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ParisSurtout

Stadia we should use for the 2013 World Cup

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There was ###### all promotion of the RLWC here in Australia, both by the ARL and the broadcaster Channel Nine.

If it was promoted better, no doubt there would have been better crowds.

Well I was there and I saw loads of advertising for it, certainly a damn sight more than you'd get in this country. There were TV adverts, billboards everywhere, lots of newspaper articles and other media coverage, it was all over the Jetstar planes etc etc

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I guess there was some advertsing done in 2008 but it was very budget stuff, in fact mostly free stuff from News Ltd. And obviously the press coverage in NSW and Qld would have been pretty significant. But it was still low key compared to the NRL or Origin. It's partly due to the timing, being the off-season, and partly due to the perception that IRL is insignificant. Channel Nine did a ###### job promoting and broadcasting it. It was an after-thought for them and, to be fair, the whole country really.

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You seem to have omitted Wakefield and Castleford, surely both venues would be worthy of a semi-final at least?

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You seem to have omitted Wakefield and Castleford, surely both venues would be worthy of a semi-final at least?

I know you're being sarcastic, but I actually would have included one or both if we knew they were going to be built by then.

It actually poses an interesting point about how far RL stadia has come since 2000. Back then there was only three or four all-seat new stadiums in RL towns. There were more games in 2000, but even so we now have enough new stadiums in RL towns to cover the tournament with a few games to expansion areas and a few to soccer stadiums. In 2000 we had heaps of games in non RL towns but still had to use gronds like The Boulevard, Derwent Park, Knowsley, Craven Park - The Jungle hosted a quarter final FFS! By 2013 there may be so many new boutique venues in RL heartlands that there might not be enough games to go around them all.

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I guess there was some advertsing done in 2008 but it was very budget stuff, in fact mostly free stuff from News Ltd. And obviously the press coverage in NSW and Qld would have been pretty significant. But it was still low key compared to the NRL or Origin. It's partly due to the timing, being the off-season, and partly due to the perception that IRL is insignificant. Channel Nine did a ###### job promoting and broadcasting it. It was an after-thought for them and, to be fair, the whole country really.

Agree.

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Please stop posting that Wembley should be used. 15000 in a 90000 stadium would look shockingly bad.

Even England v Australia in a final will not top 50k

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Please stop posting that Wembley should be used. 15000 in a 90000 stadium would look shockingly bad.

Even England v Australia in a final will not top 50k

Rubbish. Here are the figures for the golden decade, before Nigel Wood began making decisions on venues:

1990. Great Britain 19 vs Australia 12 Wembley Crowd: 54,569

1990. Australia 14 vs Great Britain 10 Old Trafford Crowd: 46,615

1990. Australia 14 vs Great Britain 0 Elland Road Crowd: 32,500

1992. Australia 10 vs Great Britain 6 Wembley Crowd: 73,631

1994. Great Britain 8 vs Australia 4 Wembley Crowd: 57,034

1994. Australia 38 vs Great Britain 8 Old Trafford Crowd: 43,930

1994 Australia 23 vs Great Britain 4 Elland Road Crowd: 39,468

1995: Australia 20 vs England 16 (Pool match World Cup) Wembley Crowd: 41,271

1995: Australia 16 vs England 8 (Final World Cup) Wembley Crowd: 66,540

For the next three years Super League vs ARL war divided the Australian code. A Super League representative side came to Britain in 1997. No doubt it was not considered a regular Test. Here were the crowds:

1997. Australia 38 vs Great Britain 14 Wembley. Crowd: 41,135

1997. Great Britain 20 vs Australia 12 Old Trafford. Crowd: 40,324

1997. Australia 37 vs Great Britain 20 Elland Road. Crowd: 39,337

So except for the 1995 pool match and the 1997 Super League Test, all Wembley crowds have been over 50,000.

We also see that in each years series of Tests Wembley has attracted more fans than either Old Trafford or Elland Road.

Obviously a properly administered World Cup could expect more than 50,000 at Wembley for a final, and for a semi-final involving England. A crowd of over 73,000 has already been achieved there for a World Cup final, and could be realised under a competent management team in 2013.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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Please stop posting that Wembley should be used. 15000 in a 90000 stadium would look shockingly bad.

