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Wellsy4HullFC

National Stadium for Rugby League

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With England looking to get the FIFA World Cup for 2018, and a redeveloped Elland Road to be one of these stadiums, would it not possibly be a good idea to try and latch onto this development? From what I gather, the stadium needs more funders for its expansion.

The RFL have had some good success at Elland Road (despite it being a dump at the moment). It's right in the middle of the heartlands. If you keep the two major finals (Challenge Cup Final and Grand Final) where they are, we could use the New Elland Road as a base for international games, World Club Challenges, maybe even have the Challenge Cup games there as Magic Weekend-style rounds.

I think RL would benefit from a base for its major events. The RFL could offer season tickets for their events there which could boost attendances for our major games all-round. Would only be worth doing though if we could get a certain amount of events there per year, and so far I can only think of:

World Club Challenge

Mid-Season Test

Challenge Cup 5th Round (MM-style 8 games in two days)

Challenge Cup QF (4 games in two days)

Challenge Cup SF (Double Header)

Championship Finals Day

3-4 End of Season Tests

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With England looking to get the FIFA World Cup for 2018, and a redeveloped Elland Road to be one of these stadiums, would it not possibly be a good idea to try and latch onto this development? From what I gather, the stadium needs more funders for its expansion.

The RFL have had some good success at Elland Road (despite it being a dump at the moment). It's right in the middle of the heartlands. If you keep the two major finals (Challenge Cup Final and Grand Final) where they are, we could use the New Elland Road as a base for international games, World Club Challenges, maybe even have the Challenge Cup games there as Magic Weekend-style rounds.

I think RL would benefit from a base for its major events. The RFL could offer season tickets for their events there which could boost attendances for our major games all-round. Would only be worth doing though if we could get a certain amount of events there per year, and so far I can only think of:

World Club Challenge

Mid-Season Test

Challenge Cup 5th Round (MM-style 8 games in two days)

Challenge Cup QF (4 games in two days)

Challenge Cup SF (Double Header)

Championship Finals Day

3-4 End of Season Tests

Odsal FTW

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Wouldn't they have to rip out all the seating & add at least 2500 more seats to each of the 4 stands to make it a decent stadium? If the RFL decided to help fund the redevelopment would it just be Leeds United & the RFL who would fund it or would Leeds City Council also help out?

Edited by HappyDave

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Wouldn't they have to rip out all the seating & add at least 5000 more seats to each of the 4 stands to make it a decent stadium? If the RFL decided to help fund the redevelopment would it just be Leeds United & the RFL who would fund it or would Leeds City Council also help out?

Leeds City Council are the ones looking for funding apparently. Part of their bid to be a host city. They are the ones that will receive economic boosts from hosting the games, so they will want to make sure it's possible and secure funding.

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Ah! Cool. By the sounds of it the RFL should look into it as Elland Road isn't currently good enough for big RL games like the 4 Nations Final. Although in my opinion the RFL should be looking at the likes of the City of Manchester Stadium & the Stadium of Light for the RLWC 2013 Semi-Finals & obviously the Final should be somewhere like Wembley or if not then Old Trafford or the Emirites, as I'm guessing RL fans and the RFU would be to petty to accept/have it at Twickenham.

Edited by HappyDave

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With England looking to get the FIFA World Cup for 2018, and a redeveloped Elland Road to be one of these stadiums, would it not possibly be a good idea to try and latch onto this development? From what I gather, the stadium needs more funders for its expansion.

The RFL have had some good success at Elland Road (despite it being a dump at the moment). It's right in the middle of the heartlands. If you keep the two major finals (Challenge Cup Final and Grand Final) where they are, we could use the New Elland Road as a base for international games, World Club Challenges, maybe even have the Challenge Cup games there as Magic Weekend-style rounds.

I think RL would benefit from a base for its major events. The RFL could offer season tickets for their events there which could boost attendances for our major games all-round. Would only be worth doing though if we could get a certain amount of events there per year, and so far I can only think of:

World Club Challenge

Mid-Season Test

Challenge Cup 5th Round (MM-style 8 games in two days)

Challenge Cup QF (4 games in two days)

Challenge Cup SF (Double Header)

Championship Finals Day

3-4 End of Season Tests

A few things wrong with this idea IMO.

