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ParisSurtout

Melbourne's second tier talent is now available for Super League

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Right....

If you look at the bottom of the table sides there is a much better spread of young talent rather than imports than there was and that was what franchising was there to help as well as get stadiums sorted and get youth academies sorted etc etc it was meant to do many things but this one change of sh*t imports for good imports is not a stick to beat franchising with..

Right I think thats all off my chest

Not too sure where franchising is the devil here RP? The salary cap is the method of preventing dominance, but it can't achieve full parity between clubs if they are not on a par themselves.

If a club does not have the finances to pay full cap then they simply will not start off with the same value of playing squad. Of course one good coach may make more of his poor hand than a bad coach, but SL is pretty much ranked in order of ability to spend full cap.

If a club does not have a vibrant junior set up with kids coming through then they also miss out on having loyal, local rising stars performing well in their team accepting less money than established stars who are no better performers having seen their best years?. What is the value the current crop of Syoung aints players bring to the team against their current salaries?

If a club offers on the field success to a top top import, then when the money offers are pretty much in the same "ball park" that import is likely to choose the winning sides - much less hard work and no great expectations, than for a one off star signing expected to carry an average side.

If you are a Wigan, Leeds or Saints because you have concentrated hard on the youth set up (for years), because you have the set up to generate full cap, and because you have had success as a result and attracted the best imports, you may well dominate the honours. It may well be deserved.

Many current SL clubs are years behind the top three, but most of them have the wherewithall to catch up. For some like Hull Wire and Fartown that may take a few more years yet, for others like Quins, Les Cats and Crusaders it may be a couple of decades. For anyone short on the salary cap it's goodnight.

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Not too sure where franchising is the devil here RP? The salary cap is the method of preventing dominance, but it can't achieve full parity between clubs if they are not on a par themselves.

If a club does not have the finances to pay full cap then they simply will not start off with the same value of playing squad. Of course one good coach may make more of his poor hand than a bad coach, but SL is pretty much ranked in order of ability to spend full cap.

If a club does not have a vibrant junior set up with kids coming through then they also miss out on having loyal, local rising stars performing well in their team accepting less money than established stars who are no better performers having seen their best years?. What is the value the current crop of Syoung aints players bring to the team against their current salaries?

If a club offers on the field success to a top top import, then when the money offers are pretty much in the same "ball park" that import is likely to choose the winning sides - much less hard work and no great expectations, than for a one off star signing expected to carry an average side.

If you are a Wigan, Leeds or Saints because you have concentrated hard on the youth set up (for years), because you have the set up to generate full cap, and because you have had success as a result and attracted the best imports, you may well dominate the honours. It may well be deserved.

Many current SL clubs are years behind the top three, but most of them have the wherewithall to catch up. For some like Hull Wire and Fartown that may take a few more years yet, for others like Quins, Les Cats and Crusaders it may be a couple of decades. For anyone short on the salary cap it's goodnight.

parky i know all that.. i was saying it was NOT a stick to beat franchising with..

Jimmy B Post number 5 on this topic was saying that franchising was supposed to stop this but obviously it was just BS from the RFL and they just wanted to get rid of P&R etc etc.. i was pointing out that franchising wasnot there to stop good imports coming along..

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parky i know all that.. i was saying it was NOT a stick to beat franchising with..

Jimmy B Post number 5 on this topic was saying that franchising was supposed to stop this but obviously it was just BS from the RFL and they just wanted to get rid of P&R etc etc.. i was pointing out that franchising wasnot there to stop good imports coming along..

As regards more opportunity for developing younger home grown players, surley it is the number of imports playing in our game not the quality.

Replacing, in your words, Sh*t Aussies with beter quality Aussies makes not one iota of dufference as regards first team opportunity for a young player.

I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.

Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ? - Or are you sayng let those clubs at the top of the pyramid who can afford the Aussies have them, and leave the development of future GB internnationals to those who may not be so fortunate financially in the lower half of SL ?

