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jannerboyuk

Sticking at it in wrexham

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nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent

It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?

Bridgend spent 2 of those 3 years in Championship 1 playing in front of literally hundreds of people, yet one year later they had a Super League license. To put it in context it is the same level of 'preparation' as Hunslet being given a SL franchise in 2012. That is hardly preparation for Super League.

You repeat this notion that they have done better with 6 weeks like a mantra. If they had stayed in Bridgend how would they have done different on the pitch this year? They would have still had Brian Noble and whoever he signed for them.

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nonsense.

they spent 3 years preparing for SL in NL1 and 2.

this preparation did nothing for them.

you say it was too soon for CC to be promoted to SL after 3 years preparing yet wrexham had 6 weeks and have done better.

pretty conclusive.

and im not buying the way you pick the crowds to suit your argument. their average is over 5000 which is excellent

It's impossible to say it did nothing for them without seeing the difference had they just started up from scratch in Bridgend. If Celtic Crusaders started up from nothing and went straight to SL at Bridgend, for all we know they could have averaged 1,500 and those three years in the lower leagues could have proved pivotal. It's not conclusive in the slightest.

And as MD says, there is still time for it all to come crumbling down ala Paris St Germain, who also started off well. They got some really good crowds, but also went down to getting a 500 crowd vs Salford (worst in SL history), 1,000 against Wigan and 1,500 against Warrington.

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Sigh. Yet another positive post hijacked by the egos. Cue more pointless ranting that no one reads.

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Sigh. Yet another positive post hijacked by the egos. Cue more pointless ranting that no one reads.

What exactly do you want from a thread like this? It's a discussion forum ffs and if you had bothered to read it you'd see that it's all been perfectly civil and virtually everybody agrees that they should be persisted with.

Without debate all you'd get is about 2 replies of people saying, 'good stuff.'

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What exactly do you want from a thread like this? It's a discussion forum ffs and if you had bothered to read it you'd see that it's all been perfectly civil and virtually everybody agrees that they should be persisted with.

Without debate all you'd get is about 2 replies of people saying, 'good stuff.'

All I've seen is the usual guff from the usual suspects. This forum has become very stale so I'll think I'll leave you to your echo chamber for a while.

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All I've seen is the usual guff from the usual suspects. This forum has become very stale so I'll think I'll leave you to your echo chamber for a while.

If debate isn't allowed in your world, what makes it exciting?

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It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?

They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.

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They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.

Strange that they never did it again if it proved to be such a success.

Unless you charge them

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They took a half-page advert in League Express, prominently placed in the newspaper, on the Monday morning prior to the game against Leeds. The main thrust of the advert, on my advice, was to emphasise how quick it was to travel from Leeds to Wrexham.

On the day they did that, they sold 800 tickets, and it enabled them to build up momentum and start talking about a sell-out. The momentum continued and they did reach that level of ticket sales, with some fans not being able to get in on the night.

They never did that for any other game.

Fair enough but you'd have to presume that they aren't going to do this very often next season either.

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Fair enough but you'd have to presume that they aren't going to do this very often next season either.

The situation is Wrexham is not the finished product. If the club left, we can assume that very little would spring up in its place. The number of hard core fans will be limited.

However, I am genuinely surprised by how well it has gone. The work is not finished and there are issues, but if it carries on like this it certainly surpassed my expectations and perhaps yours?

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Strange that they never did it again if it proved to be such a success.

Unless you charge them

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Firstly, Crusaders attendances were always likely to dwindle after the first few matches - You get the "Heineken effect" with a lot of early froth which burns off. The key will be the retention rate of Welsh Wrexham area fans next year and the year after. The travelling hordes from Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Widnes (in 2011 or 2012) will keep the club afloat in the way that certain Heartland clubs enjoy gate inflation due to the arrival of the fans from the above clubs the Rhinos and the two Hull clubs.

I can live with the overseas players in the Cru team at the moment - As with London in its early days you have to have a competitive side to make the franchise work. I would however like to see a five year plan to gradually make the club more Welsh year on year. The Cru have the coaching infrastructure and the juniors to make this a reality.

The club is in Wrexham, counted as part of Llanelli in RU terms so ripe for establishing League as the Rugby code in the area. And having recently been in South Wales recently on cricket duty I can confirm the Cru still get a fair shake in The South Wales Echo.

