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Mumby Magic

Time for a third Welsh Team?

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With Crusaders acheiving good crowds for a first season in virgin territory and South Wales Scorpions in a league position higher than expected supported by bigger crowds than so called "traditional " clubs isn't it a good time to implement a third Welsh club within our ranks? With Thomas looking to be the first of many Welsh RU players ready to step over the great divide and the Welsh RU not in the grand position it once was i feel we should strike whilst the iron is hot.

Some of the doom-mongers will point towards Crusaders last two attendances but there average this season will be better than Salfords and Harlequins at least.

Others will state that it's not easy to set up a Club from scratch.

1) Do they have to? Are the seeds not in place at a NRC club to make the step up? (Weren't Crusaders grown from the seeds of Bridgend?

2) South Wales Scorpions have managed it haven't they?

The game in Wales needs to be hit head on with great momentum else we'll be left with yet another era of half hearted efforts.

Viva Wales

B)

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wasnt there talk of 2 before the scorpions started up.. was just a timing to get them both up and running pre the season starting.. so they concentrated on one.. or am i way off here and it was just a board rumour?

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Two areas which spring to mind with no fully pro RU:

- Bridgend/Pontypridd

- Merthyr and the Valleys

A third team would be superb and would help reduce costs

hopefully we can move to a regionalised third tier

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I see the merits of three teams but will be happy if there are still two in existence come the start of next year.

How much of the TV money were Crusaders advanced? They touched on it during Sundays Rugby coverage on GMR, saying they had had an advance payment but I didn't hear them going into detail.

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wasnt there talk of 2 before the scorpions started up.. was just a timing to get them both up and running pre the season starting.. so they concentrated on one.. or am i way off here and it was just a board rumour?

There were 2 proposals yes, but I don't think there was ever the player base for 2 sides, so more a case of either or. The other proposal were to be Bridgend based. Blackwood Bulldogs considered it at one point but they can't even fulfil their fixtures as it is

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1) Do they have to? Are the seeds not in place at a NRC club to make the step up? (Weren't Crusaders grown from the seeds of Bridgend?

You mean Rugby League Conference?

No, most of the games are now getting called off presumably because some players would rather go to RU pre-season 6-8 weeks before the season starts than play rugby league. Maybe between all the clubs you could get something but I'd rather start off with a Scorpions reserve team before we look at another pro side

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With Crusaders acheiving good crowds for a first season in virgin territory and South Wales Scorpions in a league position higher than expected supported by bigger crowds than so called "traditional " clubs isn't it a good time to implement a third Welsh club within our ranks? With Thomas looking to be the first of many Welsh RU players ready to step over the great divide and the Welsh RU not in the grand position it once was i feel we should strike whilst the iron is hot.

Some of the doom-mongers will point towards Crusaders last two attendances but there average this season will be better than Salfords and Harlequins at least.

Others will state that it's not easy to set up a Club from scratch.

1) Do they have to? Are the seeds not in place at a NRC club to make the step up? (Weren't Crusaders grown from the seeds of Bridgend?

2) South Wales Scorpions have managed it haven't they?

The game in Wales needs to be hit head on with great momentum else we'll be left with yet another era of half hearted efforts.

Viva Wales

B)

Think its a great idea, who's paying for it?

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They could play at Newtown

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&rl...ved=0CB8Q8gEwAA

Then we wouldn't need to wonder why their crowds were cr4p - we'd know.

The crowds of Celtic Crusaders and South Wales Scorpions both hold up favourably compared to many heartlands Championship clubs. A few more succesful Welsh sides at Championship level could strengthen the leagues considerably.

I believe there have been proposals for a team in Bridgend and Carmarthenshire. Three sides in the Championship leagues averaging 700+ and hopefully one in Superleague averaging 5,000 plus should get us decentish coverage in Wales, even if its just articles in local newspapers a lot more people will be aware that RL is active down there.

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Sadly crowd figures are not very good, certainly at Wrexham, if the results they have reached this season had been in S Wales then the crowds would have been doubled. Un fortunately around Bridgend there is a feeling of being let down following the move to N Wales, and I regularly meet former loyal supporters who now don't go to RL games.

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Sadly crowd figures are not very good, certainly at Wrexham, if the results they have reached this season had been in S Wales then the crowds would have been doubled. Un fortunately around Bridgend there is a feeling of being let down following the move to N Wales, and I regularly meet former loyal supporters who now don't go to RL games.