Edited by Jimmy B

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A few things on Wigan's position:

1 - players out are likely to be Phelps, Feca, Bailey, Pryce, Piggy, Deacon and possibly Carmont;

2 - Fielden will be on a lot less money;

3 - so, if Wigan sign Lima, Finch and Hoffman (and possibly Quinn), with Hock to come back later in the year they will have fewer overseas players but much better quality ones;

4 - we already have a lot of home grown players, who have indeed forced Bailey, Phelps and Feca into the reserves. We have plenty more where coming through;

5 - Wigan have a long way to go before they can be considered the best team in SL. We may be top of the league, but we are out of the Cup and have not won a semi in 5 attempts. So, even if we become stronger, that may well only bring us up to Leeds and Saints level.

In short, we may well get the best of the Storm's released players, as we have the money (through over spending on Fielden and Feca for example) and the connections. It might make us the strongest team, but might not, and that is certainly far from a foregone conclusion. We are demonstrably heavily reliant on our own player production and show no sign of stopping there.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As regards more opportunity for developing younger home grown players, surley it is the number of imports playing in our game not the quality.

Replacing, in your words, Sh*t Aussies with beter quality Aussies makes not one iota of dufference as regards first team opportunity for a young player.

I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.

Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ? - Or are you sayng let those clubs at the top of the pyramid who can afford the Aussies have them, and leave the development of future GB internnationals to those who may not be so fortunate financially in the lower half of SL ?

no i;m not saying that otherwise quite frankly that is what i would have said..

and i shall repeat (although its very boring) Franchising was brought in for many many reasons.. one was to enable teams to not be affraid to try out the youngsters with fear of relegation.. this is working.. teams at the bottom used to bring in journeymen aussies to try and save them and if they were promoted would do the same to try and stave of relegation the next year.. withfranchising you can finnish bottom every year and not get relegated if you are playing a good bunch of yongsters, your youth strucutre is good and the stadium is good..

the quota system is being reduced but this canot be done in one fell swoop it has to be reduced gradually due to teams haveing contractual agreements in place and it would cost them a fortune to rip them up and send their aussies home.

the point i was making is that i would rather see clubs who are bringing in imports (which they are allowed to do) within their quota bring in quality imports rather than bringing in dross to make up the numbers.. dross that could easily be british dross..

by having the better quality quota players it means our youngsters are learning from some of hte best in the business like hoffman, finch, quinn etc.. and so when those players come through they will be better for it.. there are quite a few youngsters coming thorugh the top teams and they are looking useful, gb internationals in fact.. remember in the past some of our players would have gone over to the NRL in the offseason and learn there.. they dont have that chnce now..

We need foreign players in the game.. i say need i am sure we could do without but the game may not be so good but we certainly dont NEED to be purely british in players, aslong as the foreign players coming into the game add to the teams and to the competition and these players will.. much more so than the journeymen brought over to save clubs from instant relegation.. that is what franchising was going to hlep (again this takes time as contracts take time to run out) but with the help of the salary cap and the Quota.. Fracnchising CANNOT solve everything on its own.

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Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

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Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

i woudl say yes becuase although wigan are being made strnger by these players being brought in (arguably) it is not at the expense of someone else..

however, this sort of movement is acceptable as its a brit to a brit..

LMS going to Saints would be great for the quins academy in a way as it shows how good he has become to go to someone like Saints.. i just hope if he did go he would get game time that would helpo him progress and that quins can bring someone else through to replace him.

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no i;m not saying that otherwise quite frankly that is what i would have said..

and i shall repeat (although its very boring) Franchising was brought in for many many reasons.. one was to enable teams to not be affraid to try out the youngsters with fear of relegation.. this is working.. teams at the bottom used to bring in journeymen aussies to try and save them and if they were promoted would do the same to try and stave of relegation the next year.. withfranchising you can finnish bottom every year and not get relegated if you are playing a good bunch of yongsters, your youth strucutre is good and the stadium is good..

the quota system is being reduced but this canot be done in one fell swoop it has to be reduced gradually due to teams haveing contractual agreements in place and it would cost them a fortune to rip them up and send their aussies home.

the point i was making is that i would rather see clubs who are bringing in imports (which they are allowed to do) within their quota bring in quality imports rather than bringing in dross to make up the numbers.. dross that could easily be british dross..

by having the better quality quota players it means our youngsters are learning from some of hte best in the business like hoffman, finch, quinn etc.. and so when those players come through they will be better for it.. there are quite a few youngsters coming thorugh the top teams and they are looking useful, gb internationals in fact.. remember in the past some of our players would have gone over to the NRL in the offseason and learn there.. they dont have that chnce now..