It wouldn't ever be a true National Rugby League Stadium. It'd always just be Elland Road, home of Leeds Utd Football Club, where the RFL occasionally plays matches. Which is what it is now. What benefit would the RFL possibly derive from such an investment? It'd be cheaper just to hire the place out when they need it. Which in my view, should be never anyway.

The idea of confining major RL internationals to Leeds depresses me enormously. It's a recipe for ensuring RL disappears completely off the national radar. We used to play internationals at Wembley and make a song and dance about them. The sooner we get back to that, the better.

The WCC has done ok crowdwise at Elland Road, but that's when Leeds have been playing. One day, it might be another team, from another city.

It would be perverse for the game to have a 'National Stadium' of its own but continue to play the two biggest games of the season elsewhere. Similarly, it would be a travesty to play the Challenge Cup final anywhere else but Wembley or the SL Grand Final at Old Trafford. Therefore, is there any need for a National Stadium in the first place?

Lets use the biggest and most iconic venues in the whole of the UK for our biggest, most important games. If that means never playing another RL match at Elland Road ever again, I for one wouldn't be unhappy about that. ;)

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what the guy above me said plus, and I seem to be on my own realising this, Elland rd is a GRAVEYARD for our national side. I'd be more than happy for England/GB to never play there again, redeveloped or not.

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Why can't the RFL use nice 'sparkly' new-ish football stadiums (stadia?) like Man City's or Arsenal's for the likes of the WCC or 4 Nations Final? Would Brammel Lane be a good stadium for the WCC if Wigan or Wires get there next year or is it too far away/not good enough?

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A few things wrong with this idea IMO.

It wouldn't ever be a true National Rugby League Stadium. It'd always just be Elland Road, home of Leeds Utd Football Club, where the RFL occasionally plays matches. Which is what it is now. What benefit would the RFL possibly derive from such an investment? It'd be cheaper just to hire the place out when they need it. Which in my view, should be never anyway.

The idea of confining major RL internationals to Leeds depresses me enormously. It's a recipe for ensuring RL disappears completely off the national radar. We used to play internationals at Wembley and make a song and dance about them. The sooner we get back to that, the better.

The WCC has done ok crowdwise at Elland Road, but that's when Leeds have been playing. One day, it might be another team, from another city.

It would be perverse for the game to have a 'National Stadium' of its own but continue to play the two biggest games of the season elsewhere. Similarly, it would be a travesty to play the Challenge Cup final anywhere else but Wembley or the SL Grand Final at Old Trafford. Therefore, is there any need for a National Stadium in the first place?

Lets use the biggest and most iconic venues in the whole of the UK for our biggest, most important games. If that means never playing another RL match at Elland Road ever again, I for one wouldn't be unhappy about that. ;)

I agree with all of the above. The original poster obviously had not thought through his position carefully.

I also want to emphasize how crucial it is that all future England vs Australia games must be held at Wembley if rugby league is ever to be taken seriously in Britain -- by both mass media and general public -- as an important international sport. We got 73,000 there in 1992 for a World Cup final. No reason why we can't do it again.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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we have a national Rugby league stadium....and there'll be 85,000+ people sat in it on saturday

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A few things wrong with this idea IMO.

It wouldn't ever be a true National Rugby League Stadium. It'd always just be Elland Road, home of Leeds Utd Football Club, where the RFL occasionally plays matches. Which is what it is now. What benefit would the RFL possibly derive from such an investment? It'd be cheaper just to hire the place out when they need it. Which in my view, should be never anyway.

The idea of confining major RL internationals to Leeds depresses me enormously. It's a recipe for ensuring RL disappears completely off the national radar. We used to play internationals at Wembley and make a song and dance about them. The sooner we get back to that, the better.

The WCC has done ok crowdwise at Elland Road, but that's when Leeds have been playing. One day, it might be another team, from another city.

It would be perverse for the game to have a 'National Stadium' of its own but continue to play the two biggest games of the season elsewhere. Similarly, it would be a travesty to play the Challenge Cup final anywhere else but Wembley or the SL Grand Final at Old Trafford. Therefore, is there any need for a National Stadium in the first place?

Lets use the biggest and most iconic venues in the whole of the UK for our biggest, most important games. If that means never playing another RL match at Elland Road ever again, I for one wouldn't be unhappy about that. ;)

yes

can i also add..