Even England v Australia in a final will not top 50k

Go on then, enlighten us. What makes you think that England vs Australia in the World Cup would get 15,000? Past attendances wouldn't be one of them, so we all must be missing something...

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Please stop posting that Wembley should be used. 15000 in a 90000 stadium would look shockingly bad.

Even England v Australia in a final will not top 50k

Not quite 15000, but 25000 would still look empty, play the final at Man City, Semis at Bolton's Reebok & KC Stadium, England Matches at Saints, Salford (If they finish building both by then) and Headingley, New Zealand v Australia at Loftus Road (always packed during 4 Nations), Other Group A games at Doncaster, and Warrington, other pool games at Halton CS, Leigh SV, Hull KR, Rodney Parade, Tolouse, Perpignan, (avoid Paris, bad idea) Brewery Field or Parc Y Scarlets Llanelli, Dublin (not Lansdowne or Croake Park) and Belfast, & Edinburgh OR Glasgow (but not when Hearts/Hibs & Rangers/Celtic at home).

Edited by Bleep1673

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Not quite 15000, but 25000 would still look empty, play the final at Man City, Semis at Bolton's Reebok & KC Stadium, England Matches at Saints, Salford (If they finish building both by then) and Headingley, New Zealand v Australia at Loftus Road (always packed during 4 Nations), Other Group A games at Doncaster, and Warrington, other pool games at Halton CS, Leigh SV, Hull KR, Rodney Parade, Tolouse, Perpignan, (avoid Paris, bad idea) Brewery Field or Parc Y Scarlets Llanelli, Dublin (not Lansdowne or Croake Park) and Belfast, & Edinburgh OR Glasgow (but not when Hearts/Hibs & Rangers/Celtic at home).

Where does this figure of 25,000 come from? Are you incapable of reading previous posts?

I have pointed out that during the decade of the 1990s, when rugby league Tests were played regularly at Wembley, there was never a Wembley crowd less than 40,000 and most matches were over 50,000. One crowd was over 73,000 and another over 66,000. Yet you bring up a crowd of 25,000 which has no basis in reality.

Why can't you make predictions based on evidence of past experience, rather than based on nothing?

Edited by ParisSurtout

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Why can't you make predictions based on evidence of past experience, rather than based on nothing?

They aren't. You're ignoring past internationals of this decade.

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I know a number of Fev fans have openly stated they would never attend an international due to the way the club was treated over the start of SL and also due to franchising. I'm not trying to start the old arguments about this here, or whether they are right or wrong to say this, but how many lower league teams supporters feel the same way? Could that have a significant impact on international attendances?

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They aren't. You're ignoring past internationals of this decade.

How could I be ignoring internationals of the past decade? During most of the past decade Wembley was closed and under reconstruction. It was only reopened in 2007.

But in 2001 Nigel Wood began allocating internationals to 25,000 seater stadia. Once Wembley was reopened he was not interested in having any internationals there. He preferred the smaller stadia with smaller crowds and smaller profits for reasons a rational man cannot possibly fathom, given the success of the 1990s at Wembley, and the impoverished state (relative to other sports) of rugby league in Britain.

Wembley has never been used in the past decade, so it has never been tested. I am very surprised that a man of your age and background did not know any of this.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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How could I be ignoring internationals of the past decade? During most of the past decade Wembley was closed and under reconstruction. It was only reopened in 2007

Internationals still took place and did not fill up.

Or have you conveniently forgotten?

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Internationals still took place and did not fill up.

Or have you conveniently forgotten?

I haven't forgotten. You haven't grasped my point. Whenever you lowball internationals by holding them in second rate venues ( and doing little promotional expenditure) you get second rate crowds.

When you put them in prestige stadia people -- who include soft core fans of rugby league --- take them more seriously.

The other factor is the soft core southern audience for rugby league. A huge percentage of the crowds for internationals at Wembley are from the south of England. They won't travel north, while the hard core northern fans will travel south to Wembley. Look at the figures I posted and try to digest them. Wembley outscored even a prestigious northern venue like Old Trafford every year, while Old Trafford got bigger crowds than Elland Road.

