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ParisSurtout

Stadia we should use for the 2013 World Cup

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I think it is ridiculous to suggest that we could get anywhere near a decent crowd at Old Trafford for a game not involving England. Even if it was the World Cup Final that England COULD be playing at. To think we'd get a crowd even the third of the size of Old Trafford with the public knowing full well England WON'T be in it because they'll be in the semi final is very very poor judgement.

It is not ridiculous if the World Cup is given the buzz that a properly marketed sporting event is given.

It is beyond your ability to imagine this because you are forgetting that I have predicated this all these ground choices on a serious marketing campaign --- something that has not occurred since Nigel Wood became prominent in RFL decisonmaking in 2001. If Richard Lewis is not prepared to go 21st century, and relieve Wood of the status as chief marketing decisionmaker, then everything I have written is pointless.

If England is playing in one semi final at Wembley on a Saturday, and England wins, expect a massive walk up to any northern stadium (including Old Trafford) the next day to see which of Australia, New Zealand, France, Wales etc will be England's opponent the following weekend.

The only sizable alternative to Old Trafford is Elland Road, which fans on here seem not to like going to. Bramall Lane may be too small. The other rugby league stadia (e.g. DW, Galpharm) will definitely be too small.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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Shedingly shouldn't be used, 3 sides of the stadium are utter ######, and given the time of year the WC will be played there's a pretty good chance anyone stood at the western end will get pi$$ wet through.

Good point.

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Depends how the format is.

If the format is 4 groups, with the top of each group going into the semi-finals, then you could guarantee England would be in a certain semi-final venue.

This is why I wouldn't suggest using certain stadia at certain points until the format is announced (other than the final being a must at Wembley).

i would be suprised if they went with 4 groups with the strength of nations and tonkings being a major concern seemingly (not so worried myself).. so would expect it to be similar to last time to be honest.

but i agree format first, venues second.

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i would be suprised if they went with 4 groups with the strength of nations and tonkings being a major concern seemingly (not so worried myself).. so would expect it to be similar to last time to be honest.

but i agree format first, venues second.

I have no idea what to expect in all honesty! 14 teams is a weird number to get groups from!

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It is not ridiculous if the World Cup is given the buzz that a properly marketed sporting event is given.

It is beyond your ability to imagine this because you are forgetting that I have predicated this all these ground choices on a serious marketing campaign --- something that has not occurred since Nigel Wood became prominent in RFL decisonmaking in 2001. If Richard Lewis is not prepared to go 21st century, and relieve Wood of the status as chief marketing decisionmaker, then everything I have written is pointless.

If England is playing in one semi final at Wembley on a Saturday, and England wins, expect a massive walk up to any northern stadium (including Old Trafford) the next day to see which of Australia, New Zealand, France, Wales etc will be England's opponent the following weekend.

The only sizable alternative to Old Trafford is Elland Road, which fans on here seem not to like going to. Bramall Lane may be too small. The other rugby league stadia (e.g. DW, Galpharm) will definitely be too small.

What would you be doing in this serious marketing campaign and how would you be paying for it? What would you do if the people didn't turn up? You've not actually said anything.

The thing is, you've later gone on to say that you would expect a huge walk-up crowd should England win. If they lose, what are you going to do with the less than 20k rattling around OT? It would be a disaster.

So what is this serious marketing campaign you'll be doing?

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If Old Trafford is too big for a semi-final not containing England the what about the Stadium of Light? Surely if the RFL had special deals for all the semi-pro, Amateur & junior teams in Tyne&Wear, Durham, Teeside, Northumbria, Durham, Cumbria & North Yorkshire & their fans then they could get 30,000+ to watch the Aussies or the Kiwis? Plus it's not that far from the 'heartlands'.

Edited by HappyDave

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If Old Trafford is too big for a semi-final not containing England the what about the Stadium of Light? Surely if the RFL had special deals for all the semi-pro, Amateur & junior teams in Tyne&Wear, Durham, Teeside, Northumbria, Durham, Cumbria & North Yorkshire & their fans then they could get 30,000+ to watch the Aussies or the Kiwis? Plus it's not that far from the 'heartlands'.

It would be easier to fill Old Trafford than Stadium of Light!. It's about 100 miles away from the heartlands, and there isn't much going on up there RL wise.

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Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.

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Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.

The main RL areas of Cumbria are still about 100 miles away from the Gateshead and the rest of the North East's population centres, so grouping them together is a bit odd.

There is only one semi-pro club in the North East. There are a fair few amateur clubs popping up, but there are much bigger areas that would be much better for a big game than there.

