Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Trojan

Kear sees the light on franchising

215 posts in this topic

RL has been packaged for TV not for fans.

As rLrLrL says fans watch on TV in massive numbers and pay to watch on TV and that money goes to Superleague clubs.

I suppose you mean "REAL" fans. If you do the only reality professional sport recognises is money and wether you pay it to them via SKY subscriptions or via the turnstyles it don't matter.

I watch loads of games live and even more on TV and pay for the lot. Very nice "package" that is too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and jut how many SL clubs are in profit? How many are in debt up to their necks?

Well yes that's the point isn't it.

If we have around half a dozen clubs who can find an exciting team, compete for the trophies, spend full cap and pull in the fans that's where all the excitement will be and clearly is.

If the skint bottom half of the table can't compete and has no brass then of course that's where the doldrums come from. It seems weird to say that the bottom half of SL is boring because there's no relegation battle. the facts as Padge keeps repeating them is in the relegation years you could pick out the odd match here and there that was a relegation "winner takes all" in which several thousand extra fans were attracted to these games. However for the vast majority of "relegation" games the crowds simply did not turn up.

Of course the follow on from the supposedly well attended and attractive relegation tussel may be the promotion of two new clubs to SL - say at the moment Featherstone and Leigh.

Then off we go again. Two more clubs destined for small crowds, low income and struggle such that there may not even be any relegation battle if they never get off the bottom of the table and go straight back down again.

Don't forget SL set up P & R such that by the time you got promoted they'd cleaned up on all the best pro players leaving the promoted side as relegation fodder from the start. I know HKR bucked the trend, but that was because Hudgell had

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.

15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.

England went out of the soccer world cup because there's around a dozen countries who currently produce better quality players than us. How this links in any way to GB's losses to Australia at RL is beyond me??

15/20 years ago we were regularly beaten by Australia, sometimes heavily. Today the same thing happens. That is because they produce far more quality players than us to pick from, and can pick those in form.

Where promotion and relegation to superleague in any way comes into this scenario you really must tell us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.

If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.

If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost

how come that didn't happen when fev were battling against relegation in 83, on top of which they won the cup: average attendance 2,600

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15/20 years ago we were regularly beaten by Australia, sometimes heavily.

No you're wrong there Parky. In 1990 we came within a disputed referee's decsion of beating them in a series. We gave a creditable performance in the World Cup Final in 1992 and also in the Ashes series that year - also in the subsequent 1994 tour and 1995 World Cup. It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I worry that we are making the experience of going the rugby as unexciting as possible and rather than having games that are 'must see' there are far more that are 'might see'. This is all clouded by attendances still being relatively high but I think that this doesn't tell the whole story.

If you look at Castlefords last 3 attendances then i think it shows Licencing is costing the game millions per season. 4200 v Catalans relegation battle add 2k. Salford away 3000 relegation at stake add 2k. Bradford away 5600 relegation at stake add 2k. Take this over a full season with all the effected clubs and millions are being lost

I think that the attendances you quote may also have been affected by other factors, midweek game, and a game against a club whose own fanbase is dropping sadly like a stone, notwithstanding a sense of aceptance at Castleford that they don't seem to have the resources anymore to compete with the "big boys", and that includes players rumoured to have already done deals at bigger clubs as they play for you.

It's not relegation battles you need my friend (which are statistically matches with below average attendance - of that there is no doubt, Padge has his "facts") you need what Wigan, Fartown, Crusaders, Saints, Wire, Salford, Quins, Crusaders, Widnes, and HKR have and that is a rich backer, or you need to have a fanbase like Hull or Leeds.

Low crowds come more from having clubs in SL who can't compete. I see no low crowds in the NRL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No you're wrong there Parky. In 1990 we came within a disputed referee's decsion of beating them in a series. We gave a creditable performance in the World Cup Final in 1992 and also in the Ashes series that year - also in the subsequent 1994 tour and 1995 World Cup. It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.

I was there when Meninga obstructed someone getting to Stewart at Old Trafford Tro, but what exactly am I wrong about. We have lost to the Aussies regularly since we won the world cup in 1972.

