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Maximus Decimus

Trouble at Harlequins?

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Another club in the mire with money - good to see that the salary cap is still doing the job for which it was intended.

:rolleyes:

If you think about it, it's all Wigan's fault really... Lenegan this time, not uncle Mo. :D

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Jovial points aside, London RL is a long term problem, but one we have to carry on fighting to make work, compare it to an affliction (dare I say handicap) if need be, but it needs to be kept alive the best and smartest way possible. Thriving RL in London is a must.

It's no consolation to the Quins fans, but as an outsider, I could at least confidently say if the worst does happen, just about every one in that squad would find a good club. They're not poor players at Harlequins RL. Which is one ray of light.

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If you think about it, it's all Wigan's fault really... Lenegan this time, not uncle Mo. :D

I was talking to someone yesterday about this and how long it would take for Wigan to be blamed for all Quins' ills - even sooner than I thought by the sound of things - like they say there's many-a-true word been spoken in jest.

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I was talking to someone yesterday about this and how long it would take for Wigan to be blamed for all Quins' ills - even sooner than I thought by the sound of things - like they say there's many-a-true word been spoken in jest.

You know me, when it comes to big issues, in the words of Manuel, I know nothing. But I know a limp-ass joke when I see one... :unsure:

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Another club in the mire with money - good to see that the salary cap is still doing the job for which it was intended.

:rolleyes:

Since they scrapped 50% of turnover the cap's not been about that.

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Since they scrapped 50% of turnover the cap's not been about that.

Get ready for a few more to go the same way then.

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If the RFL are going to get seriously involved in this, then they've got to have a complete clear out and effectively start from scratch. As to location, the problem is, where? IF any soccer club would condescend to have us, the rent would be hideous, as they'd know we're desperate and have RFL loot behind us. Plus, at the risk of setting off gutterfax who's now appeared on this forum, a serious, LONG TERM marketing effort has to be made. What I'm afraid will happen is that they'll just do enough to keep the club tottering on until they've got the next Sky deal sown up (which in my cynical opinion is the only reason they've got involved now). After supporting the club from day one, including hauling out of bed on a Sunday morning to help put up goalposts with a category 4 (or possibly 5, I wasn't usually in a condition to count!) hangover, I'm wondering if it might not be time to call it a day :(

The important factor McDermott seems to agree with is the use of an SL club in the London area to stimulate the production of juniors playing RL in the area and aiming for a pro-career in it. Flatcaps will say that the juniors can be as well developed without a Celtic Crusaders or a Harlequins SL presence - they can have NL clubs like Skolars and Scorpions to aspire to and if any good they can sign on along the M62. What's your take as someone closer to the actualite as they say??

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Get ready for a few more to go the same way then.

Yes, but it won't be the much maligned Castleford or Wakefield. Harlequins may well move to Milton Keynes, but SL in London is finished (at least until another club builds up which Skolars don't look like doing but the increased London talent may well). Crusaders are looking shaky after a good start, but probably will be around at least a few more years, hopefully the sport takes off in Wrexham. Hull KR are in big debt, so may eventually hit problems.

Edited by bowes

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The important factor McDermott seems to agree with is the use of an SL club in the London area to stimulate the production of juniors playing RL in the area and aiming for a pro-career in it. Flatcaps will say that the juniors can be as well developed without a Celtic Crusaders or a Harlequins SL presence - they can have NL clubs like Skolars and Scorpions to aspire to and if any good they can sign on along the M62. What's your take as someone closer to the actualite as they say??

Considering the number of Quins players that have ended up at M62 clubs of late (even at Hull which in your view should merge with Hull KR in order to compete with Quins, Crusaders and Catalans), does anybody actually aspire to play for Quins?

A Northants lad has just signed up for SL's glamour side, who was he "stimulated" by because there isn't a SL club anywhere near the south Midlands.

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I've spoken before about my views of Harlequins not being a "real team" with a shared identity and a turbulent history, and so whilst this is sad news I really hope it puts an end to the Fulham/Crusaders/Broncos/Harlequins team. Honestly - as in Fulham/Crusaders/Broncos/Harlequins 1980-2010 RIP. What London needs is a new team to represent them in the Super League or the Championship.

The reason I'm saying Championship is in a city of 8 million and with so many aims, I think the key aims can be strengthened by having a Championship team and channeling effort into key areas. Lets look at some of the things a London Super League club is supposed to do...

A. Be an example for all London junior players that they can get to the top

B. Be part of the development of future London born rugby league players

C. Give London fans of the game a chance to see and support a team week in week out.

D. Teach the rules of the game to Londoners (I mean in a spectator sense not a player sense) and persuade them to become real fans of the game.