Look at the venues where Tests were held in the 1980s. Old Trafford, used once in 1986, attracted 50,583. The other venues like Hull, Leeds and Wigan got the same miserable 20-30,000 crowds that we have seen in the last decade.

The lessons should have been clear to everyone. Old Trafford is more attractive for Tests than the small club grounds, and Wembley has a greater ability to attract crowds than any stadium in the provincial north.

Only Nigel Wood and you don't seem to grasp this.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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I haven't forgotten. You haven't grasped my point. Whenever you lowball internationals by holding them in second rate venues ( and doing little promotional expenditure) you get second rate crowds

When you put them in prestige stadia people -- who include soft core fans of rugby league --- take them more seriously

All very well in theory. If the birthplace of the sport isn't "prestigious" enough for you however . . .

The other factor is the soft core southern audience for rugby league. A huge percentage of the crowds for internationals at Wembley are from the south of England. They won't travel north, while the hard core northern fans will travel south to Wembley. Look at the figures I posted and try to digest them. Wembley outscored even a prestigious northern venue like Old Trafford every year, while Old Trafford got bigger crowds than Elland Road

You may as well go back to the forties and fifties if you're going to apply comparisons like that.

Only Nigel Wood and you don't seem to grasp this

If you think the stadia used are the reason for poor international crowds then its you who is missing the trick. Expectancy and who is on the field have a lot more of an effect on numbers than any of this.

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Why can't you make predictions based on evidence of past experience, rather than based on nothing?

Possibly the same reason you can't? i.e. using 70k stadia for the semis that have never attracted more than 31k, even at bigger grounds.

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Possibly the same reason you can't? i.e. using 70k stadia for the semis that have never attracted more than 31k, even at bigger grounds.

Wembley has never been tried for a World Cup semi final. So there is no direct equivalent evidence to go on.

However what we do have is a World Cup pool game, when an England vs Australia match in 1995 got 41,271 at the Old Wembley. We also have the pool game from 2000, held in the worst English storm weather in 100 years, when the rail lines to the north were shut down, yet still attracted 31,000 to the enemy territory of Twickenham.

It is reasonable to assume that a semi-final involving England could top the 1995 pool match crowd of 41,271, and go well over 50,000 -- maybe even hit the 73,000 plus World Cup record -- if properly promoted.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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Wembley has never been tried for a World Cup semi final. So there is no direct equivalent evidence to go on.

However what we do have is a World Cup pool game, when an England vs Australia match in 1995 got 41,271 at the Old Wembley. We also have the pool game from 2000, held in the worst English storm weather in 100 years, when the rail lines to the north were shut down, yet still attracted 31,000 to the enemy territory of Twickenham.

It is reasonable to assume that a semi-final involving England could top the 1995 pool match crowd of 41,271, and go well over 50,000 -- maybe even hit the 73,000 plus World Cup record -- if properly promoted.

Yes play a game at Old Trafford! 41271 would still look empty in a 80000 stadium, how much does it cost to hire Old Trafford? How much profit can the RFL make? We don't use these stadia for free, we are trying to turn a profit in the 2013 WC, the last one here made a loss, poor weather didn't help, neither did taking matches to Gloucester, Twickenham, and the Millenium, which was only open on the lower 2 tiers (I was there).

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The one thing we can see from past GB v Oz attendances is how much more popular regular Ashes series were compared to current arrangements.

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The one thing we can see from past GB v Oz attendances is how much more popular regular Ashes series were compared to current arrangements.

No it does not show that. We had an Ashes series in 2001, which was long anticipated (because of the gap of no series since 1994). Yet the RFL decided to put the Tests in tiny stadia.

No one expected Great Britain to win a game. But it did win the first Test. Then the second Test was at Bolton, and should have sold out all 28,000 seats. But it didn't because Nigel Wood, who was in charge of promotion and budget for the RFL, did not want to spend any money on promotion.

This all sums up the attitude of Nigel Wood. Hold the games in tiny northern stadia, which no southern England fans will travel to, and then don't spend any money promoting the event. Presto, an unfilled little stadium.