How much do they want for the funding?? tens of millions... so 2 points

1. do the RFL actually have that type of money

2. just think of what we can do with that money if we had it..

fund junior development in umpteen areas

help championship and super league clubs get themselves sorted stadium wise and junior academy wise

get a London club a better presence both in the city ie a base and in the press and marketing

get the crusaders settled and developing

get the game started and promoted in Ireland and Scotland

as they cannot seem to do any of hte bits in question 2 then i would suspect the answer to quesntion 1 is "no". if it is "yes" then i would personally prefer any of/all of the ideas in question 2 to be done before we start frittering money away on something we dont need for all of JD's reasons.

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Bramall Lane for a WC semi. In fact a CC semi next year would be nice

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The problem with trying to use Premiership football grounds is the fact that they don't desperately need the money (Man City certainly don't but Arsenal might to repay the costs of building the Emirates) and they'll be under pressure from the FA to only use their stadium for football.

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A few things wrong with this idea IMO.

It wouldn't ever be a true National Rugby League Stadium. It'd always just be Elland Road, home of Leeds Utd Football Club, where the RFL occasionally plays matches. Which is what it is now. What benefit would the RFL possibly derive from such an investment? It'd be cheaper just to hire the place out when they need it. Which in my view, should be never anyway.

It depends on how many events you hold there as to how people would see it. If it is a significant number, then people will more likely see it as a home for RL events. Otherwise, I'd agree with what you're saying. To me, it's just like a football club sharing with a Super League club but on a larger scale.

The idea of confining major RL internationals to Leeds depresses me enormously. It's a recipe for ensuring RL disappears completely off the national radar. We used to play internationals at Wembley and make a song and dance about them. The sooner we get back to that, the better.

I disagree. We've been playing internationals up north for a decade now. How many England/GB gameshave been played in the south? GB vs NZ in 2005. That's it.

So we're not exactly exhausting all our options aroundthe country. Rather, just switching between the usual mid-sized 25k stadia of SL. I think if the RFL had a base for events, then the stability and familiarity generated would help improve crowds more than just chopping and changing venues. I'd love to see us return to 70k+ crowds at Wembley for internationals, but isit going to happen? We could still use it for the World Cup I suppose.

The WCC has done ok crowdwise at Elland Road, but that's when Leeds have been playing. One day, it might be another team, from another city.

The WCC suffers greatly as an event because you only find out a few months before where it's going to be played. We know where the GF and CCF will be played every year, so why not the same for the WCC? If advertised and marketed right, then people will be buying tickets all year round rather than waiting to see if the two teams are attractive enough for them.

It would be perverse for the game to have a 'National Stadium' of its own but continue to play the two biggest games of the season elsewhere. Similarly, it would be a travesty to play the Challenge Cup final anywhere else but Wembley or the SL Grand Final at Old Trafford. Therefore, is there any need for a National Stadium in the first place?

I disagree. I don't see how it would be perverse at all. Is it any different from a sports club taking its bigger games to a bigger stadium than their home ground because they can't fit them in? Quins at Twickenham and Saracens at Wembley for example?

Lets use the biggest and most iconic venues in the whole of the UK for our biggest, most important games. If that means never playing another RL match at Elland Road ever again, I for one wouldn't be unhappy about that. ;)

And what I've proposed won't change that. Unfortunately we only have 2 games that regularly get above 40k (and well above it at that). We need to start building our events to these levels, but because we constantly chop and change the venue and only announce it a few months prior, we don't get a proper chance to build these events up.

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Why can't the RFL use nice 'sparkly' new-ish football stadiums (stadia?) like Man City's or Arsenal's for the likes of the WCC or 4 Nations Final? Would Brammel Lane be a good stadium for the WCC if Wigan or Wires get there next year or is it too far away/not good enough?

When Elland Road is redeveloped then hopefully it will be a nicer and sparklier stadium. There's a lot that needs doing to it. It's going to most likely be a smaller version of Old Trafford in the way it's being redeveloped.

And why would Brammel Lane be any better than Elland Road for Wigan/Wire? It's further away isn't it?