The only jarring note I have is that in my experience having been to Bridgend and Wrexham I felt the Cru fans in Bridgend were the more "rugby" oriented crowd of the two and I still harbour doubts about the long term commitment of the clubs owners to a successful RL club in Wales for when a downturn comes on and off the field will the owners stick with it or bail out. IMO the jury's out on this.

Top down expansion does not work - and I am a Quins ST holder who has watched the club since 1996. That said we have what we have, The Cru are here and every effort should be made to develop Welsh Rugby League regardless of how the club got where it is. It's here and RL fans should support it for the good of the game domestically and internationally.

Finanlly if I am clubless next year, I will be spending a few weekends up in the north west with the cousins so catching a few Cru games will be on the agenda. That's a good enough reason to keep the Cru going IMO ;)

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The situation is Wrexham is not the finished product. If the club left, we can assume that very little would spring up in its place. The number of hard core fans will be limited.

However, I am genuinely surprised by how well it has gone. The work is not finished and there are issues, but if it carries on like this it certainly surpassed my expectations and perhaps yours?

Of course it did. If anybody tells you they thought that they would start off with a 10k sellout they'd be lying. Their inital enthusiasm for RL was refreshing but this has largely died down to be replaced with something similar to what we had before.

I was originally replying to the idea that they are proof that top down expansion works better than giving an expansion club time in the Championship because they have done better than Celtic did. This is far from conclusive for a couple of reasons, mainly that Celtic were barely more ready than they were and that once they have settled they are at a similar level of support.

I personally think it could go either way and it of course needs to be given the chance to do so over the next licensing period. Next year will be a very important one in my opinion, if they don't build their crowds next year they may struggle to ever do so again.

Edited by Maximus Decimus

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It's not picking crowds at all. It's showing that since their crowds have settled they are a similar level. They got a 10,300 sellout for Leeds and recently only 5,100 for their nearest Super League club who travel well, how do you want to explain that drop?

Bridgend spent 2 of those 3 years in Championship 1 playing in front of literally hundreds of people, yet one year later they had a Super League license. To put it in context it is the same level of 'preparation' as Hunslet being given a SL franchise in 2012. That is hardly preparation for Super League.

You repeat this notion that they have done better with 6 weeks like a mantra. If they had stayed in Bridgend how would they have done different on the pitch this year? They would have still had Brian Noble and whoever he signed for them.

look i can do the funky maths too :

had they not moved the 2 games to neath their crowd average would be 6000

the RFL has learnt from the Celtic crusaders / wrexham thing, and also the pointless excercise that was toulose in the championship and will now accept foreign teams when it sees fit

the evidence shows this is the way to go

putting unrealistic hurdles on expansion teams means theyll never be ready for SL.

lets see if Stade Francaise get a SL team

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It's impossible to say it did nothing for them without seeing the difference had they just started up from scratch in Bridgend. If Celtic Crusaders started up from nothing and went straight to SL at Bridgend, for all we know they could have averaged 1,500 and those three years in the lower leagues could have proved pivotal. It's not conclusive in the slightest.

And as MD says, there is still time for it all to come crumbling down ala Paris St Germain, who also started off well. They got some really good crowds, but also went down to getting a 500 crowd vs Salford (worst in SL history), 1,000 against Wigan and 1,500 against Warrington.

theres also the chance they can grow like Les Catalans.

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Firstly, Crusaders attendances were always likely to dwindle after the first few matches - You get the "Heineken effect" with a lot of early froth which burns off. The key will be the retention rate of Welsh Wrexham area fans next year and the year after. The travelling hordes from Wigan, Warrington, St Helens and Widnes (in 2011 or 2012) will keep the club afloat in the way that certain Heartland clubs enjoy gate inflation due to the arrival of the fans from the above clubs the Rhinos and the two Hull clubs.

I can live with the overseas players in the Cru team at the moment - As with London in its early days you have to have a competitive side to make the franchise work. I would however like to see a five year plan to gradually make the club more Welsh year on year. The Cru have the coaching infrastructure and the juniors to make this a reality.

The club is in Wrexham, counted as part of Llanelli in RU terms so ripe for establishing League as the Rugby code in the area. And having recently been in South Wales recently on cricket duty I can confirm the Cru still get a fair shake in The South Wales Echo.

