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nec

15 years on

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Initially, several mergers between existing clubs were proposed:

1. Castleford, Wakefield Trinity and Featherstone Rovers would form Calder

2. Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers would form Hull"

3. Whitehaven, Workington Town, Barrow and Carlisle would form Cumbria

4. Warrington and Widnes were to form Cheshire

5. Salford and Oldham were to form Manchester

6. Sheffield and Doncaster were to form South Yorkshire

They were to be included with the following stand-alone clubs: St Helens, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford Northern, Halifax, London, Paris and Toulouse.

Which of these would have been better than the current situation for clubs in that area and which will eventually happen anyway?

In my opinion 3, 5 and 6 are arguably better than what we have now in those areas

In my opinion 1, a version of 3 and 6 may well eventually happen to get a club into SL from those areas as Wakey & Cas are stymied by a lack of decent stadium and the Marras go ahead without the other 2 listed (who ironically merged 11 years ago).

The ludicrous petition and associated threads made me curious.

I would suggest the winners from this NOT happening as planned have been Wire Hull FC & HKR, all of which have gone on to be successful on their own.

Just to add, Halifax & Toulouse may well get back to where they were envisaged in 1995 in the next round of licences

Edited by nec

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Initially, several mergers between existing clubs were proposed:

1. Castleford, Wakefield Trinity and Featherstone Rovers would form Calder

2. Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers would form Hull"

3. Whitehaven, Workington Town, Barrow and Carlisle would form Cumbria

4. Warrington and Widnes were to form Cheshire

5. Salford and Oldham were to form Manchester

6. Sheffield and Doncaster were to form South Yorkshire

They were to be included with the following stand-alone clubs: St Helens, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford Northern, Halifax, London, Paris and Toulouse.

Which of these would have been better than the current situation for clubs in that area and which will eventually happen anyway?

In my opinion 3, 5 and 6 are arguably better than what we have now in those areas

In my opinion 1, a version of 3 and 6 may well eventually happen to get a club into SL from those areas as Wakey & Cas are stymied by a lack of decent stadium and the Marras go ahead without the other 2 listed (who ironically merged 11 years ago).

The ludicrous petition and associated threads made me curious.

I would suggest the winners from this NOT happening as planned have been Wire Hull FC & HKR, all of which have gone on to be successful on their own.

They have yet to ever work in rugby league and I doubt they ever will. Inevitably, you get a weaker partner who is phased out. If the two teams have a long history of 100 years they have identities which are too valuable and too strong to remove from the hearts of their fans completely. All you do is anger people and create one club which together is weaker than two seperate teams are apart. I think super league needs to be more realistic about what a club needs to be and not sacrifice long term entities for short term gains.

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doesnt help that many RL clubs are just towns.. and any mergers or creation of new clubs would result in alienating fans or risk the support base being spread too thin. tough one.. i think the next round of franchises will force some clubs and fans to make some tough decisions.

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Where are Huddersfield in your plan?

It's not his plan, it was the original RFL one. Huddersfield weren't a big club at the time and were intended to survive as a standalone club in the First Division.

The worst idea there was including Barrow in with the other Cumbrian sides, though at the time they were on their last legs (before 'merging' with Carlisle) so I suppose made some sense, but geographically would fail

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Initially, several mergers between existing clubs were proposed:

1. Castleford, Wakefield Trinity and Featherstone Rovers would form Calder

2. Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers would form Hull"

3. Whitehaven, Workington Town, Barrow and Carlisle would form Cumbria

4. Warrington and Widnes were to form Cheshire

5. Salford and Oldham were to form Manchester

6. Sheffield and Doncaster were to form South Yorkshire

They were to be included with the following stand-alone clubs: St Helens, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford Northern, Halifax, London, Paris and Toulouse.

Which of these would have been better than the current situation for clubs in that area and which will eventually happen anyway?

In my opinion 3, 5 and 6 are arguably better than what we have now in those areas

In my opinion 1, a version of 3 and 6 may well eventually happen to get a club into SL from those areas as Wakey & Cas are stymied by a lack of decent stadium and the Marras go ahead without the other 2 listed (who ironically merged 11 years ago).