E. Gain media coverage in the city for the club and the game

F. Win matches and trophies.

Now Harlequins have been hitting... A, B and C. But have not been hitting D, E or F.

Due to the timescale that they have been involved in the league, surely it is time to concentrate on developing London players, and then once that is sorted (probably another 10 years), then concentrate on winning London fans and the London media over. You've got to admit that HRL do have a harder job than other Super League clubs as they get next to nothing local media coverage and it's full of people who don't even know the rules of the game let alone not just people who are simply not interested.

A Championship team would partly hit criteria A, hit B, hit C, won't hit D because lets face it SL is always going to appeal to people more than Championship games, I certainly don't think they'll lose the little of E they get, and well they could do well with F.

So yeh, personally I think a new professional London Championship side (setup in the same way as the SW Scorpions with the fans picking names, emblems, full of Londoners), the London Skolars and another new London team in Championship 1 or Conference National would be better for the London game than a failing Rugby Union Super League team. And it would be better for Super League which I really don't think 'needs' a team in the capital and of course it would free up another licence spot for Leigh or Toulouse or someone.

Just my take anyway.

Edit: Strangely stumbled upon this from 2001. Would seem London have always had trouble...

Edited by ShotgunGold

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Considering the number of Quins players that have ended up at M62 clubs of late (even at Hull which in your view should merge with Hull KR in order to compete with Quins, Crusaders and Catalans), does anybody actually aspire to play for Quins?

A Northants lad has just signed up for SL's glamour side, who was he "stimulated" by because there isn't a SL club anywhere near the south Midlands.

It's a good example of erm..... one.

Didn't Paul Grimes many many years ago also take a fancy to League from the far away Newcastle??

There's another.

That's two.

As for my views you could be kind enough to leave me to articulate them rather than apply your clumsy definitions to them.

Brian McDermott clearly thinks that Harelquins stimulate junior production in London, and that the removal of an SL club would be damaging, so I am inclined to keep that well in mind and bear towards his opinion rather than yours.

I'll also keep well in mind the extensive junior set up that was stimulated in south wales by crusaders.

And the lack of such set ups in areas where there is no professional RL presence with a mandate to create such junior systems.

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Lets look at some of the things a London Super League club is supposed to do...

A. Be an example for all London junior players that they can get to the top

B. Be part of the development of future London born rugby league players

C. Give London fans of the game a chance to see and support a team week in week out.

Now Harlequins have been hitting... A, B and C.

A Championship team would partly hit criteria A, hit B, hit C,

So yeh, personally I think a new professional London Championship sidewould be better for the London game than a failing Rugby Union Super League team. And it would be better for Super League which I really don't think 'needs' a team in the capital

Just my take anyway.

Thanks for that take. Much appreciated.

I wonder though is playing championship RL "getting to the top"???

How would a championship club manage to develop an extensive junior system? Have Skolars managed this for instance??

How many fans actually grasp the chance to watch a championship team in the north where's there's a deep culture of RL? How many london fans grasp the chance to watch Skolars now?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for championship clubs to be created across britain and in turn for them to stimulate lots of local Rugby kids to play RL rather than union, and the best can then pack suitcases and go to sign for someone along the M62. Then we'd have the whole of Britain producing quality RL players and us lot along the M62 can have the privelige of being able to go watch them all.

McDermotts thoughts seem to be that the withdrawal of Superleague from London will bust up a junior system that is probably as good as many northern clubs have. No doubt HRU, Wasps saracens etc will help bust it up......???

Thoughts from any of you London people?

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How the hell has Murdoch and News Ltd been good thing in Australia? It started the SL wars which cost us thousands of fans and is still felt today! It likely cost the game millions of dollars. Clubs like Balmain, Norths etc were forced to Merge. Souths were kicked out. The game was in a real mess thanks to News Ltd.

Then we have Gallop who has been a poor admin for the game and is just a puppet for News Ltd. Low TV Contracts, failure to do too much too stop players going elsewhere, His head in the sand attitude has cost us money and fans.

News Ltd promotes AFL over League for some reason despite League having way better TV attendances as well.

News Ltd made a real mess of running Melbourne Storm. It has made the game a laughing stock. And how can News Ltd be running the NRL and yet not know what was going on at the Storm which is also owned by the News Ltd? Gallop and News made a mess of the outcome of the storm. Honestly any team would be best staying away from News Ltd looking at the record of being involved in the game in Australia.