I also want to emphasize how crucial it is that all future England vs Australia games must be held at Wembley if rugby league is ever to be taken seriously in Britain -- by both mass media and general public -- as an important international sport. We got 73,000 there in 1992 for a World Cup final. No reason why we can't do it again.

I disagree. Why is it a necessity we play at Wembley to be taken seriously? How many other sports play their national games there? Did we get taken seriously before when we used to play there?

Plus, when we play World Cups over here, it can still be used.

we have a national Rugby league stadium....and there'll be 85,000+ people sat in it on saturday

How many games do we play there? Hardly a stadium to represent the sport!

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yes

can i also add..

How much do they want for the funding?? tens of millions... so 2 points

1. do the RFL actually have that type of money

The RFL makea profit, but they spend as much of it as they can on other parts of the game.

If they earmarked some money for this over the years, then it would pay for itself with increased revenue from bigger gates and lower costs. It's an investment that would directly pay back.

2. just think of what we can do with that money if we had it..

fund junior development in umpteen areas

help championship and super league clubs get themselves sorted stadium wise and junior academy wise

get a London club a better presence both in the city ie a base and in the press and marketing

get the crusaders settled and developing

get the game started and promoted in Ireland and Scotland

Apart from first one,the rest isn't really the RFL's job to fund, and wouldn't really bring them much back in terms of direct money. It's just them throwing money at projects that won't be giving them money back directly.

With their own stadium, they'd. Be getting more money from events that they can then use to fund better projects over the years anyway.

as they cannot seem to do any of hte bits in question 2 then i would suspect the answer to quesntion 1 is "no". if it is "yes" then i would personally prefer any of/all of the ideas in question 2 to be done before we start frittering money away on something we dont need for all of JD's reasons.

I would like to see the RFL being more effecient with the money they use as well as maximise its turnover in order to be able to fund further projects. Sometimes you need to specualte to accumulate. If we keep doing what we're doing, we're going to be standing still on the event front for a long time.

Bramall Lane for a WC semi. In fact a CC semi next year would be nice

The problem with trying to use Premiership football grounds is the fact that they don't desperately need the money (Man City certainly don't but Arsenal might to repay the costs of building the Emirates) and they'll be under pressure from the FA to only use their stadium for football.

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With England looking to get the FIFA World Cup for 2018, and a redeveloped Elland Road to be one of these stadiums, would it not possibly be a good idea to try and latch onto this development? From what I gather, the stadium needs more funders for its expansion.

The RFL have had some good success at Elland Road (despite it being a dump at the moment). It's right in the middle of the heartlands. If you keep the two major finals (Challenge Cup Final and Grand Final) where they are, we could use the New Elland Road as a base for international games, World Club Challenges, maybe even have the Challenge Cup games there as Magic Weekend-style rounds.

I think RL would benefit from a base for its major events. The RFL could offer season tickets for their events there which could boost attendances for our major games all-round. Would only be worth doing though if we could get a certain amount of events there per year, and so far I can only think of:

World Club Challenge

Mid-Season Test

Challenge Cup 5th Round (MM-style 8 games in two days)

Challenge Cup QF (4 games in two days)

Challenge Cup SF (Double Header)

Championship Finals Day

3-4 End of Season Tests

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your business skills and vision are really coming to the surface now ! NOT

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your business skills and vision are really coming to the surface now ! NOT

So are your IT skills ;)

Enlighten me, otherwise you're just making unproductive noise.

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It usually works out better to own (even in part) than rent

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The RFL makea profit, but they spend as much of it as they can on other parts of the game.

If they earmarked some money for this over the years, then it would pay for itself with increased revenue from bigger gates and lower costs. It's an investment that would directly pay back.

Are leeds united going to be selling us part of Elland Road then? if not then its just investment for a promise of usage.. as such we would be getting no more than we are now so no its investment for no greater gain.. will we get bigger crowds with lower costs??

Bigger crowds- if we are getitng bigger crowds for the games that are staged at elland road now why are we staging them there and not at bigger grounds?? i cant think of one match that we could have moved and got that many more fans in there to be honest (plus what how stupid we would be if we did up the number of spectators with everything else and then we have to find a better stadium than our national stadium to play in!)

lower costs- maybe we can negotiate them down on cost for this injection of money but its not going to be massive, and is it really worth it??

they make a profit yes but it isnt a massive profit, the injection will neeed to be 10s of millions.. we dont make that sort of profit and i dont see the return being any better here than in other projects.