The ludicrous petition and associated threads made me curious.

I would suggest the winners from this NOT happening as planned have been Wire Hull FC & HKR, all of which have gone on to be successful on their own.

Just to add, Halifax & Toulouse may well get back to where they were envisaged in 1995 in the next round of licences

But who will pay through the gate to watch them? The antipathy between Cas and Fev is well known, as is that in Hull.

But a similar feeling exists between Whitehaven and Workington - I used to work with a lad from Whitehaven - he had no time at all for the "jameaters" I used to tease him by calling him one - he was not amused.

You could merge Sheffield and Doncaster without much trouble - but I bet you still couldn't come up with SL sized crowds.

I don't think there's much love lost between Wire and Widnes either.

The only way these could have been made to work is that if one or other of the mergees went out of existence then perhaps there might be some mileage in it but I doubt it.

I used to know a Bradford City fan, his wife and her family had supported Park Avenue but even twenty years after they dropped out the league there was no way they'd be seen dead at Valley Parade.

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I was and am pro merger.

Much was said at the time, and reiterated now of the junior partner being swallowed up, reality is all parties would have been swallowed up.

Mergers are nothing new to business, RL is a business!

I will wager now that had mergers taken place, parochial issues wouldnt be spoke about 15 years later.

Allround result is, Oldham, Fev, Whitehaven, Workington, Carlilse, Widnes, Sheffield, Doncaster are watching an inferior product or are dead (Carlilse), of course many out there watching the inferior stuff will claim to be happy with what they have ................... therein the problem!

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Believed at the time it was dreamt up on the back of a fag packet.

The way it panned out has given me little cause to reconsider.

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They have yet to ever work in rugby league and I doubt they ever will. Inevitably, you get a weaker partner who is phased out. If the two teams have a long history of 100 years they have identities which are too valuable and too strong to remove from the hearts of their fans completely. All you do is anger people and create one club which together is weaker than two seperate teams are apart. I think super league needs to be more realistic about what a club needs to be and not sacrifice long term entities for short term gains.

So the Balmain/ Western Suburbs merger didnt work did it? The Wests Tigers are one of the best teams in the NRL, great fan base and won the premiership in '05. I think the Cumbrian team and SOuth Yorkshire team would be a success in SL.

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poss new merger St.Widnes :P:lol:

===================

the Saints new ground to be the biggest Tesco in the world.... :wacko: ........sssshhhh its a secret. :wub:

sponsor are carlsberg. :O:O:O

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Mergers are nothing new to business, RL is a business!

I will wager now that had mergers taken place, parochial issues wouldnt be spoke about 15 years later.

Couldn't disagree more.

Come on, Rugby League is far more than a business! Anyway, what business would contemplate alienating its hardcore customers?

Mergers would inevitably lead to "parochial" fans being lost to the game. Over time some of the tribal allegiance may fade and a few may filter back to watch the merged entity (especially if they are sucessful) but can RL afford to lose any fans at all?

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But who will pay through the gate to watch them? The antipathy between Cas and Fev is well known, as is that in Hull.

But a similar feeling exists between Whitehaven and Workington - I used to work with a lad from Whitehaven - he had no time at all for the "jameaters" I used to tease him by calling him one - he was not amused.

You could merge Sheffield and Doncaster without much trouble - but I bet you still couldn't come up with SL sized crowds.

I don't think there's much love lost between Wire and Widnes either.

The only way these could have been made to work is that if one or other of the mergees went out of existence then perhaps there might be some mileage in it but I doubt it.

I used to know a Bradford City fan, his wife and her family had supported Park Avenue but even twenty years after they dropped out the league there was no way they'd be seen dead at Valley Parade.

Trojan, sadly it is the pathetic childish attitude of your friend and others who spend more time calling each other "jameaters" without knowing who is or isn't a "jameater" that has and still is holding back rugby league at a professional level in west Cumbria.

I still don't know how people can assume that one club will be weaker than two mediocre struggling clubs!!! In west Cumbria more people have actually walked away from the game altogether than go to watch both Town and Haven in total. But still we listen to the "over my dead body" people.