Based on??? O yes the no previous seasons there! :huh:

The latter part of yourpost is one of the reasons why we should try our best to strike before the bridges are well and truly burnt down.

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Think its a great idea, who's paying for it?

Hoenst question who, if anyone is paying for South Wales Scorpions. How have they done it. Crusaders are now competeing in SL and hasn't there backer been long gone?

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Hoenst question who, if anyone is paying for South Wales Scorpions. How have they done it. Crusaders are now competeing in SL and hasn't there backer been long gone?

I have no idea - but someone will be.

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The crowds of Celtic Crusaders and South Wales Scorpions both hold up favourably compared to many heartlands Championship clubs. A few more succesful Welsh sides at Championship level could strengthen the leagues considerably.

I believe there have been proposals for a team in Bridgend and Carmarthenshire. Three sides in the Championship leagues averaging 700+ and hopefully one in Superleague averaging 5,000 plus should get us decentish coverage in Wales, even if its just articles in local newspapers a lot more people will be aware that RL is active down there.

The Carmarthenshire proposal is a suggestion for CPC Bears who are one of the weaker Premier Division sides, and the theory was based on them having 4 feeder sides this year. All 4 turned out to be fictitious, but they managed to get something by effectively a forced merger of all 4 sides. Don't think they'll get anywhere, maybe we could get 2 good proper amateur clubs in Wales feeding into the Scorpions (one to be Bridgend or Pontypridd based, the other could be somewhere Monmouthshire/Gwent I guess) playing in a better competition, with the Welsh Conference below that as a way of introducing RU players into the game

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Based on??? O yes the no previous seasons there! :huh:

You do realise that first seasons in a new location are almost certainly better crowd wise than a second season? Plus lack of history won't pay the bills.

I hope Crusaders survive in Wrexham, but I'm not as sure they will as I was a couple of months ago

Edited by bowes

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You do realise that first seasons in a new location are almost certainly better crowd wise than a second season? Plus lack of history won't pay the bills.

I do but that's not always the case. In addition the crowds could have been alot worse.

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Hoenst question who, if anyone is paying for South Wales Scorpions. How have they done it. Crusaders are now competeing in SL and hasn't there backer been long gone?

Scorpions are financed by Phil Davies, a local businessman, who also is on the board of Port Talbot FC. However the club isn't far off being self-financing.

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Sadly crowd figures are not very good, certainly at Wrexham, if the results they have reached this season had been in S Wales then the crowds would have been doubled. Un fortunately around Bridgend there is a feeling of being let down following the move to N Wales, and I regularly meet former loyal supporters who now don't go to RL games.

Which is a shame but the good thing is that a lot from Bridgend are still going to Crusaders, Scorpions or both. Some may feel let down but those are the people who didn't see the bigger picture - the crowds weren't coming to Bridgend and the club was suffering. The move to Wrexham not only saved the club but opened up a gap for a new one which has done a lot in the space of a few months in developing new Welsh born players. The academy sides are still being run from South Wales and they are producing improving talent every week as proved by the win at Hull FC by the under 18s this week. There was an under 16 side again and under 15 for the first time. The scholarship sides are still running too.

By not going to watch rugby league any more, especially Wales, they are the ones who are missing out. New fans have been recruited in both north and south Wales and hopefully the old ones, the real loyal ones, will eventually come back, maybe for Wales internationals in October.

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Scorpions are financed by Phil Davies, a local businessman, who also is on the board of Port Talbot FC. However the club isn't far off being self-financing.

Could that be repeated elsewhere in (south) Wales, in your opinion? Creating sustainable C1 sides is a bit like the search for the holy grail, and could lead to widespread expansion throughout Britain.

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I think a welsh side in RLC National would be the next logical step they could then apply to C1 if/when Scorps gain promotion to Championship, success of Dragonhearts and the appearance of SW Thunder playing friendlies last winter show that there are boys who would choose RL over RU in south wales and also that there are boys of the ability to compete at that level.

The obvious choice would be Gwent due to it being an hour nearer the border than some alternatives, the support Cru got there last year and the density of conference clubs there.

