we do plan for New York.v.Copenhagen then do tell me where the two 30 man professional squads come from. You two snipe from the comfort of a website in which there is an extraordinary number of dreamers, but it's only about 30 people. In the real world there are over 100K RL fans - go ask them if they think New York.v.Perth is the future? Especially as this garbage means some of their REAL clubs have to make way and face decline? They say talk is cheap don't they, and in League express there is a whole page of Argyle talking in riddles but saying nothing of any substance. It really isn't hard to analyse the problem here. Argyle wants to take the stance "It's my money so I must be allowed to spend it where I want". On here I am berated by Gentleman JohnM whom I have a lot of time for, for not being "positive" and suggesting something that will help the game take off. It's as though discussing the truth is a terrible thing, but going round saying we must open clubs in New York and Copenhagen is a wonderful thing, backslaps all round. You could not make it up but they do. They make it up big time............ Anyway this is what should happen Argyle says he travels all over, Toronto, London, Sydney etc. Argyle has made an investment in the London Skolars (NO dreamers, he is NOT going to ship them to Philadelphia) The games bosses here should ask him to invest in London RL. That can be the stepping stone to join the M62 and the south of France. Imagine big clubs from Leeds and Wigan, down to London and across to Catalan and Toulouse. The dream of a proper Euro league can become a reality if the man just said OK..... Hughes was prepared to work with Lenegan in London so why not Argyle. Argyle can pay for improvements to Ealing to maximise crowds, and if it isn't big enough put the ticket price up and make it the hottest sports ticket in town. Argyle can then do what he boasted he would do in the Sunday Mail which was to "Ring the agents of the best 10 players in Rugby League and Rugby Union" and sign as many as possible up. Failing that just find the best 30 players prepared to play in London. He can also back Skolars to get into the Championship and he can enhance the London RL junior RL set up, and we can look forward to more London Pro-RL players.. London dates back to 1908 when we played tests there, in the 1930's we had THREE professional clubs there, We have played major Internationals and cup finals all down the years there. When RL was at a low ebb the Southern Amateur Rugby League gave a "V" sign to their RU bans and played the game there, Ealing, Hillingdon, Peckham etc. It's a rugby League city. OK there is union but some union clubs folded and others moved out. London can never be a profitable business for a rich owner but hardly any clubs can. Branson and Maranta had to admit that. But at least it's not dead like RL in North America where the RL world cup is dead, and the MLR is trying to kill off what is left by opening clubs in every venue that has ever being mentioned for League. I say "mentioned" and sadly that is all it takes to get the dreamers on here going like when Lenegan mentioned Perth and off Scotchy went..... A fantastic European League is available to us if this stubborn man Argyle will just dump Perez and invest instead in London. That is not a dream, that is a really positive suggestion that can easily work - is that OK for you JohnM????
  11. The Parksider

    What now for Toronto?

    You wrote on another thread:- "With the MPG looming up, this might be a good time to reflect on where we are with expansion of the game, in its widest sense. I’ve jotted down a few thoughts, but any comments or additional or corrected details on any bids would certainly be helpful. This started as just a brief exercise, but I’m amazed that it’s become such a long list and I'm running out of gas". You wrote as though the game was exploding across the Northern Hemisphere with investors just itching to get RL going in places they play at a very low level or simply don't play it at all, so you have a real cheek to criticise me for simply wanting to talk about the game as it is in the real world. You have no evidence that "many RL fans marvelled" at TWP.v. Toronto. I went to see TWP at Halifax and Leeds and there was no "marvelling" everyone knew it was Rowley's old Leigh team. You have no evidence London are an expansion team. We took Tests to London in 1908 and had three London clubs in the league in the 1930's. The latest club is 38 years old and has "contracted" this last few years. Why can't you deal with the reality?? Why can't you understand it's your own tedious repetition of this fantasy world that draws such counter comments? It is quite possible John that the game could end in death here but I very much doubt it as long as we support our game and do not support the idea it should be transferred across to Canada where the game there actually died out twice, in the Early 1960's and early 2000's. This forum is great for talking Rugby League but too many posters take it down the fantasy route. As other posters have said - who sadly do not bother to come on here any more - it's too much fantasy talk - so as an enthusiast for Rugby League of many years I have the right to hold realist viewpoints, and provide some much needed reality in what is becoming a dream world on here. You may be titilated by dreams and fantasies John, but I get my enjoyment from the revival of the Bulls and York, from the professionalisation of the real life English game, and from the massive respect it gets when clubs like Leeds, Catalans, Wigan, Saints Cas & Warrrington show their wares to the Sporting public. We are a small game with a big heart and big respect and I reserve the right to talk us up as such and disagree wholeheartedly with the fantasy stuff without being told by individuals that somehow I don't like the game and more than that told I think it will die. It's quite rude. This is my point exactly. I despair when people come on here and disparage our clubs calling them "small towns people have never heard of" and tell me the future lies in places like New York. I posted an article that was written about the New York bid that really did go to town on what an ultimate ridiculous fantasy that was. But oh no, we have to have New York shoved down our throat every other day, yet I can't talk reality in what John calls "considered" and "valid" ways. Yes it would be lovely if they were to start a club in New York, and New York people came and watched it in their thousands, and New Yorkers started playing it and one day England played the USA etc. etc. etc. But this isn't what we are actually talking about. What people are talking about is shutting down professional clubs here and moving playing rosters to places that don't play Rugby League. Do you and your friends on here Manxman not understand that this is not "expansion" it is "substitution" and that WILL kill the game - so it isn't so much me talking about the game dying John, not at all. It is the likes of Manxman plotting it........ I am talking about people who would kill it by taking it and it's players away from Wigan, Warrington, St, Helens, Leeds, Hull, Bradford etc and transplanting it in Toronto, New York and a series of places that have not even made a bid, probably because no investor in Hamilton Canada has any interest. In fact I don't know of any American investors.... I know the points I make are serious, well thought out, realistic and true because nobody ever answers them with any valid counter points, instead I'm called all sorts of names, and the focus is swung quickly away from truth's like it doesn't matter that 9,266 people watched the MPG in Toronto. It matters that that enthusiasm leads to them actually playing the game themselves there and that in doing so they generate revenue from it to share here, and develop players to enable true expansion to happen.Even Mr. Perez acknowledges that! I don't expect any grown up considered answer to this point, probably more abuse? Probably more "I've put Parky on ignore" for that's what you have to do to live in a fantasy world comfortably....
  12. The Parksider

