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Severus

Manchester uni charging £9k tuition fees

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Anyway, I bet a night out with you and your mates is a real hoot as you overthrow the machinery of state. There's a lot for you to do and it won't come cheap.

My friends are a varied bunch from across all spectrums, and guess what? we have a great time.

Mockery again and not even good mockery 4/10 must try harder.

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So you are not concerned that the standard is set so low that just about anyone sitting two A levels can be accepted on to a degree course somewhere?

I reckon I could sit two A levels tomorrow, in subjects I didn't take the first time around, and still get a couple of Ds.

I very much doubt that. Did you take Maths, I could give you a few questions from the AS level syllabus if you'd like.

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Just found my notes from the recent seminars I took for my course I mentioned in an earlier post. These are the costs per year to study at uni in China and the US (according to Dr Zen Li, School of Education, Southampton Uni).

China: Tuition fees are designed to recover 24% of the average cost per student per year. At Beijing, it is between 4200-6000 yuan. This correlates to 56% of the annual income of a family from urban areas and a WHOPPING 109% of the annual income for a family in the countryside!!!!!

US: Average cost per year per student at a State University (Public Sector) is $12000 (£7500). That increases to $27500 (£17000) at a Private University (Harvard is $35000, which is nearly £21800).

Now to put this into perspective, 20 million Chinese attended university in 2005 and 17.5 million attended in the US, all this despite tuition fees being huge and participation numbers are still increasing. If the Chinese and US are able to educate their youth and be economically competitive depsite such high fees, then so can the UK.

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By violent disorder I mean the working class using violence to to destroy the class apparatus of the ruling class, see Russia 1905 and 1918, Germany 1919-1923 Spain 1933-1938 China 1926-1939 Hungary 1956 Cuba 1959 Nicaragua 1979.

Have you got any examples with a slightly more successful outcome?

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well it would be an improvement on first time around

You should be doing standup. Not only that, you got a positive rating for it.

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I very much doubt that. Did you take Maths, I could give you a few questions from the AS level syllabus if you'd like.

Yes I did maths. Of course I did maths. However, that probably wouldn't be one of my choices for these 2 A levels tomorrow. I believe they've invented a lot of new numbers since. :smile:

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US: Average cost per year per student at a State University (Public Sector) is $12000 (£7500). That increases to $27500 (£17000) at a Private University (Harvard is $35000, which is nearly £21800).

Can you post the raw data? Those figures look a little funny to me, there; Harvard tuition is more than $35k, but a hell of a lot of the students there get financial aid from the university for example.

Tuition fees are $40k+ where I work, but I've never met anyone who actually pays that.

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Have you got any examples with a slightly more successful outcome?

No

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Thought not :smile:

So we keep trying, do you think capitalism was born fully formed and without struggle?

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So we keep trying, do you think capitalism was born fully formed and without struggle?

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Si vis pacem, para bellum

sorry i can't speak latin and can't be arsed googling it

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Can you post the raw data? Those figures look a little funny to me, there; Harvard tuition is more than $35k, but a hell of a lot of the students there get financial aid from the university for example.

Tuition fees are $40k+ where I work, but I've never met anyone who actually pays that.

Where do you work out of interest?

I don't have access to the raw data, just what was presented to us via PowerPoint. The breakdown at Harvard for 2010/11 was:

Tuition - $34,976

Health Services Fee - $1,166

Students Services Fee - $2,273

Room - $7,525

Board - $4,783

Subtotal - 50,723

We discussed at the length the idea of scholarships, financial aid etc. I think these are great schemes. Not sure how something similar could be set up in the UK considering how much private universities in the US receive from private gifts/grants (19% according to 2003 US Digest of Education Stats)?

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Where do you work out of interest?

I don't have access to the raw data, just what was presented to us via PowerPoint. The breakdown at Harvard for 2010/11 was:

Tuition - $34,976

Health Services Fee - $1,166

Students Services Fee - $2,273

Room - $7,525

Board - $4,783

Subtotal - 50,723

We discussed at the length the idea of scholarships, financial aid etc. I think these are great schemes. Not sure how something similar could be set up in the UK considering how much private universities in the US receive from private gifts/grants (19% according to 2003 US Digest of Education Stats)?

Is that the 'non resident' tuition fee? This more than doubled the cost when I was at Berkeley.

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Where do you work out of interest?

Here: https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/costs/cost.shtml

I don't have access to the raw data, just what was presented to us via PowerPoint. The breakdown at Harvard for 2010/11 was:

Tuition - $34,976

Health Services Fee - $1,166

Students Services Fee - $2,273

Room - $7,525

Board - $4,783

Subtotal - 50,723

That looks suspiciously like the "standard" costs, which I'm not sure include scholarship and financial aid etc. I could well be wrong, though - I'm not well versed in this stuff.

If my hunch is right, describing it as an "average" cost (cf your previous posts on the costs in China and the USA) can be very misleading.

We discussed at the length the idea of scholarships, financial aid etc. I think these are great schemes.