It would be an awful idea to have BOTH semis away from the heartlands anyway. In fact, I think it would be verging on a bad idea to have any away from the heartlands in all honesty.

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Ok, fair enough, but ignoring the Gateshead fiasco there seems to actually be a fair amount of semi-pro, amateur & junior RL teams in Cumbria & the North East. If only we could get over RL fan apathy for the International game.

You have inadvertently touched on one of the biggest reasons why we don't get good crowds for internationals. That is, the junior/amateur teams.

It seems beyond the ability of the RFL/Community Game management to make sure that there aren't a full programme of amateur fixtures on the same day as the big RL events.

Every one of those amateur players who is playing on the same saturday as an international etc is a lost potential paying spectator.

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How about using the Reebok stadium for the final - 1st class facilities, fairly easy to get to being just 2 minutes off the M61, less than an hours drive from most of the heartland clubs and not so big that it could end up half empty if England dont make it to the final but big enough to accomodate all the fans that probably will attend if they do.

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How about using the Reebok stadium for the final - 1st class facilities, fairly easy to get to being just 2 minutes off the M61, less than an hours drive from most of the heartland clubs and not so big that it could end up half empty if England dont make it to the final but big enough to accomodate all the fans that probably will attend if they do.

Reebok can fit 28,000. Is that big enough for the non-England semi-final?

Edited by ParisSurtout

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Reebok can fit 28,000. Is that big enough for the non-England semi-final?

Past RLWC semi finals:

2008:

England vs New Zealand - 26,659

Australia vs Fiji - 15,855

2000:

England vs New Zealand - 16,032

Australia vs Wales - 8,114

1995:

England vs Wales - 30,042

Australia vs New Zealand - 16,608

Is it big enough? Well it was too big for the England semi final in 2000, so I very much doubt its capacity would even nearly be tested without England playing. Only one semi has touched over that capacity, and that's when Wales were fairly good.

But with your superior marketing campaign (which you have yet to enlighten us on), I don't think there are stadia big enough to hold the RLWC13!

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Wellsy, we're not RFL Marketeers it's up to them to build the profile of RL over the next 3 years, to get the media onside & really Market the RLWC 2013 well to get as many RL fans going to it as possible. Must aim higher. :D

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Wellsy, we're not RFL Marketeers it's up to them to build the profile of RL over the next 3 years, to get the media onside & really Market the RLWC 2013 well to get as many RL fans going to it as possible. Must aim higher. :D

I know this, you know this, but ParisS seems to think that by saying "serious marketing campaign" it actually has some meaning. There are budgets and other obstacles that restrict us. There is always room for improvement, and we should be getting better crowds. But it is ridiculous to think that we could get a decent crowd at Old Trafford (75k) for a semi final not involving England when we have only touched above 30k once with a semi final involving England.

What sort of miracle marketing campaign would turn around that record?

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Yeah, fair enough, I agree. Although I would like to see a good, new-ish, well built 25,000+ stadium to play the semi-final not containing England. I'd hope with good marketting and special ticket deals we could get well over 15,000 but maybe I'm dreaming.

Edited by HappyDave

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Yeah, fair enough, I agree. Although I would like to see a good, new-ish, well built 25,000+ stadium to play the semi-final not containing England. I'd hope with good marketting and special ticket deals we could get well over 15,000 but maybe I'm dreaming.

No, that's a realistic target so you're not dreaming.

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I am sure that if this event is marketed properly you could be expecting crowds of 12,000-15,000 even for minor nation contests, like Lebanon vs USA

Not even close for games like that. If they can barely get 15,000 for a Tri Series encounter between GB and New Zealand at the birthplace of the sport then forget it. Brits expected the Kiwis to win and didn't turn out in the force that they should have done.

As it happens, GB won the game.

And marketing had ###### all to do with any of the above. Even ticketing deals.

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No, that's a realistic target so you're not dreaming.

Actually I said 30,000+ stadium and hope for well over 20,000 fans but chickened out. :D

I would hope with raising the profile of RL & plenty of promotion & ticket deals I would like to see over 20,000 fans going to the none England semi-final but I'm sad to admit I know that's extremely unlikely.

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Actually I said 30,000+ stadium and hope for well over 20,000 fans but chickened out. :D

I would hope with raising the profile of RL & plenty of promotion & ticket deals I would like to see over 20,000 fans going to the none England semi-final but I'm sad to admit I know that's extremely unlikely.

Totally depends on the format for me.