    What now for Toronto?

    No they have not done anything right. For the umpteenth time both the SL bosses and Eric Perez knew what was “right” for TWP to earn a place in Superleague. It was “right” to develop Canadian players ASAP, and it was “right” to find a TV contract at a high enough level of payment from a North American TV company for TWP and fellow SL clubs to share. Neither of those “Right things” for their entry to SL have been delivered. It’s as simple as that… I’m afraid it is your blind enthusiasm for a seismic change in RL from being a parochial northern English game to a Transatlantic wide game that is the “tendency” here. That is daydreaming not some great vision on your behalf. In the end two full time Championship clubs who have easily crushed part time clubs with little money have played off for an SL place and the reality is neither were likely to have done anything in SL other than get relegated again….. I noticed in the sunday paper before the game Mr. Argyle waxing lyrical about his plans once SL was secured. He stated that his intention was to chase the world’s best Rugby players which the interviewer suggested were Sam Burgess, Sonny Bill Williamson and Owen Farrell. The interviewer noted Argyle did not disagree with this suggestion, and Argyle went on to say that his club would of course be speaking to the agents of the top ten players in each code accordingly. After this talk turned to all the NA clubs to follow TWP with New York, Boston and Philadelphia named outright. Of course any idea TWP may field a star studded International Union/League combo of the world’s best players may be hampered by a Salary cap, if this was actually serious. But of course it’s not and Messrs Perez and Argyle are having a laugh, and you two are falling for it.
  13. The Parksider

    London in Superleague

    Superleague earlier this year looked to reduce the major part of the game to 10 clubs in an SL1 and 10 clubs in an SL2. At that time neither London Broncos were a consideration for SL1 as they sadly offer nothing much anymore, and Toronto Wolfpack were not a consideration because they neither offered any additions to the player pool nor a paying TV contract clubs could share with them which were Superleagues two criteria for overseas clubs to join Superleague, which SL bosses outlined to Toulouse a few years back. Whatever crowds TWP get are irrelevant - what they pay to Argyle merely helps him make up the losses TWP run up, they don't come here and spend their money so SL bosses don't give a fig if 100K watch TWP if they get no return from that. The championship clubs were the ones to reject the 2x10 Superleague plan and to achieve some sort of peace between the warring chairmen Superleague conceded a 12 club SL would continue. However (again) they don't give a fig who wins this MPG game as they never wanted it anyway, and neither clubs that played that irrelevant game today offer any real threat to the clubs they do want as they are both of no value to Superleague.. Once again London Broncos may have been promoted, but SL bosses do not particularly care. Did you not notice the £500K the SL clubs gave to Leigh last year and the £500K they will give to Widnes this year to try to get them back in Superleague?. SL bosses see the future as shoring up the traditional game. AGAIN they see no mileage in an isolated club in North America where there are no north american investors, where there are no quality RL players, where the RL world cup 2025 appears to have already failed and where Union is the dominant rugby game. As you have spotted they see no mileage in London Broncos, and when they passed London Broncos as being "acceptable" for Superleague they blew away any idea of "minimum standards" existing anymore. Mr. Hughes will be respected not expected to waste more of his families declining nestegg. All the gentleman has to do is see the season out and hopefully for SL be the club a resurgent Widnes replace, or Bradford Bulls or York under Mr. Flatman replace. This isn't sport, it's hard nosed business and politics. For Ant below who denies this, when there is conflict then there has to be compromise you are right Ant that "mergers, feeder teams and no p&r." may well be what SL ultimately want to impose, but the voting system and politics prevents this, so compromise is the only way.....
  14. The Parksider

    Transatlantic League just days away??