They would be, if the costs weren't so flaming high in the first place!

There are some serious problems with the system in the USA; I know a girl who sailed into Harvard, Stanford, Brown and others - but couldn't go, as she couldn't afford it. However, her father is wealthy; despite being estranged from him for quite some time, she didn't qualify for financial assistance as the means testing said no due to her father being wealthy. She can't get sufficient student loans, as she has nobody to countersign them. She's 21, and classed as a dependent until she's 24

Net result? One of the smartest, hardest working people I've ever met (she was holding down 3 jobs as well as studying full time at a state university to try to make ends meet) had to drop out of tertiary education because she just couldn't make it work financially.

That's scandalous, in my opinion, particularly when you see universities bragging about increasing their endowments by millions each year. And a lot of that is cash - it's not like Oxbridge, who are wealthy on paper but much of it is tied up in land.

Not sure how something similar could be set up in the UK considering how much private universities in the US receive from private gifts/grants (19% according to 2003 US Digest of Education Stats)?

Why the hell would you want such a system? Seriously, what do you think is the advantage? There's an enormous number of universities over here, pretty much all charging. How many of those places do you think are really worth attending? Do you see the parallel, here?

Many students, even if they can get the required money together in the first place (scholarships etc don't really cover it all), are financially crippled for decades afterwards paying off the student loans etc.

I disagree with your earlier view that it's a good model system for HE. It has some interesting advantages in principle, and in practice in some cases, but it does a great job of messing lots of people up.

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So we keep trying, do you think capitalism was born fully formed and without struggle?

Capitalism may be to blame for the lack of life on the planet Mars, Venezuela's socialist President Hugo Chavez said on Tuesday.

"I have always said, heard, that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars, but maybe capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived and finished off the planet," Chavez said in speech to mark World Water Day.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/22/us-venezuela-chavez-mars-idUSTRE72L61D20110322

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Bishop Grosseteste University: £7,500

Right, I'm off to get a BA in 'Drama in the Community'.

I wonder if they do degrees in 'Drama in the Community' in Japan, or Korea, or China, or India.

So we're in agreement; not just the very top universities will be charging the full £9k. So either the government are extremely incompetent in not foreseeing this would inevitably happen, or they lied.

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So we're in agreement; not just the very top universities will be charging the full £9k. So either the government are extremely incompetent in not foreseeing this would inevitably happen, or they lied.

To jump in before JohnM :P those Universities seeking to charge the full £9k will be subject to government approval.

I have heard no word about what my institution wants to charge. I would be surprised if we didn't go for the full amount. Although was are an ex-poly we more than satisfy the public enagement and WP criteria as specified by the government.

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So we're in agreement; not just the very top universities will be charging the full £9k. So either the government are extremely incompetent in not foreseeing this would inevitably happen, or they lied.

...or, more likely, they have a plan to oversee the demise of the like of Bishop Grosseteste University.

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Capitalism may be to blame for the lack of life on the planet Mars, Venezuela's socialist President Hugo Chavez said on Tuesday.

"I have always said, heard, that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars, but maybe capitalism arrived there, imperialism arrived and finished off the planet," Chavez said in speech to mark World Water Day.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/22/us-venezuela-chavez-mars-idUSTRE72L61D20110322

:lol:

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...or, more likely, they have a plan to oversee the demise of the like of Bishop Grosseteste University.

That local to us, and I can never see that name in print without some grotesque image being conjured up.

Be that as it may, it is time for the Govt and OFFA to act and smack these chancers down. Even better, put Eric Pickles and Michael O'Leary in charge.

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If my hunch is right, describing it as an "average" cost (cf your previous posts on the costs in China and the USA) can be very misleading.

Why the hell would you want such a system? Seriously, what do you think is the advantage? There's an enormous number of universities over here, pretty much all charging. How many of those places do you think are really worth attending? Do you see the parallel, here?

I disagree with your earlier view that it's a good model system for HE. It has some interesting advantages in principle, and in practice in some cases, but it does a great job of messing lots of people up.

Hmm, that's interesting about the "average" cost. The lecturer never mentioned anything about non-resident costs etc. He'll get quizzes about that next time we have a residential week at Southampton!

I didn't mean the UK should have the exact same educational model as the US; the fees are way too high and financially crippling in the private sector. The public sector universities 'alledgedly' charge roughly the same costs as many of the UK uiversities want to. So I was referring to the principle of helping students through their studies via scholarship, grants etc as a good model (a busy day at work is my excuse for being illiterate!! :tongue: ). Our lecturer said these are still given to public sector students. Is this the case?

To all of you working out in the university sector, what is your take on wider participation and government targets? Are they too high? Will 50% have a good impact on the economy? I have my own opinions on it but it will be interesting to hear your view points. Any information would be useful before I tackle my essay...

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To jump in before JohnM :P those Universities seeking to charge the full £9k will be subject to government approval.

quite. Time for these Chancellors of Vice to be slapped down. They are just trying it on in the hope that by the time OFFA get round to doing something, it'll be too late.

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