Also think a CRu 20s in SL reserves and a new RLC club with 18s in NYL aswellas a Scorpion team in NYL would be brilliant and secure a production line of sustainable talent.

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I think a welsh side in RLC National would be the next logical step they could then apply to C1 if/when Scorps gain promotion to Championship, success of Dragonhearts and the appearance of SW Thunder playing friendlies last winter show that there are boys who would choose RL over RU in south wales and also that there are boys of the ability to compete at that level.

The obvious choice would be Gwent due to it being an hour nearer the border than some alternatives, the support Cru got there last year and the density of conference clubs there.

Also think a CRu 20s in SL reserves and a new RLC club with 18s in NYL aswellas a Scorpion team in NYL would be brilliant and secure a production line of sustainable talent.

Perhaps when there's a RLCN South that would be a good place to start? The RLCN won't survive the NCL switch to summer under the current format IMO. Also the southern teams (Hemel aside- they could go NCL or something) can't sustain trips up north every other weekend so there needs to be something above the local leagues for these teams that's not fully national

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I think a welsh side in RLC National would be the next logical step they could then apply to C1 if/when Scorps gain promotion to Championship, success of Dragonhearts and the appearance of SW Thunder playing friendlies last winter show that there are boys who would choose RL over RU in south wales and also that there are boys of the ability to compete at that level.

The obvious choice would be Gwent due to it being an hour nearer the border than some alternatives, the support Cru got there last year and the density of conference clubs there.

Also think a CRu 20s in SL reserves and a new RLC club with 18s in NYL aswellas a Scorpion team in NYL would be brilliant and secure a production line of sustainable talent.

I dont see a major problem with two welsh clubs in Ch1 infact i think it would be a great thing with the derby etc..

not sure RLCN is the next logical step or that Ch1 is the logical step to help the growth of the game with exposure and derbys etc

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The RLCN is an odd competiton dominated by a Bramley team who I'm sure could easily manage in CC1. Hemel are the only non-northern team , so I imagine the financial aspect for them must be huge. The problem for them is finding a suitable level of competition but in the south.

If any new Welsh team wanted to start as a semi-pro outfit, CC1 is the only way to go. If nothing else they'd have some local competition. But I think it would be best for the RFL to let the situation in Wales settle for a few years to try and get some stability, and then maybe look for new sides.

Also, does anyone think it would be better for the Scorpions, and Crusaders for that matter, to mention their locality in the club name - Wrexham Crusaders and Neath Scorpions - or does it not matter?

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Its a nice idea and I hope it a few more years it could easily become reality, i just think we need to build the exposure of the game on a local level and keep developing the playing base particularly in the North , theres plenty of talent out west in the Llanelli area playing Union right now who might be tempted to play League given the opportunity that arises from what Ive seen as well.

I think the future at the moment is to take it slowly and give it sometime as we know what happens when you build up too quickly without establishing solid foundations. Two professional clubs is roughly where the WRL wanted to be now wasnt it Ian? With the Scorpions taking much of the promising talent from the Welsh Conference particularly Valley Cougars and Blackwood who made the 3rd round of the Challenge Cup this year shows theres talent out there, i'd be worried having another CH1 side would spread our playing and financial resources too thinly at the moment. If we can get more conference clubs , we now have two Welsh Summer Leagues and 10 clubs follwoing the creation of Dyffryn Devils a few weeks in, seems to have made a fairly conpetitive competition, we'll see what standard there is sunday before the Scorpions match. Still matches get forfeited due to lack of numbers by some of the weaker clubs , I was going to watch Cardiff v Blackwood other week but it was called off as Blackwood were short, they and the Cougars have had to totally rebuild this year.

If there was to be a new professional side then I would have thought it would have to be here in the capital where the money is. A Cardiff Conference National side would be a good start, a local consortium like the Scorps could work to support that, its only one level up from what the Demons play at now,I'd like to think it would get the necessary support, though I think the best playing base is in the Rhondda Valleys such as the Cougars at the moment so if they could get the support maybe they could step up. Im very interested in seeing how Merthyr Tydfil Wildcats go on from here

As for naming the professional clubs Wrexham Crusaders and Neath Scorpions , I know it would alienate the fans of South Wales not from the town thats part of the appeal, with Neath theres already NeathPT Steelers. Wrexham ? can't say for sure.

Edited by cardifcrusaderrob

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