Apart from first one,the rest isn't really the RFL's job to fund, and wouldn't really bring them much back in terms of direct money. It's just them throwing money at projects that won't be giving them money back directly.

With their own stadium, they'd. Be getting more money from events that they can then use to fund better projects over the years anyway.

they may not be the RFLs job at the moment becuase they are not doing it but it doesnt mean they shouldnt be their job. development of the game in London if taken on by the RFL instead of an interested party could be run better potentially with a huge amount more effect on junior developemtn etc.. if done right this could open up a huge new supporting base, the same with wales.. thus actually haveing a much larger retunr on their money by a whole new set of supporteres who may fill any number of other stadiums we may wish to rent..

Junior development in new areas turn out better players making us more competative leaing to more specators leading to "oh sh*t our national stadium is no longer big enough" and then we have invested in a stadium we cannot use.. and are renting out old trafford again..

each one of the areas i mentioned would help grow the game and give it stability thus bringing potentially more supporters/players to the game meaning that we get more through hte gates.. just building a stadium does not bring them in, it may bring in a few more ut to bring in 10 thousand more and so seeing a good retiurn on your money you need to do the other things to increase your audience and playuing potential and as such the potential return on your investmnet is much greater here than in fudning a ground for someone else.

BTW getting the game going in scotland and ireland i believe is very much in the RFL's remit..

I would like to see the RFL being more effecient with the money they use as well as maximise its turnover in order to be able to fund further projects. Sometimes you need to specualte to accumulate. If we keep doing what we're doing, we're going to be standing still on the event front for a long time.

being more efficient with the money they use would certainly mean that they DONT invest in this.. the ROI is not that great, they would be able to get a contract for say 10 years reduced rent but without buying a share in the ground this investmenet would be worthless afdter that contract has run out and so you have no tangible way of recouping the money.

Without buying bricks and mortar the only way you would earn your lets say 20 million back is that if in the time of the contract (most 25years i would think) that you make that 20million at least back, as such you are making the 20million back in the difference between what you would have paid and what you are pauing in reduced rent and the increased revenue from extra supporters.. that is highly unlikely to happen, profit on staging matches are not high enough to even consider making 1 million extra with this. (that is not even including that fact you would want some sort of interest factored in as if you just kept it in the bank you would make more)....

things like development of the game can get more bums on seats but it also can lead to more access for funding etc helping everybody out..

there are more important things for a game that does not turn over huge sums of cash to be dealing with than for a "national Stadium" that is actually just a football ground you put some money into.. IMO

Edited by RP London

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Wouldn't they have to rip out all the seating & add at least 2500 more seats to each of the 4 stands to make it a decent stadium? If the RFL decided to help fund the redevelopment would it just be Leeds United & the RFL who would fund it or would Leeds City Council also help out?

If the England bid gets accepted, Elland Road will be upgraded to 50,000 capacity IIRC.

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My computer crashed when replying to this as I got to the very end! Nightmare.

Apologies for the long response! It's a good debate though.

Are leeds united going to be selling us part of Elland Road then? if not then its just investment for a promise of usage..

Like I said at the start, Leeds City Council are looking for investment for the redevelopment as they haven't found enough yet. I'll try and find the article I read about it later. Terms for the investment would be negotiated to suit us obviously. We'd be more efficient with our money sharing a facility than we would going it alone. It's the same for SL clubs sharing with soccer clubs in a way. You could look at the RFL annual events diary in a similar way as a SL clubs season fixtures.

as such we would be getting no more than we are now so no its investment for no greater gain.. will we get bigger crowds with lower costs??

Bigger crowds- if we are getitng bigger crowds for the games that are staged at elland road now why are we staging them there and not at bigger grounds?? i cant think of one match that we could have moved and got that many more fans in there to be honest (plus what how stupid we would be if we did up the number of spectators with everything else and then we have to find a better stadium than our national stadium to play in!)