We need foreign players in the game.. i say need i am sure we could do without but the game may not be so good but we certainly dont NEED to be purely british in players, aslong as the foreign players coming into the game add to the teams and to the competition and these players will.. much more so than the journeymen brought over to save clubs from instant relegation.. that is what franchising was going to hlep (again this takes time as contracts take time to run out) but with the help of the salary cap and the Quota.. Fracnchising CANNOT solve everything on its own.

What is the present quota level and what is the programme for it's reduction ?

As overseas contracts expire surely they should not be replced by new overseas players - if we are serious at reducing imports.

I do agree that overseas players can be an asset but I would limit it to one per club - providing that player is a current international.

We have seen so much money thrown at countless Aussies in the twilight of their careers, over here for a working holiday to boost their retirement fund.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 02:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What is the present quota level and what is the programme for it's reduction ?

As overseas contracts expire surely they should not be replced by new overseas players - if we are serious at reducing imports.

I do agree that overseas players can be an asset but I would limit it to one per club - providing that player is a current international.

We have seen so much money thrown at countless Aussies in the twilight of their careers, over here for a working holiday to boost their retirement fund.

last sentence i think we would all agree on and which is why it is changing..

cant remember the exact numbers but it is coming down by 1-2 a year.. its being done by the having to have x federation trained players, y youth academy etc..

problem is you cannot do the "once their contract is over you cant replace them" becuase that damages potentially a club (and certainly means they are playing to a different set of rules) that uses short term contracts because they do not want to be left with dud players for too long.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ?

We are reducing the number of imports, but the best imports will still sign for the top clubs..........

Only a draft will spead imports evenly.

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Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

Smaller clubs have always, in my lifetime of watching the game (over 50 years), been financially bullied by the more wealthy into parting with star players. Its tough.

My own club can provide an extensive list of players, often home grown, who have been develped, some to GB level, and then taken from us in their prime. Often we had to do it to survive and fair enough we got a sometimes bumper transfer fee, but I have no sympathy for any club who loose players to bigger clubs. Cas. took one of our star players not to long ago and they would do so to anyother club if it suited and they had the money.

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We are reducing the number of imports, but the best imports will still sign for the top clubs..........

Only a draft will spead imports evenly.

So can you tell me what the present quota of imports is - and what is the programme set down for reducing it ?

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So can you tell me what the present quota of imports is - and what is the programme set down for reducing it ?

Sorry Jim - not easily off the top of my head.

It's a season by season reduction of about one a year and as RP London says (I sometimes listen to you ;) )

it's a gredual weaning of the clubs off imports and a time lapse enabling clubs to improve youth set ups.

Jim - I'm not sure wealthier clubs take less wealthy clubs players. These are all professionals free to sign wherever they want.

The reality is it's the amateur clubs who find and develop the players and the semi pro and pro game "take" them from their clubs, with little recompense.

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Sorry Jim - not easily off the top of my head.

It's a season by season reduction of about one a year and as RP London says (I sometimes listen to you ;) )

it's a gredual weaning of the clubs off imports and a time lapse enabling clubs to improve youth set ups.

Jim - I'm not sure wealthier clubs take less wealthy clubs players. These are all professionals free to sign wherever they want.

The reality is it's the amateur clubs who find and develop the players and the semi pro and pro game "take" them from their clubs, with little recompense.

1) No and neither can anyone else - the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten.