Sad for the few fans but maybe long term a good thing. Quins has been a disaster from the start that few Broncos fans bought in to. It has alienated many London fans. Maybe it will allow the club to reform in a way RL fans can identify with and the new club can be more of a London Community club than it is now

great post

AFL pay for favourable newspaper coverage thats why

gallop is doing the best he can with a sport which has gone from basket case to quite healthy

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The important factor McDermott seems to agree with is the use of an SL club in the London area to stimulate the production of juniors playing RL in the area and aiming for a pro-career in it. Flatcaps will say that the juniors can be as well developed without a Celtic Crusaders or a Harlequins SL presence - they can have NL clubs like Skolars and Scorpions to aspire to and if any good they can sign on along the M62. What's your take as someone closer to the actualite as they say??

Skolars couldn't take on the developement work - possibly a new Championship side might be an idea as we seem to be turning out players of that standard but whether there'd be the interest without a club in SL is an unknown quantity. As for our SL players going to Northern clubs, identifying their agent might be interesting!

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Possibly a new Championship side might be an idea as we seem to be turning out players of that standard but whether there'd be the interest without a club in SL is an unknown quantity.

To turn out players of an SL standard you need numbers, I'd guess if the "inspiration" for London kids to play Rugby was an old style London Broncos, playing before a few hundred out of somewhere like Barnet (and desperately trying not to drop to NL1) against the inspiration of Wasps, Saracens and Harlequins RU playing before 10,000 crowds and sometimes massive crowds at double headers it would be no contest.

Rugby would continue to mean Union to the kids, and without people playing the game in enough numbers, to me that would be that.

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Thanks for that take. Much appreciated.

I wonder though is playing championship RL "getting to the top"???

How would a championship club manage to develop an extensive junior system? Have Skolars managed this for instance??

How many fans actually grasp the chance to watch a championship team in the north where's there's a deep culture of RL? How many london fans grasp the chance to watch Skolars now?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for championship clubs to be created across britain and in turn for them to stimulate lots of local Rugby kids to play RL rather than union, and the best can then pack suitcases and go to sign for someone along the M62. Then we'd have the whole of Britain producing quality RL players and us lot along the M62 can have the privelige of being able to go watch them all.

McDermotts thoughts seem to be that the withdrawal of Superleague from London will bust up a junior system that is probably as good as many northern clubs have. No doubt HRU, Wasps saracens etc will help bust it up......???

Thoughts from any of you London people?

I seem to be in a minority with those I have discussed this with at Quins but I am not so sure

that playing outside of Super League and in the Championship would be a total disaster. Its certainly

not my preferred option but I would say they would keep the majority of the 2,000 or so hard core fans,

but only if they played in the London area. Fortunately as the junior game is pretty much embedded around

different areas of London I would say it will keep growing. Add to that the fact that a good few junior clubs

are catching the youngsters at a very early age as minis hopefully they will turn out to be "league" only players

as oposed to playing union in the off season, which was invariably the case a few years ago when I was involved.

Also I am not convinced that a lot of the prospective players of the future in London are necessarily aspiring to play for Quins as opposed to representing some of the bigger clubs around the m62. And until Quins become

a tad more glamorous ;) and start threatening to win a few games over a season on a regular basis I am not sure things there attitudes will change.

Edited by Spicer

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It's a good example of erm..... one.

Didn't Paul Grimes many many years ago also take a fancy to League from the far away Newcastle??

There's another.

That's two.

No, it is two just in recent years from Northampton. If you paid any attention whatsoever to rugby league outside the M62 that there are very many others.

As for my views you could be kind enough to leave me to articulate them rather than apply your clumsy definitions to them.

Brian McDermott clearly thinks that Harelquins stimulate junior production in London, and that the removal of an SL club would be damaging, so I am inclined to keep that well in mind and bear towards his opinion rather than yours.

What do you expect him to say? Quins are a waste of time and should be kicked out?

He is hardly likely to say that even if he believed it.

I'll also keep well in mind the extensive junior set up that was stimulated in south wales by crusaders.

And the lack of such set ups in areas where there is no professional RL presence with a mandate to create such junior systems.

That's because you aren't interested in those set-ups and don't take any trouble to find these things out for yourself. They exist but you haven't ever bothered to find out about them.

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I seem to be in a minority with those I have discussed this with at Quins but I am not so sure

that playing outside of Super League and in the Championship would be a total disaster. Its certainly

not my preferred option but I would say they would keep the majority of the 2,000 or so hard core fans,

but only if they played in the London area. Fortunately as the junior game is pretty much embedded around

different areas of London I would say it will keep growing. Add to that the fact that a good few junior clubs

are catching the youngsters at a very early age as minis hopefully they will turn out to be "league" only players

as oposed to playing union in the off season, which was invariably the case a few years ago when I was involved.