Maybe we didn't lose as often and as by as much, but then we had legends like Hanley, Schoey and Gregory at half back, we could find British wingers, and play full backs in form like Hampson. We had pack giants like Harrison

Skerret, Betts, and Platt and our teams were well balanced. Today we have to really push it to scrape up 13 in form quality players.

The demise of Great Britain is about the demise in numbers of international quality british players. Superlague today offers six figure salaries for such players to play our game and get to the top. The incentives are there.

The kids sadly haven't come.

What earthly link is there to promotion and relegation????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It seems to have killed it as an international sport in the UK. England's performance in the current contest can only be described as abject. The Premier League is effectively an exclusive club that has had billions lavished on it. The perfomance in South Africa is what this has produced. Surely we don't want to go further down this route.

15/20 years ago we looked to have the beating of Australia within our reach. But after 15 years of SL we seem further away than ever. Will the lack of competition for a SL place improve or detract from what for me is the holy grail of any sport - a successful international side? Plus of course the added benefit in the profile of such a sport in the UK. And of course what this thread started to be about the excitement that pulls the fans in.

The NRL is franchised.

The USA came first in England's group. Any idea how P&R works for Major League Soccer?

England are World Champions in Twenty20 and yet no county has ever been relegated from what this season is called the Friends Provident t20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's since then that the game has been declining internationally as far as England are concerned.

If we could have kept it together for ten more minutes England would probably be the current Four Nations champions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As rLrLrL says fans watch on TV in massive numbers and pay to watch on TV and that money goes to Superleague clubs.

I suppose you mean "REAL" fans. If you do the only reality professional sport recognises is money and wether you pay it to them via SKY subscriptions or via the turnstyles it don't matter.

I watch loads of games live and even more on TV and pay for the lot. Very nice "package" that is too.

"RL has been packaged for TV fans not for attending fans"

Both yourself and rLrLrL could have simply agreed with me.

And to make my point explicit I agree with the sentiment of the thread that there are a lot of "pointless" games for club fans (is there are need for points?) and with that comes a real lack of atmosphere. It may look OK on T.V but the passion for the live event is dying off. I go to enough games to "feel" that.

One word of warning regarding what a fan might be. I wouldn't pay to watch Wigan, Widnes, or York by choice. Put it on TV and I probably would.

Edited by Ackroman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we could have kept it together for ten more minutes England would probably be the current Four Nations champions.

No we fell apart after an hour. They destroyed us in the last twenty - I was there. It's the best England/GB performance I've seen since the mid nineties. As for their comp being franchised - so what? if that's how the Aussies like their sport ok, most of us in this country don't like our sport in this way - we like winners and for there to be a winner there has to be a loser. The complaint is that the excitement has gone from our comp. due to franchising. So what have the benefits been so far? - Because I'm b*ggered if I can see any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"RL has been packaged for TV fans not for attending fans"

Both yourself and rLrLrL could have simply agreed with me.

And to make my point explicit I agree with the sentiment of the thread that there are a lot of "pointless" games for club fans (is there are need for points?) and with that comes a real lack of atmosphere. It may look OK on T.V but the passion for the live event is dying off. I go to enough games to "feel" that.

One word of warning regarding what a fan might be. I wouldn't pay to watch Wigan, Widnes, or York by choice. Put it on TV and I probably would.

OK sorry, I agree with you. But as for pointless games even if we had P & R and let's say featherstone went up this year and Catalans went out then we have two likely scenarios.

1. A disaster for the development of professional and international RL in France

2. A featherstone club needing to build a professional side when all the best players have been signed up and without a big enough budget to do it anyway.

Then what would P & R bring us??

Featherstone struggling to pick up points and looking certain to go down whilst the half dozen clubs above them go on to play their meaningless games they play now.

You won't get a relegation battle if the clubs who come up cannot compete, and when we left P & R it was the case that promoted clubs were regularly disadvantaged by the SL clubs as a means of ensuring they had a fall guy other than themselves.

Remember the year leigh came up - that will be the norm. I know HKR broke the trend but again they broke it with

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Remember the year leigh came up - that will be the norm. I know HKR broke the trend but again they broke it with

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also remember Wakefield coming up in 1998. How many times have they been relegated since? There have been several who didn't come straight back down having been promoted to SL, Parky.