3) Lets not put a ploy on words - of course players can sign for anyone they want, but if they are lured from club A to club B with the promise of a pay day that club A cannot match, then club B has, O.K, "taken" them away from club B. I have never blamed a player for following the bigger money - far from it, but I was merely pointing out that it has happened forever in my time of watching RL.

4) Yes in this modern age Junior clubs do nurture the yougsters from a very early age with a disgusting amount of recompense, but in the days of not so long ago such junior set ups did not exist on the scale they do now. For instance in my area and in my teenage years any one who had ambitions of playing RL at a professional level went training initially with the under 17's - progressing to under 19's. My club signed many players from this age group not amatuer RL. So in those days you could say it was the schools who first developed the young Rugby players with no recompense at all.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So can you tell me what the present quota of imports is - and what is the programme set down for reducing it ?

its reducing by one next year from this years 6 to 5. and thats where the reduction stops for next few years. There'll be a further reduction as the kolpak players reclassified as fed trained ( which are boosting a fair few clubs over this years quota off 6) gradually retire as the exemption they are using isnt available to players coming to SL from 2008 onwards.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
4) Yes in this modern age Junior clubs do nurture the yougsters from a very early age with a disgusting amount of recompense, but in the days of not so long ago such junior set ups did not exist on the scale they do now. For instance in my area and in my teenage years any one who had ambitions of playing RL at a professional level went training initially with the under 17's - progressing to under 19's. My club signed many players from this age group not amatuer RL. So in those days you could say it was the schools who first developed the young Rugby players with no recompense at all.

At Parkside the local Hunslet School RL fed the best into the U17 juniors who then became the U19 intermediates and on to the "A" team and senior side!!! I remember those days Jim.

Up north Leeds loads of schools did not play RL!! Every time I hear schools in non RL areas taking the game up it reet gladdens mi heart...........

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 14 2010, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1) No and neither can anyone else - the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten.

3) Lets not put a ploy on words - of course players can sign for anyone they want, but if they are lured from club A to club B with the promise of a pay day that club A cannot match, then club B has, O.K, "taken" them away from club B. I have never blamed a player for following the bigger money - far from it, but I was merely pointing out that it has happened forever in my time of watching RL.

4) Yes in this modern age Junior clubs do nurture the yougsters from a very early age with a disgusting amount of recompense, but in the days of not so long ago such junior set ups did not exist on the scale they do now. For instance in my area and in my teenage years any one who had ambitions of playing RL at a professional level went training initially with the under 17's - progressing to under 19's. My club signed many players from this age group not amatuer RL. So in those days you could say it was the schools who first developed the young Rugby players with no recompense at all.

1.. its not BS its just that we havent got th info on the top of our heads becuase its not that important a peice of knowledge for our day to day lives.. there are many rules and regulations of the sweet manufacturing industry i could quote you as i need to but sadly RL laws on quotas i dont know.. i just know the basic idea that it is reducing..

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a quick google while i have 2 minutes came up with this

Dave Hadfields column in 2007.. says about the reduction over the years

an explanation on the wigan fas forum showing that the "non federation trained" alowance is being reduced towards 2011

not a big fan of wikipedia for facts but it says it here too about the reductions

Rugby League forums has it too.. i think lifted from wiki though

relague.com article about Bradford and Simon Finnegan,. reading through it it explains about dwain chabers would need to be top 8 non federation trained this year but next yar would need to be top 6 as they reduce the number of non federation trained players you can have

seriously a very quick google shows it isnt BS it is happening.. as much as we talk ruibbish on here sometimes we do know what we are talking about a lot of the time (more than hapy to admit when we are wrong aswell fr the most part or when unsure) but just dont hold all the exact facts at the forefront of our brain becuas ethere are more important things there..

(you could have googled this yourself to be fair to try and prove it is BS rather than just saying "it bs becuase you dont know the exact details"!)