    The massive travel distances are a big negative Elstone said so, their abandonment of home grown players is a big negative, and shunting Widnes out of SL on Sunday will be their hat trick of negatives. So again you and all others stop dodging the question posting drivel. TWP are running to a business plan and it's absurd to state nothing is foreseeable, all business plans are about what is intended to happen in the future. So set it out for me how TWP will benefit the game here if you dare, but you Scotchy and the rest of them duck it because you know darn well I'm right. If you can’t pick me up on the points I make I will take that as you are in agreement with me. Check the debate two years ago. The “Projections into the future” came from Eric Perez and not myself so you cannot even get the basic facts straight. Your one of the most prolific daydreamers on here, and your naïve if you think David Argyle and Eric Perez just happened to wander by, and didn’t spot the opportunity to blag their way into a failing Superleague. They both will have known when SL bosses turned up at Toulouse a few years back and outlined that their criteria for an overseas club in SL (as reported in League Express and as I noted on here) was more quality players for the player pool and more money to share from TV Contracts. So you just think it was a “co-incidence” that:- 1. Eric Perez sat with Dave Woods on TV and promised great North American quality athletes would come into the game pretty much from day one via his imaginary conversion course? 2. Perez predicted the mother of all TV deals via a Transatlantic League. 3. And Perez struck when the World Cup looked like going to North America 2025. The whole thing was clearly calculated, and they also struck at a time when the game was in turmoil and divided. They got in on Wood’s say so not Lenegans. Nobody more than Perez could know how this could not work. He was the man who tried to revive RL in Canada for a second time and got absolutely nowhere, whilst North American Rugby Union continued to build, are rejoicing at the failure of the RL World cup there, and are now going professional and will open a pro-RU club in every North American city that Perez tries to open up a pro-RL club. But they will not try this again. Perez has delivered all Argyle wanted. Perez got you Dunbar, Bob8, Johnoco, Scotchy Dave T and all the rest of the daydreamers all naively excited about this brave new transatlantic league and over two years on not a single NA club are to be seen following. Not one North American investor has ever been named or heard of. That's the reality, you've all been conned and can't man up and admit it, and you all will just hide behind the idea it's yet to kick off. Absurd apologistic nonsense......
  15. The Parksider

    Transatlantic League just days away??

    Not once no. Having watched Widnes collapse for want of decent players, Leeds being described as being their worst team ever last Friday and Toronto "not much better" it's clear why Lenegan tried to cut SL to 10 clubs. We only have the quality for a small league, and for two years this Elephant in the room has been roundly ignored so that 20-30 people on here who think they are a majority voice can play fantasy RL. More total ignorance of the facts, over 120 years we have tried to take the game to London right from the 1908 internationals through to three London clubs in the 1930's. South Shields and Coventry were tried, many Welsh clubs have entered the league over the years, we took it to Newcastle in the 1930's, Cumbria in the 1940's and in recent times into Nottinghamshire but I won't waste my time with the full much longer list, suffice to say your ignorant of the facts and should know better. I would suggest that we have a section of the forum just for discussing Conferences and Transatlantic leagues and myself and other realists who want to talk about what the game is about, not people's fantasies, can stay off that and just stick to the general forum where we can discuss reality which is the games struggle to survive. In what way? Time for you to explain how this would actually work? You've sniped at me several times for setting out why this won't work and cannot work in detail. If you think it will work have the bottle to set out HOW you think it will work? Let's not. There is one Aussie investor, one Canadian spin doctor and Ricky Wilby. That's it. As Mr. Moore said to grow League in North America it meant professionalising the USARL, taking the biggest games posible to the USA/Canada over the next few years and then showcasing the game at the World Cup in North America 2025. Have you not noticed that the real business plan for NA expansion has now totally collapsed? Come into SL and ruin the English clubs they relegate, they will try to ship half the player pool over there, academies will close at relegated clubs, and English RL fans will turn their backs on the game both in terms of spectating and being active in the community game. Widnes are the first casualty. Thank goodness they will be the last. TWP gain entry to SL because the dumb English championship clubs forced a 12 club superleague when Lenegan wanted 10 clubs because Widnes and Salford were fundamentally going down the tubes financially. Mike Stephenson once said on SKY that the worst thing an SL club could do is not spend the full cap because SL had to be as competitive and as even as possible for the TV audiences. Argyle will NOW be tolerated as he is a "rich owner" which is the only plus TWP offer. In January they weren't going to let him in, but the situation has worsened...