Hull, Huddersfield, Hull KR, Cas., Salford

Widnes were only relegated because of the rule allowing Catalans to stay up, they didn't finish bottom.

Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?

Edited by Trojan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?

Excellent analogy that Trojan. I like it. Wakefield have enjoyed 12 straight years in SL and I'd love to know what their averages were compared to Fev's immediately prior to SL. If they can do it I'm pretty sure Rovers and others could too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?

well it didn't work for fev in 83

all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well it didn't work for fev in 83

all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600

Yeah, we know. That was 27 years since,

Edited by Terry Mullaney

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also remember Wakefield coming up in 1998. How many times have they been relegated since? There have been several who didn't come straight back down having been promoted to SL, Parky.

Come on Terry It was mostly SL sides yo-yoing up and down like Salford, Cas and huddersfield. Small clubs like Halifax, Leigh, Workington and Oldham have been in there and have dropped out and now we see things a bit more settled. If Widnes replace such as Cas then we will be even more nearer all the big (money) clubs in and just the little clubs left over in the NL's.

The gap is too big between NL and SL for any meaningful promotion and relegation. HKR bucked the trend with

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well it didn't work for fev in 83

all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600

What was the average of the whole RL at the time?

Was it half what it is now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, we know. That was 27 years since,

so relegation battles and winning the cup weren't supposed to have any bearing on attendences then?

When did this phenomenon kick in then?

the season Rovers played in the NL1 grand final and wakefield were admitted to SL:

Rovers average attendance was: 1,865.

Wakefield's was 1,931.

the season prior to SL

Rovers average was 4,030, wakefield's was 3,233.

IMHO not statistically significant.

other than for a city like wakefield with trinity being it's main sports club, they suck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What was the average of the whole RL at the time?

Was it half what it is now?

Yes MD, what were Leeds, Saints, Bradford getting through the gates back then. It's all relative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you only have to look at Leigh this season to see that the tension is still there. Knocked out of o e tournament to gain a licence application, and facing a tough battle to get into the Grand Final too. Toulouse are up against it too, and Featherstone aren't certs but are giving themselves a great chance. Meanwhile Cas and Wakey know qualifying or missing out on the playoffs could be the difference between Super League survival and finding themselves in the Championship in. 2012.

If anything every game for three seasons matters a great deal, as does everything else considered. Fans and clubs aren't used to that yet - but at the next round of licenses I'd like to see some real reflection on key moments in clubs fortunes on the pitch over the last 3 seasons, and off it to explain why decisions are being made. Then maybe fans and clubs alike will know they are being scrutinised constantly and every game matters for the clubs future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Widnes had dropped off completely in performance, Finishing bottom for the 2 seasons after ticking that licence bid box, crowds dropping to below 1000, and every other failure you can think of that will be assessed, they wouldn't stand a chance in getting a licence. If however they had dominated the Championship winning back to back titles with thriving youngster and crowds above 6k, with everything else in place they couldn't fail to get a licence.

So everything has mattered, and does matter, and as Widnes have not done the second example above, Widnes fans should be nervous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Widnes had dropped off completely in performance, Finishing bottom for the 2 seasons after ticking that licence bid box, crowds dropping to below 1000, and every other failure you can think of that will be assessed, they wouldn't stand a chance in getting a licence. If however they had dominated the Championship winning back to back titles with thriving youngster and crowds above 6k, with everything else in place they couldn't fail to get a licence.

So everything has mattered, and does matter, and as Widnes have not done the second example above, Widnes fans should be nervous.

But what are you trying to entice fans to games with? The same old, same old. The fans that are going are not interested and think the games lack excitement, hardly a way to get new people to go.

We shouldn't be nervous unless we're screwed. It's massively unrealistic to expect Widnes to get that sized crowds in a league that has seen it's average drop when we are already the big fish in a small pond. Even if our crowds have dropped we're still streets ahead of anybody else.

Widnes fans are waiting for Super League, I know because I'm one of them. If we don't get it next time, that'll be it for Widnes. We're not interested in this League, without P and R it's no more prestigious than non-League football. Like I said, the product on it's own is not enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



Rugby League World - June 2017

League Express - Mon 17th July 2017