I'm not quite sure what you mean here? Staging a game at a bigger ground doesn't necessarily make a difference to the crowd. It's like saying we sell out DW Stadium, so take games to a bigger ground such as Ewood Park. Result? A smaller crowd in a bigger stadium outside of the RL heartlands. You're totally ignoring the impact that a ground in a good location for its market has on the customer. Even in the RL heartlands it can make a difference. Look at 83k in Sydney and 53k in Brisbane. Which one gets the better crowds on a more regular basis?

Leeds is slap bang in the middle of the RL heartlands. It is also slap bang in the middle of the biggest RL market in the country. It is the perfect location for international RL IMO. It's like our version of Brisbane. IMO, we'd get far better crowds for games against NZ and Australia at Elland Road than we would anywhere else in the north on a regular basis. The only thing that puts people off is the state of it, but with redevelopment on the cards that hopefully wouldn't be the case.

When Elland Road is redeveloped, they're looking at a capacity of 51k. Now, I can't see the international game getting regular 51k crowds any time soon so it's hardly an issue. If they do, then what's wrong with keeping at 51k for a while? Why do we need to move? If we want to make more money, and we have the customers, then increase the ticket prices like every other sports club would. We're currently giving them away as it is. And that hasn't ruled out further redevelopment in the future.

lower costs- maybe we can negotiate them down on cost for this injection of money but its not going to be massive, and is it really worth it??

Neither of us are really in a position to say. It's all part of negotiating a good deal, our plans for the number of events there, projections, etc. But I think we'd have far more success with our events there than we would if we kept moving them to different places, paying individual rent costs, different marketing strategies used each time, etc. We would also have an asset that we could sell if needed.

they make a profit yes but it isnt a massive profit, the injection will neeed to be 10s of millions.. we dont make that sort of profit and i dont see the return being any better here than in other projects.

The profit we make is spent on other areas straight away. We could earmark money if needed, as well as get potential investors on board for the project. I think Leeds City Council would be very happy to have the national Rugby League stadium in their city, with the amount of extra income it would bring to the economy from these extra events. I'm sure they would be very supportive. I would mention Carnegie, but I think we've almost bled them dry now! :lol:

they may not be the RFLs job at the moment becuase they are not doing it but it doesnt mean they shouldnt be their job. development of the game in London if taken on by the RFL instead of an interested party could be run better potentially with a huge amount more effect on junior developemtn etc.. if done right this could open up a huge new supporting base, the same with wales.. thus actually haveing a much larger retunr on their money by a whole new set of supporteres who may fill any number of other stadiums we may wish to rent..

But the people that will be benefiting directly from these investments aren't the RFL, it will be the clubs in them areas. Only if the RFL own these clubs would they be directly benefiting. And with past examples, it's hardly a money making exercise for them. This is why they are trying to get investors in, rather than pay for it themselves. It also leads to ethical problems with their governance of a sport if they own certain clubs.

Junior development in new areas turn out better players making us more competative leaing to more specators leading to "oh sh*t our national stadium is no longer big enough" and then we have invested in a stadium we cannot use.. and are renting out old trafford again..

Again, you're mistaking a bigger crowd in a larger stadium for meaning more money. Why pay more for a bigger stadium and cheaper tickets when you can pay less for a smaller stadium and dearer tickets? In some cases, even tickets of the same price would see us get more in the smaller ground if the larger ground costs too much.

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each one of the areas i mentioned would help grow the game and give it stability thus bringing potentially more supporters/players to the game meaning that we get more through hte gates.. just building a stadium does not bring them in, it may bring in a few more ut to bring in 10 thousand more and so seeing a good retiurn on your money you need to do the other things to increase your audience and playuing potential and as such the potential return on your investmnet is much greater here than in fudning a ground for someone else.

You make it sound like I'm suggesting just building a stadium and hoping for the best? There would still be marketing, etc. In fact, it would probably be to a greater extent and more effective if in the same place. Everyone will already know where the event is. They'll know how to get there, where's good to go beforehand, where they like to sit, how much to travel, etc. as it will already have been done regularly. You could do deals for people to keep a certain seat, like a season pass, etc. You'd be able to sell to businesses in the area easier (investment in Leeds is huge at the moment). It would be far more efficient to stay in the same place than to keep moving.

BTW getting the game going in scotland and ireland i believe is very much in the RFL's remit..

I thought RLI do their own thing now? Not sure what the situation is in Scotland. What I do know is we can't spend our

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