Also I am not convinced that a lot of the prospective players of the future in London are necessarily aspiring to play for Quins as opposed to representing some of the bigger clubs around the m62. And until Quins become

a tad more glamorous ;) and start threatening to win a few games over a season on a regular basis I am not sure things there attitudes will change.

Well that's an interesting view thanks, it's also as you say a "minority" view amongst London enthusiasts. Are you being optomistic - I don't know but suspect that London keeping a 2,000 crowd in the NL is if you don't mind me saying maybe quite optimistic??

I appreciate entirely that League kids in London will not always aspire to play for Quins - where they end up playing - wether at Saints, Quins, in France or in Rugby Union will be down to many factors including personal ones especially.

The free gangway allows kids to choose league, development officers, amateur clubs and volunteers, and pro clubs facilitate the interest and development, and the question remains wether a pro club helps boost numbers, as it's a numbers game. Sure we can have kids playing from Northampton to Newcastle and Cardiff to Croyden - sounds good - but numbers count.

Beyond a pro club helping local kids to aspire to the game how far does such a club stimulate schools to play RL, or adults who follow the pro club to start junior teams. I suspect the answer to this won't come from analysing Quins, but seeing how the M62 clubs get on raising numbers and standards now they have to do it as a franchise criteria.

The other London question remaining is wether the club underpin a higher level of SKY money and other RFL income - any views there, or thoughts you have come across from others?

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No, it is two just in recent years from Northampton. If you paid any attention whatsoever to rugby league outside the M62 that there are very many others. What do you expect him to say? Quins are a waste of time and should be kicked out? He is hardly likely to say that even if he believed it. That's because you aren't interested in those set-ups and don't take any trouble to find these things out for yourself. They exist but you haven't ever bothered to find out about them.

:( thanks for that.....

Can I take it that you believe Quins add no monetary value to RFL contracts, grants and sponsorships, and that the development of junior RL in London is improving at a pace that Quins have had no real bearing on?

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:( thanks for that.....

Can I take it that you believe Quins add no monetary value to RFL contracts, grants and sponsorships,

Pretty much

and that the development of junior RL in London is improving at a pace that Quins have had no real bearing on?

I'd say little bearing. Go onto the London RL site and check out which sides have teams in the London Junior / Mini League and / or the Chiltern League. Now get out a map and find all these boroughs / towns. The thing you will immediately notice is that London's RL "heartland" is East London / Essex / Kent as well as the St Albans / Hemel area to the north of London i.e. nowhere near Bronquins.

Now I know that Bronquins do help out the likes of South London Storm and West London Sharks in their immediate vicinity and they are both top clubs for producing young players but to say that Bronquins are the driving force behind London RL development is pushing it just a little bit too much. If they were you'd expect there to be more West / South West London clubs with juniors coming through.

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I think really, it's now down to how much the RFL are prepared to go in the bail out, and under what terms.

Something for juniors to aspire to is one thing, but surely they have to go watch and want to be part of it as well.

The free season ticket deal a year or so back showed they only wanted to play for their club side, not go watch S/L for nowt.

Honestly don't know what happens next.

How deep are the RFL pockets this time, what impact will Quins folding have on Juniors?(I suspect very little on the second bit if the development officers are still in place)

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I don't think the RFL should spend any money on bailing out any club, full stop. Otherwise the spending will never stop and will simply increase whatever antipathy might exist towards whichever club(s) are involved.

Should the RFL also contemplate bailing out Whitehaven, or is this simply too far-fetched to contemplate?

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I admit to being totally wrong about two Northants lads "making it" in RL.

After looking at Northampton Demons' website I find that in fact two of their lads are on the books at Bronquins; three at Sheffield Eagles and of course one lad has just signed for St Helens.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_leag...don/8952050.stm

I, along with another well known poster on this site, was with Ian last night after the game. He is a notherner who originally hails from Blackrod but now lives in London.

He is extremely passionate about the London game and thinks that Quins should stay where they are and continue the good work the club is doing locally.

It was refreshing to meet somebody in the media who is so pro Rugby League who has a chance, maybe, to get our sport the recognition it deserves.

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I admit to being totally wrong about two Northants lads "making it" in RL.

After looking at Northampton Demons' website I find that in fact two of their lads are on the books at Bronquins; three at Sheffield Eagles and of course one lad has just signed for St Helens.

:lol:

You should have quit whilst you were ahead.

Now you are completely over the top suggesting getting signed to an SL or NL academy side is "making it".

By your definition if a couple of hundred lads a year are "making it" then, we'll have the Aussies shivering.

Lets see who actually comes into SL and does the business....

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