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So the Balmain/ Western Suburbs merger didnt work did it? The Wests Tigers are one of the best teams in the NRL, great fan base and won the premiership in '05. I think the Cumbrian team and SOuth Yorkshire team would be a success in SL.

I've got some shocking news for you: This isn't Australia. We do things differently here. The fans are different, the sporting climate is different, and the sooner the people in charge of this sport realise that fact this sport can get over its fascination with beating the aussies at a game they are much more interested in.

Mergers have never ever worked in this country. They've tried and failed. We are dicing with the health of our game in two towns where it currently exists to a decent degree for a short term gain, and there wouldnt be this ridiculous scramble to ensure top flight rugby were there a fair and equitable way of achieving top flight status and a chance for every team to manage it.

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Interestingly most of the clubs who it was suggested merge are still struggling.

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Interestingly most of the clubs who it was suggested merge are still struggling.

Interestingly, so are most of those it was suggested should stand alone.

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Interestingly, so are most of those it was suggested should stand alone.

Yes true, because the other ones are holding them back.

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I've got some shocking news for you: This isn't Australia. We do things differently here. The fans are different, the sporting climate is different, and the sooner the people in charge of this sport realise that fact this sport can get over its fascination with beating the aussies at a game they are much more interested in.

Mergers have never ever worked in this country. They've tried and failed. We are dicing with the health of our game in two towns where it currently exists to a decent degree for a short term gain, and there wouldnt be this ridiculous scramble to ensure top flight rugby were there a fair and equitable way of achieving top flight status and a chance for every team to manage it.

Computer's just crashed & I've lost the links but you can google them yourself

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Rushden & Diamonds

Dagenham & Redbridge

in case you think this is just a modern phenomenon

Carlisle United

Newcastle united

Welsh regional rugby union

Leeds Carnegie

London Irish

I think it does happen here

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Computer's just crashed & I've lost the links but you can google them yourself

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Rushden & Diamonds

Dagenham & Redbridge

in case you think this is just a modern phenomenon

Carlisle United

Newcastle united

Welsh regional rugby union

Leeds Carnegie

London Irish

I think it does happen here

Wigan Wasps & Highfield

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Computer's just crashed & I've lost the links but you can google them yourself

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Rushden & Diamonds

Dagenham & Redbridge

in case you think this is just a modern phenomenon

Carlisle United

Newcastle united

Welsh regional rugby union

Leeds Carnegie

London Irish

I think it does happen here

I'm confused. Which of those are top flight english rugby league clubs?

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Trojan, sadly it is the pathetic childish attitude of your friend and others who spend more time calling each other "jameaters" without knowing who is or isn't a "jameater" that has and still is holding back rugby league at a professional level in west Cumbria.

I still don't know how people can assume that one club will be weaker than two mediocre struggling clubs!!! In west Cumbria more people have actually walked away from the game altogether than go to watch both Town and Haven in total. But still we listen to the "over my dead body" people.

Well perhaps you can explain it to the residents of Workington and Whitehaven and persuade them to pay out their money to watch a merged team.

When you've done that you can have a go at Hull & Hull Kr, and Cas and Fev. If you succeed, I recommend that you offer your services to the Palestians and Israelis.

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Computer's just crashed & I've lost the links but you can google them yourself

Inverness Caledonian Thistle

Rushden & Diamonds

Dagenham & Redbridge

in case you think this is just a modern phenomenon

Carlisle United

Newcastle united

Welsh regional rugby union

Leeds Carnegie

London Irish

I think it does happen here

I don't know about the others, but Newcastle merely changed their name from East End to Newcastle United, after West End, who played at St. James' Park, folded.

Anyway, mergers aren't the right thing to do, but I think that we have to accept that in the longer term, natural selection will leave one of each of the pre-merged teams at a higher level than the others.

I think the first place we'll see this will be with Wakey, Cas and Fev - I feel that SL can only support one of these in the long run and eventually (if the game grows sufficiently) that club will go on to represent the region.