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a quick google while i have 2 minutes came up with this

Dave Hadfields column in 2007.. says about the reduction over the years

an explanation on the wigan fas forum showing that the "non federation trained" alowance is being reduced towards 2011

not a big fan of wikipedia for facts but it says it here too about the reductions

Rugby League forums has it too.. i think lifted from wiki though

relague.com article about Bradford and Simon Finnegan,. reading through it it explains about dwain chabers would need to be top 8 non federation trained this year but next yar would need to be top 6 as they reduce the number of non federation trained players you can have

seriously a very quick google shows it isnt BS it is happening.. as much as we talk ruibbish on here sometimes we do know what we are talking about a lot of the time (more than hapy to admit when we are wrong aswell fr the most part or when unsure) but just dont hold all the exact facts at the forefront of our brain becuas ethere are more important things there..

(you could have googled this yourself to be fair to try and prove it is BS rather than just saying "it bs becuase you dont know the exact details"!)

Have another read at my original post.

My original post ASKED if it was BS ! I did not say it was BS because I don't know the exact details.

Please don't mis quote me.

Edited by Jimmy B

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 15 2010, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have another read at my original post.

My original post ASKED if it was BS ! I did not say it was BS because I don't know the exact details.

Please don't mis quote me.

i paraphrased, apologies

exact quote "No and neither can anyone else - the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten." just becuase we couldnt put the exact figures down you decided or sorry "the cynic in" you decided it was BS to keep with your agenda of franchising not working..

all you had to do was do a little tiny bit of research yourself to silence the critic... touch too easy though.. best just to jump to conclusions.

Edited by RP London

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i paraphrased, apologies

exact quote "No and neither can anyone else - the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten." just becuase we couldnt put the exact figures down you decided or sorry "the cynic in" you decided it was BS to keep with your agenda of franchising not working..

all you had to do was do a little tiny bit of research yourself to silence the critic... touch too easy though.. best just to jump to conclusions.

Who says I have got an agenda of Franchising not working ? Please don't make assumptions.

Rather than do a "tiny bit of research" myself I preferred to ask on this thread - anything wrong with that ?

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 15 2010, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who says I have got an agenda of Franchising not working ? Please don't make assumptions.

Rather than do a "tiny bit of research" myself I preferred to ask on this thread - anything wrong with that ?

yes its lazy..

you asked about 3 of us if we knew.. we all said it was but we couldnt remember which.. so becuase we couldnt remember you said.. "the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten" rather than seeing if you could find out for yourself.. that is laziness but "the cycnic in" you outweighed the logic of double checking before jumping to a conclusion just becuase some people couldnt remember the exact details.

Do you think franchising is working?

(aplogies i know this is a tad off topic)

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yes its lazy..

you asked about 3 of us if we knew.. we all said it was but we couldnt remember which.. so becuase we couldnt remember you said.. "the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten" rather than seeing if you could find out for yourself.. that is laziness but "the cycnic in" you outweighed the logic of double checking before jumping to a conclusion just becuase some people couldnt remember the exact details.

Do you think franchising is working?

(aplogies i know this is a tad off topic)

Look mate I would have thought someone on this forum would have known - nothing to do with lazyness. If it upsets you that I ask a question on here (it is a fans forum after all) don't respond. What I choose to conclude is my prerogative.

You tell me weather it is working you seem to be well informed.

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QUOTE (Jimmy B @ Jul 15 2010, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look mate I would have thought someone on this forum would have known - nothing to do with lazyness. If it upsets you that I ask a question on here (it is a fans forum after all) don't respond. What I choose to conclude is my prerogative.

You tell me weather it is working you seem to be well informed.

it is your perogative but you were wrong because although we all said we couldnt remember the exact details but that it was happening, you disbelieved this even though we answered your question you then didnt believe us.. why ask the question if your going ignore the answer? you either need to believe people or if you do not then research to prove them wrong.

i have answered you each time you have asked a question (including the below.. ) so it quite obviously doesnt "upset" me that is quite rediculous.. what annoys me is that you disbelieve the answer given to you, a which point why ask even though the same answer comes from different people.

i shall answer your straight forward question

yes i do

i have answered the questions you have asked of me.. i even googled to help you even though i knew in my own mind it was not BS.. please do me the courtesy of answering my question.. Do you think it is working?

Edited by RP London

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