The only jarring note I have is that in my experience having been to Bridgend and Wrexham I felt the Cru fans in Bridgend were the more "rugby" oriented crowd of the two and I still harbour doubts about the long term commitment of the clubs owners to a successful RL club in Wales for when a downturn comes on and off the field will the owners stick with it or bail out. IMO the jury's out on this.

Top down expansion does not work - and I am a Quins ST holder who has watched the club since 1996. That said we have what we have, The Cru are here and every effort should be made to develop Welsh Rugby League regardless of how the club got where it is. It's here and RL fans should support it for the good of the game domestically and internationally.

Finanlly if I am clubless next year, I will be spending a few weekends up in the north west with the cousins so catching a few Cru games will be on the agenda. That's a good enough reason to keep the Cru going IMO ;)

you can always follow the dragons (st george) or the bunnies mate, instead of those godawful roosters ;)

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A few small points...

1. Crusaders obviously had little time to drum up support for season ticket sales due to the speed of their arrival in Wrexham. 2011 season tickets went on sale after Saints game.

2. Crusaders spent their advertising budget (as well as their merchandise budget I think) by May. So they have literally spent nothing in certain departments since then. I went to Crusaders v Bulls back in June and asked about the merchandise and I was told that most of their stock had been sold out, most things they had none of.

3. Crusaders haven't had the time or money to invest into North Wales (as opposed to Wrexham). No marketing of games has happened in North Wales. Next year things are hoping to improve with coaches from Gwynedd and Anglesey to Wrexham so that fans can travel. All Asda's and Tesco's across North Wales will stock Cru merchandise. No Sunday games. North Wales radio interested and BBC radio want to do English and Welsh commentary. My mate at Prifysgol Glyndwr was at the fans meeting and told me this stuff, it's all small but it all helps spread the word : )

4. My main worry is that Crusaders aren't sure if they want to be/should be: Wrexham Crusaders, North Wales Crusaders or Wales Crusaders. Personally I think they should stick to representing the north although

5. Most fans wanted Rodney Parade you know so the ideas not a dead duck. I saw Cas Tigers and there was just something lacking which I think would have been there if it had been at RP.

6. I think the attendence next year might be below this years because of the Leeds/Hull/Gareth-Catalan games. However I think we've got to say that as long as Crusaders get all their games at least 4500 with a 5500ish average then they've done really well. If they can add an extra 200 to that average every season then I think thats the way to go. They're reasonable targets which can be hit. But remember any talk about pulling the plug and fans certainly won't go, nobody'll support a team that won't be there next season!!

7. Finally we still haven't seen any Wales games since the Crusaders move. With games in Wrexham, Colwyn Bay and Neath; and perhaps a few Four Nations games in Wrexham or Cardiff in 2011 :P :P then it'll be all systeams go. The national team will certainly help the Cru!

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look i can do the funky maths too :

had they not moved the 2 games to neath their crowd average would be 6000

the RFL has learnt from the Celtic crusaders / wrexham thing, and also the pointless excercise that was toulose in the championship and will now accept foreign teams when it sees fit

the evidence shows this is the way to go

putting unrealistic hurdles on expansion teams means theyll never be ready for SL.

lets see if Stade Francaise get a SL team

It's not funky maths at all, it's facts. I purposely didn't include the Neath games because they aren't indicative to their likely crowd levels. You're including artificial crowds that they will find very difficult to recreate.

Since the beginning of the year their crowds have clearly dropped to a similar level to Celtic, that's a fact Dally.

You're repeating a mantra again without actually backing anything up with facts or reason. Who are you to say that the RFL have learned from the CC/Wrexham thing? If they have a brain all they have really learned is that CC weren't ready in the first place. Do you think Hunslet have a good grounding for Super League 2012?

Wrexham could easily still go either way. You've conveniently ignored the fact that we had a top down expansion that averaged far higher than Wrexham in their first year, yet didn't exist by the third.

It's far too early to be using Wrexham as conclusive proof that top down expansion works and it's dishonest to suggest that it works better than grassroots expansion. Especially when there are still many remnants of the previous 4 years in place, such as the youth policy which will provide better quality players sooner.

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A few small points...

1. Crusaders obviously had little time to drum up support for season ticket sales due to the speed of their arrival in Wrexham. 2011 season tickets went on sale after Saints game.