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No one expected Great Britain to win a game. But it did win the first Test. Then the second Test was at Bolton, and should have sold out all 28,000 seats. But it didn't because Nigel Wood, who was in charge of promotion and budget for the RFL, did not want to spend any money on promotion

Just down to "the promotion" was it? :lol:

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Something I have thought before, and maybe this is quite negative, but why not have a 3rd place playoff, and hold a double header at Wembley on final day? I know it is manipulating things to ensure that England are pretty much guaranteed to appear on the finals day, but hey, we need to be realistic about what we can achieve.

Another alternative is to have a double header at Wembley for the semi finals, and then the Final at a more reasonable stadium like the City of Manchester Stadium.

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Rubbish. Here are the figures for the golden decade, before Nigel Wood began making decisions on venues:

1990. Great Britain 19 vs Australia 12 Wembley Crowd: 54,569

1990. Australia 14 vs Great Britain 10 Old Trafford Crowd: 46,615

1990. Australia 14 vs Great Britain 0 Elland Road Crowd: 32,500

1992. Australia 10 vs Great Britain 6 Wembley Crowd: 73,631

1994. Great Britain 8 vs Australia 4 Wembley Crowd: 57,034

1994. Australia 38 vs Great Britain 8 Old Trafford Crowd: 43,930

1994 Australia 23 vs Great Britain 4 Elland Road Crowd: 39,468

1995: Australia 20 vs England 16 (Pool match World Cup) Wembley Crowd: 41,271

1995: Australia 16 vs England 8 (Final World Cup) Wembley Crowd: 66,540

For the next three years Super League vs ARL war divided the Australian code. A Super League representative side came to Britain in 1997. No doubt it was not considered a regular Test. Here were the crowds:

1997. Australia 38 vs Great Britain 14 Wembley. Crowd: 41,135

1997. Great Britain 20 vs Australia 12 Old Trafford. Crowd: 40,324

1997. Australia 37 vs Great Britain 20 Elland Road. Crowd: 39,337

So except for the 1995 pool match and the 1997 Super League Test, all Wembley crowds have been over 50,000.

We also see that in each years series of Tests Wembley has attracted more fans than either Old Trafford or Elland Road.

Obviously a properly administered World Cup could expect more than 50,000 at Wembley for a final, and for a semi-final involving England. A crowd of over 73,000 has already been achieved there for a World Cup final, and could be realised under a competent management team in 2013.

A few things to bear in mind about those days:-

Test matches were shown on terrestrial TV on a Saturday afternoon - while you could argue that this would reduce the match attendance, it was also had a massive marketing effect. GB games were national events, in the public eye and looked attractive enough to want to attend. These days that just isn't the case - the games are played at a strange times on a satellite station.

In the early/mid 90s it was just about possible to believe that 1982 had been a temporary low for GB, and that we were improving and catching the Aussies up. Surely it was just a matter of time before we had that historic test series victory. 15/20 years later who really thinks that there is a realistic chance of England (or even GB) getting the better of the Kangaroos?

Those Wembley attendances didn't just happen, they were built up over a number of years, using soccer stadiums such as Elland Road and Old Trafford at first. Sure we can moan about the recent marketing of internationals but we are where we are, and we are now used to tests being smaller affairs. It will take years to change this perception.

I think there is just about a case for making Wembley the venue for the final, and given a marketing effort that has not been seen in recent years, and the game's fans rallying round, then it could just about be played in front of a decent crowd. Not a semi as well, though.

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Something I have thought before, and maybe this is quite negative, but why not have a 3rd place playoff, and hold a double header at Wembley on final day? I know it is manipulating things to ensure that England are pretty much guaranteed to appear on the finals day, but hey, we need to be realistic about what we can achieve.

Another alternative is to have a double header at Wembley for the semi finals, and then the Final at a more reasonable stadium like the City of Manchester Stadium.

I like the first option. It is a good idea.

However the second option does not make good marketing sense. I would not use Wembley for the semis and then a smaller northern stadium for the final. It goes against the basic marketing psychology of building up to the final as the ultimate event of the competition.

Edited by ParisSurtout

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