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Well perhaps you can explain it to the residents of Workington and Whitehaven and persuade them to pay out their money to watch a merged team.

Well they don't bloody well want to watch two unmerged teams do they.

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Couldn't disagree more.

Come on, Rugby League is far more than a business! Anyway, what business would contemplate alienating its hardcore customers?

Mergers would inevitably lead to "parochial" fans being lost to the game. Over time some of the tribal allegiance may fade and a few may filter back to watch the merged entity (especially if they are sucessful) but can RL afford to lose any fans at all?

Its your right to disagree but of course that doesnt make you right!

No, its a business first and foremost, tragedy being that the fact it is a business it will only ocurr to some folk when a club side withers and dies. Take a look at Oldham, a population of 100,000+ and a hot bed of RL, sadly its attendences average c 1000!

You claim "mergers would lead inevitably to parochial fans" ....................... sheesh man, its because of a narrow minded and parochial ignorant approach that we have a load of clubs struggling and limping from one unpaid tax bill to the next.

A successful side playing the like of Wigan, Warrington, St Helens, Leeds etc week in week out will attract fans, a side playing Blackpool, Swinton, Hunslet and Doncaster will attract diddly squat apart from its hardcore support which amounts 0.9% of its population!

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I've got some shocking news for you: This isn't Australia. We do things differently here. The fans are different, the sporting climate is different, and the sooner the people in charge of this sport realise that fact this sport can get over its fascination with beating the aussies at a game they are much more interested in.

Mergers have never ever worked in this country. They've tried and failed. We are dicing with the health of our game in two towns where it currently exists to a decent degree for a short term gain, and there wouldnt be this ridiculous scramble to ensure top flight rugby were there a fair and equitable way of achieving top flight status and a chance for every team to manage it.

Dead right there and top marks for observation, it aint Australia and yep, we do do things different here, a great pity we dont do things better!

Maybe the mergers you claim have never worked in this country have failed because they havent been done properly ................... but I have to say there are a vast amount of mergers in industry that have worked!

This lets not bother attitude is one reason the UK is swimming in a cesspit of its own making and we have bred a generation of weak willed jelly fish who ....................... cant be bothered "coz its too hard" all blessed with an ethos of "it probably wont work anyway"!

Edited by Sleeper

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Dead right there and top marks for observation, it aint Australia and yep, we do do things different here, a great pity we dont do things better!

Maybe the mergers you claim have never worked in this country have failed because they havent been done properly ................... but I have to say there are a vast amount of mergers in industry that have worked!

This lets not bother attitude is one reason the UK is swimming in a cesspit of its own making and we have bred a generation of weak willed jelly fish who ....................... cant be bothered "coz its too hard" all blessed with an ethos of "it probably wont work anyway"!

I'm choosing to ignore your patronising negative attitude and address your post without resorting in kind.

The trouble with this argument is, rugby league isn't strictly a business. People who say it is are missing a whole lot about it. If clubs were strictly a business, no one in their right mind would watch a losing team. If Coca Cola starts to taste awful and gives people illness the customers wont still buy it out of loyalty, they will switch to pepsi. Yet I've seen fans go to watch a Halifax team in super league that didn't have a hope of winning a game all season. You can't treat the fans as customers, they are different. There is an emotional attachment and a sense of community spirit you don't get from true businesses. Sure, they run accounts, and have overheads, but the customers in this case are not the type who will simply wander from product to product when it suits them. Their loyalty is a strength and a weakness. It means you can't simply bank on them going elsewhere if you mess them around and merge and subdue their club. It's more than just a brand to them. But it also means some of them will carry on supporting through thick and thin no matter what is going on with the business side.

Merge Wakey and Cas and a number will refuse to go because it wont be the same and the new entity will represent something else they are not accustomed to or emotionally attached to. You have to accept that no matter what you think of these people. You have to hope that in the long term, you can gain lost ground and overtake that considerably otherwise you are sacrificing two working clubs just to risk one which may work slightly better.

Your last paragraph is of supreme irrelevance to this argument so I wont bother replying to it because you shouldn't have bothered posting it.

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