Do you know what price they are?

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4. My main worry is that Crusaders aren't sure if they want to be/should be: Wrexham Crusaders, North Wales Crusaders or Wales Crusaders. Personally I think they should stick to representing the north although

A lot of positive plans it seems.

I think they should stick to the North, the South shouldn't be given up on yet. SW Scorpions could yet provide a market down there.

6. I think the attendence next year might be below this years because of the Leeds/Hull/Gareth-Catalan games. However I think we've got to say that as long as Crusaders get all their games at least 4500 with a 5500ish average then they've done really well. If they can add an extra 200 to that average every season then I think thats the way to go. They're reasonable targets which can be hit. But remember any talk about pulling the plug and fans certainly won't go, nobody'll support a team that won't be there next season!!

This is inevitable because of the 3 early large crowds that were due to extreme circumstances. That's why quoting average attendances this year is just setting them up for a fall next year. If they manage to grow their core base next year to something like 4000 then they'll be doing well. If crowds continue to fall again, I fear the last line as RL is notoriously fickle at the best of times.

Edited by Maximus Decimus

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On the whole the move has been a positive one for Welsh Rugby League and the current Crusaders club is far stronger on and off the field than its predecessor.

However, there are two fairly major stumbling blocks that will need to be overcome if the clubs is to build on a postive first year in Wrexham:

1) The financial hangover form Celtic Crusaders is clearly an issue.

2) The instablity at Wrexham FC/Wrexham Village is a major threat.

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I have been a seaon ticket holder for Rugby League in South Wales since 2006. Sadly Crusaders in Bridgend was not successful and the town never supported it.

I have been to Wrexham once this year and was made very welcome. There was a much better atmosphere in Wrexham and I wish them every success in 2011. Hopefully the crowds will grow.

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It's not funky maths at all, it's facts. I purposely didn't include the Neath games because they aren't indicative to their likely crowd levels. You're including artificial crowds that they will find very difficult to recreate.

Since the beginning of the year their crowds have clearly dropped to a similar level to Celtic, that's a fact Dally.

You're repeating a mantra again without actually backing anything up with facts or reason. Who are you to say that the RFL have learned from the CC/Wrexham thing? If they have a brain all they have really learned is that CC weren't ready in the first place. Do you think Hunslet have a good grounding for Super League 2012?

Wrexham could easily still go either way. You've conveniently ignored the fact that we had a top down expansion that averaged far higher than Wrexham in their first year, yet didn't exist by the third.

It's far too early to be using Wrexham as conclusive proof that top down expansion works and it's dishonest to suggest that it works better than grassroots expansion. Especially when there are still many remnants of the previous 4 years in place, such as the youth policy which will provide better quality players sooner.

waiting for conclusive proof to satisfy you is like waiting for godot.

i think you have unrealistic expectations on expansion teams.

5000 is a fantastic average for an expansion team.

youll never get an expansion club developing in the championship to a level where it can match a heartland team

so if you dont have top down expansion you dont have expansion

putting unrealizable conditions on expansion teams is just another way of saying no to expansion and a league full only of m62 teams

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waiting for conclusive proof to satisfy you is like waiting for godot.

i think you have unrealistic expectations on expansion teams.

5000 is a fantastic average for an expansion team.

youll never get an expansion club developing in the championship to a level where it can match a heartland team

so if you dont have top down expansion you dont have expansion

putting unrealizable conditions on expansion teams is just another way of saying no to expansion and a league full only of m62 teams

Some proof would be nice, instead of absolute statements with nothing to back them up. Now you're changing the argument and putting words in my mouth.

PSG's average was an amazing average for an expansion team. I'll leave it at that.

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Some proof would be nice, instead of absolute statements with nothing to back them up. Now you're changing the argument and putting words in my mouth.

PSG's average was an amazing average for an expansion team. I'll leave it at that.

PSG worked fairly well in some cases. the problems were the players were also playing for LER clubs, a key aussie official keeping the club going was recalled to australia and the club having no gate money from tickets.

Gatehead also worked very well but the RFL didnt give them a fair share of Sky TV money.

even on your own analysis that wrexham are as strong as celtic crusaders, it still shows that top down wrexham are as good as bottom up CC.

and i think they are far stronger.

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Rugby League World - April 2017

League Express - Mon 10th April 2017