At the end of the day, it's pretty certain that England, New Zealand and Australia will be 3 of the 4 teams. So it depends on:

1. which two of them teams are playing each other

2. who the fourth team are

3. whether England are playing the fourth team or one of the other big two.

The problem is, unless the format is construed in a way that England are playing a certain team, there is no way to predict this sort of thing. To me, with the possibility of certain games, your most likely attendances will be around these marks:

England vs New Zealand (20k), Australia vs AN Other (12k)

England vs Australia (30k), New Zealand vs AN Other (10k)

England vs AN Other (15k), New Zealand vs Australia (20k)

Something like Elland Road and Keepmoat would probably be suitable if we wanted a good sell out. But they don't seem that ambitious really. It's a shame really, but without other teams that will draw in a decent crowd, this will always be the case. I can't see England vs France, Wales, Fiji, Tonga, PNG, Samoa, etc. drawing 20k at this stage. And certainly can't see Aus/NZ versus the above drawing anywhere near it.

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Depends how the format is.

If the format is 4 groups, with the top of each group going into the semi-finals, then you could guarantee England would be in a certain semi-final venue.

This is why I wouldn't suggest using certain stadia at certain points until the format is announced (other than the final being a must at Wembley).

With 14 teams, 4 groups implies two with 4 teams and two with 3. If they want an England-Australia or England-NZ game in the group stage to create a buzz they can't risk letting only 4 teams advance from that stage in case England loses their first game like in 2000. It's more likely they'd have 6 advancing past the group stage with the winners of the 4-team groups going right into the semi-finals and the other 4 teams into two quarter-finals. Putting the big 3 in the two 4-team groups more or less guarantees they'll all advance without any real bother and would give England (providing they can beat Australia or NZ who they'd presumably play first) the chance to qualify directly for the semi-finals.

I've thought for some time they should tailor things as closely as possible to how the 1995 World Cup was run, with a bit more ambition where venues are concerned.

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The following is a mock up I just did at work. It's based on the 4,4,3,3 format with the winners of the big groups to go straight through and the runners up to play the winners of the other groups in quarter finals.

___________________________________________________________________

Pool A - Pool B - Pool C - Pool D

England - France - Wales - Scotland

Australia - New Zealand - Fiji - Ireland

Samoa - Tonga - Cook Is/Lebanon - Papua New Guinea

Qualifier 1 - Qualifier 2

Pool A

England v Australia @ Wembley

Samoa v Q1 @ Warrington

England v Samoa @ Huddersfield

Australia v Q1 @ Hull

England v Q1 @ St Helens

Australia v Samoa @ The Stoop

Pool B

France v NZ @ Toulouse

Tonga v Q2 @ Leigh

France v Tonga @ Paris

NZ v Q2 @ Carcassonne

France v Q2 @ Perpignan

NZ v Tonga @ Salford

Pool C

Wales v Fiji @ Wrexham

Wales v CI/Leb @ Swansea

Fiji v CI/Leb @ Widnes

Pool D

Scotland v Ireland @ Dublin/Edinburgh

Scotland v PNG @ Edinburgh/Glasgow

Ireland v PNG @ Dublin/Belfast/Cork

Quarter finals

1 Pool A 2 v Pool B 2 @ Wigan

2 Pool C 1 v Pool D 1 @ Doncaster

Semi finals

1 Pool A 1 v QF 2 winner @ Elland Rd

2 Pool B 1 v QF 1 winner @ Brammal Lane

Final @ Old Trafford

____________________________________________________________________

We won't know exactly what league grounds will be built for a while yet but this format gives most of the good RL grounds a game, includes some expansion areas like Wales, Scotland, Ireland, London and Paris, takes travel into account, looks at where best to play certain games and aims high enough without being too optimistic.

Edited by East Coast Tiger

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Why could you expect crowds of that size ?

In the 2008 RLWC, a total of 11 out of 18 games (61%) didn't attract crowds of that size. If they couldn't do it in Oz then why would it happen here ?

Are you saying that the ARL didn't market the event properly ?

There was ###### all promotion of the RLWC here in Australia, both by the ARL and the broadcaster Channel Nine.

If it was promoted better, no doubt there would have been better crowds.

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"get the marketing right" to me this means letting fans know when games are taking place :ie the teams, the venue's the KO times the admission prices, parking, public transport to the ground. we as fans can do our bit by letting family, friends and work colleague's know when this and other Rugby League events are taking place. this weekends Carnige Challenge cup final is a sell out as regards both clubs taking part in the final have sold out of tickets, lets hope that the Grand Final is a sell out as well, and yes and it can be done if we "get the marketing right"

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