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gingerjon

Tour de France cyclists

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So, just to confirm, there are two kinds: those who have been caught and those who haven't.

The doping rules are ridiculous.

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in Lances era yes. I think if they were to give his titles to riders who have not subsequently served drugs bans or been implicated in doping they'd need to go a long way down the GC

I have much more confidence they are clean now but there are probably still ways and means

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There was no way Armstrong could win the USADA case. they had no evidence and were just basing the whole thing on rumour and innuendo. it was pretty much a done deal that they would find him guilty. The simple fact is that he has never failed a drugs test, and there is no hard evidence to show that he has ever taken drugs.

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Read Lance Armstrong statement here: http://lancearmstron...-august-23-2012

and a Guardian piece here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/may/23/uci-tyler-hamilton-lance-armstrong-drugs

and what do you make of this? World Anti-Doping Agency president John Fahey says Lance Armstrong's decision not to contest doping charges against him is an admission the allegations "have substance to them".

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There was no way Armstrong could win the USADA case. they had no evidence and were just basing the whole thing on rumour and innuendo. it was pretty much a done deal that they would find him guilty. The simple fact is that he has never failed a drugs test, and there is no hard evidence to show that he has ever taken drugs.

there is evidence to suggest that he has failed tests. he just found a way to suppress it getting in to the public domain

this is a whole can of worms as it basically implicates the sports governing body, the UCI, who even as recently as a couple of weeks ago were publicly siding with Armstrong

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-case-against-armstrong-could-damage-uci-ashenden-says

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there is evidence to suggest that he has failed tests.

what evidence?

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what evidence?

in the link

in mym opinion the amount of circumstancial evidence is too great to ignore. This includes Dr Michael Ashenden and the guys from Science in Sport.

The wattages Armstrong was outputting are way above and beyond what is thought as humanly possible and way above what Wiggins et al produced this year

Cycling must be one of the few sports where performance has dropped as time has gone on

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The witnesses referred to in the link are former dopers who have been promised leniency by USADA if the testify against Armstrong. hardly the most credible of witnesses.

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I am not a fan of Lance Armstrong. The US Dollar bought him domestiques who were potential and actual tour winners in their own rights.

However: -

- He never came across as a particularly nice person. This may have an influence in how many former team-mates are prepared to testify that he took drugs.

- My next door neighbour has had leukaemia and is likely to have to take medication ("drugs") for the rest of his life. Lance Armstrong won most of his big races after he had recovered from cancer, and presumably has a similar requirement. This may or may not have been a factor in any drug-test readings that he subsequently recorded.

- The current drug-testing regime is nowhere near perfect. Alexandro Valverde and Alexander Vinokourov were banned without being caught with drugs in their system and Alberto Contador was banned for being caught in a race in France with a miniscule amount of clenbuterol in his system ... if he had been racing in another country, he would probably not have been banned.

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i

Cycling must be one of the few sports where performance has dropped as time has gone on

Agreed, but women's athletics is in a similar boat and doesn't get the same bad press.

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I have much more confidence they are clean now but there are probably still ways and means

I seriously doubt you can be a top level athlete in any sport without taking a whole bunch of drugs and supplements to keep you there. For something as demanding as the Tour de France it is an obvious impossibility.

The line between legal and illegal is arbitrary and pointless.

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http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates.html

I reckon anyone with an interest in cycling should have a scout around this website. This is just one article and doesn't really state anything conclusive but its very interesting all the same and there are a lot of articles that infer doping was rife

The interesting thing will be where the UCI go from here, especially Pat McQuaid who said cycling didn't have a problem

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I seriously doubt you can be a top level athlete in any sport without taking a whole bunch of drugs and supplements to keep you there. For something as demanding as the Tour de France it is an obvious impossibility.

The line between legal and illegal is arbitrary and pointless.

Correct. Having a painkilling injection etc to allow you to carry on in an impact sport when ordinarily you could not

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Let them all cheat and take whatever they like, get the Tour de France over with in a week instead of three.

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The wattages Armstrong was outputting are way above and beyond what is thought as humanly possible and way above what Wiggins et al produced this year

Cycling must be one of the few sports where performance has dropped as time has gone on

Exactly. Check out the youtube videos of Armstrong climbing the Hautacam or Apes d'Huez and compare them to this years tour. Either the guy was exceptional or he was doping.

I have literally just finished reading his second book, Every Second Counts which chronicles his Tour wins in 2001 to 2003 and talks a lot about the doping allegations and of course Armstrong strongly denies any wrong doing. His decision to not contest this latest accusation to me suggests that he is guilty of doping and that giving up the fight may be the least damaging option. According to rumours George Hincapie is one of the 10 who has given evidence against him.

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Agreed, but women's athletics is in a similar boat and doesn't get the same bad press.

Not many people think that the women's athletics records set by East Germans are valid. They just don't seem to want to talk about it.

Some East German athletes have formally asked for their own World records to be expunged as part of a lawsuit they are pursuing for compensation. Many of them have severe, long term illnesses.

The story of Heidi, now Andreas, Krieger is particularly sad.

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Exactly. Check out the youtube videos of Armstrong climbing the Hautacam or Apes d'Huez and compare them to this years tour. Either the guy was exceptional or he was doping.

I have literally just finished reading his second book, Every Second Counts which chronicles his Tour wins in 2001 to 2003 and talks a lot about the doping allegations and of course Armstrong strongly denies any wrong doing. His decision to not contest this latest accusation to me suggests that he is guilty of doping and that giving up the fight may be the least damaging option. According to rumours George Hincapie is one of the 10 who has given evidence against him.

he was a hero to me. i read his books and watched you tube again and again. The off road corner, the look on alpe d'huez, the duel with pantani.

one of the most trusted men in cycling is Jonathan Vaughters and i'm led to believe he's one of the 10 too

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Something for everyone in this, though the RFL have yet to be implicated.

Just because he is not continuing with court action does not mean he is guilty. Dangerous ground I reckon for that to be assumed.

However, a guy I used to work with, a competitive cyclist for many years, reckoned Armstrong could not achieve the level of performance that he did without say blood doping or EPO or such like.

One thing is sure...there is a shortage of verifiable facts but lost of scores being settled, personal agendas being worked out etc. This ain't over yet!

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Not many people think that the women's athletics records set by East Germans are valid. They just don't seem to want to talk about it.

The US women's team broke the 4x100 East German record this Olympics.

I think people are still a bit too stunned to talk through the implications of that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19219381

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he was a hero to me. i read his books and watched you tube again and again. The off road corner, the look on alpe d'huez, the duel with pantani.

one of the most trusted men in cycling is Jonathan Vaughters and i'm led to believe he's one of the 10 too

I've only gotten into cycling in the last two years so missed Armstrong's era. However I did admire and respect him and considered him one of the greatest cyclists of all time. This morning my first thought was 'say it isn't so'.

He will most definitely be stripped of his Tour titles (the USADA cannot do that despite what many news outlets are saying). It does make me wonder whether the likes of Eddie Merckx doped (a very distinct possibility as the practice was widespread at the time) and whether the Tour records are worth bothering with.

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Something for everyone in this, though the RFL have yet to be implicated.

Farce! ;)

Just because he is not continuing with court action does not mean he is guilty. Dangerous ground I reckon for that to be assumed.

However, a guy I used to work with, a competitive cyclist for many years, reckoned Armstrong could not achieve the level of performance that he did without say blood doping or EPO or such like.

One thing is sure...there is a shortage of verifiable facts but lost of scores being settled, personal agendas being worked out etc. This ain't over yet!

all of this is true

like i said the suggestions are that this goes to the very top of cycling

Armstrong did a lot to make road cycling mainstream in the US

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The US women's team broke the 4x100 East German record this Olympics.

I think people are still a bit too stunned to talk through the implications of that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ympics/19219381

If the US team are on some kind of performance enhancing drug then you just have to hope that they are on something with less drastic side effects than the East Germans and that the athletes are aware of what they are doing and are making an informed choice.

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Let them all cheat and take whatever they like, get the Tour de France over with in a week instead of three.

I don't know. We've had quite a few rugby league players banned for the use of nandrolone, HGH, cocaine, ephedrine and the like. Most of them were still rubbish.

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If the US team are on some kind of performance enhancing drug then you just have to hope that they are on something with less drastic side effects than the East Germans and that the athletes are aware of what they are doing and are making an informed choice.

None of them have the 'classic' look that keyboard experts tell you to look out for - and they don't seem particularly pumped in a scary way. I'm inclined to believe they're taking what everyone else is and just happen to have combined for a note-perfect sprint relay.

My dad did actually once visit one of the places where East Germany 'trained' its athletes. In many ways the drugs weren't even half the problem.

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