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marshy1

Warrington it is.

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It's not just swinton though is it? Loads of clubs will be doing this.

Even whoever demonuk supports. No point attacking swinton in our own right..this is a rugby league in general debate.

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It's not just swinton though is it? Loads of clubs will be doing this.

Even whoever demonuk supports. No point attacking swinton in our own right..this is a rugby league in general debate.

Apart from 3/4 clubs i think the rest of the champ will down this route

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Fev, Leigh, Sheffield and Fax I would assume. Maybe even Batley.

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Assuming we'll be able to use their conditioners etc, it could be a really good partnership if taken seriously by all parties.

It's all well and good saying that we should be developing our own players, but is that going to keep us in the Championship? It's not really a sport for sentiment, especially not in the Championship. Do we really think that if Karl Ashall, Neil Holland or any of our young players had an outstanding season and ripped up the Chmpionship (A-la chris Hill 2010/11, Leigh - Warrington), that they'd stick around with Swinton because we helped them develop into the best players they can be? I very much doubt it, they'd thank us and probably look back at their time with us in good spirits, but that doesn't help Swinton Lions.

We have heard all the supposed off-field benefits of this sort of arrangement before, with Saints in 2007. None of it actually happened. I remain to be convinced that the story will be any different this time. There is a massive difference between engineering opportunities for Paul Kidd to hob nob with Daniel Anderson / Tony Smith, versus doing the relatively unglamorous hard work that is inescapable if the club is to ever properly grow.

Your second paragraph gets to the heart of the issue. It also demonstrates the key problem pervading in too many places across RL at the moment. This being, clubs being totally cynical in their attitude towards player value, to the point some clubs virtually see themselves as bystanders when it comes to player performance. Looking upon the players as nothing more than disposable commodities, there to be bought and sold at will, like cattle.

On this basis, no person in any sort of employment anywhere would ever receive any sort of training and development, on the basis that they may better themselves (what a shocking thought!) and ultimately leave. Its a culture for backwards-looking companies who lack confidence in their own future, dictates nobody ever goes beyond the call of duty, everyone focusses purely on what money is on offer, and rarely does anyone feel inspired to perform to their best.

Evidence is plentiful to show that the performance of players is a product of the environment that surrounds them. To get a team performing to its best consistently, the players need to be bought into an overall concept of what the club is trying to do, the brand and community that is being represented, to ultimately give true pride in their performance. If there is no context beyond money, you will never get the best out of people.

Its a big reason why Swinton Lions languished in the lower reaches of Championship One for so long, despite being relatively big spenders in that league. Players came in and took the money, that was all it meant to them to play for the Lions. Things improved greatly under Steve McCormack and the improvement was immediate, showing that he at least understands what it takes to motivate players. However there is only so much that a coach can do if the message from the top of the club is that it doesn't really value its own players.

So it is wrong to assume that simply because a handful of dual registered players might become available it will definitely lead to an improvement in performance of the team. There is a significant risk of it destroying that hard won team spirit, potentially a big negative.

The club needs to be very careful indeed that it doesn't push dual reg too far.

It also needs to recognise a partnership in itself will not deliver anything much beyond dual-reg players unless the club is prepared to put proper resources into applying the lessons.

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We have heard all the supposed off-field benefits of this sort of arrangement before, with Saints in 2007. None of it actually happened. I remain to be convinced that the story will be any different this time. There is a massive difference between engineering opportunities for Paul Kidd to hob nob with Daniel Anderson / Tony Smith, versus doing the relatively unglamorous hard work that is inescapable if the club is to ever properly grow.

Your second paragraph gets to the heart of the issue. It also demonstrates the key problem pervading in too many places across RL at the moment. This being, clubs being totally cynical in their attitude towards player value, to the point some clubs virtually see themselves as bystanders when it comes to player performance. Looking upon the players as nothing more than disposable commodities, there to be bought and sold at will, like cattle.

On this basis, no person in any sort of employment anywhere would ever receive any sort of training and development, on the basis that they may better themselves (what a shocking thought!) and ultimately leave. Its a culture for backwards-looking companies who lack confidence in their own future, dictates nobody ever goes beyond the call of duty, everyone focusses purely on what money is on offer, and rarely does anyone feel inspired to perform to their best.

Evidence is plentiful to show that the performance of players is a product of the environment that surrounds them. To get a team performing to its best consistently, the players need to be bought into an overall concept of what the club is trying to do, the brand and community that is being represented, to ultimately give true pride in their performance. If there is no context beyond money, you will never get the best out of people.

Its a big reason why Swinton Lions languished in the lower reaches of Championship One for so long, despite being relatively big spenders in that league. Players came in and took the money, that was all it meant to them to play for the Lions. Things improved greatly under Steve McCormack and the improvement was immediate, showing that he at least understands what it takes to motivate players. However there is only so much that a coach can do if the message from the top of the club is that it doesn't really value its own players.

So it is wrong to assume that simply because a handful of dual registered players might become available it will definitely lead to an improvement in performance of the team. There is a significant risk of it destroying that hard won team spirit, potentially a big negative.

The club needs to be very careful indeed that it doesn't push dual reg too far.

It also needs to recognise a partnership in itself will not deliver anything much beyond dual-reg players unless the club is prepared to put proper resources into applying the lessons.

Great post

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What hasn't been mentioned in this debate is player recruitment. We are going to lose a good proportion of our current squad and they are going to have to be replaced, but from where? The better class players will and are already going to the top clubs in the championship leaving scarce resources for the rest, also remembering that four more clubs will be joining this coming season, all wanting to strengthen there squads. there just isn't enough players of quality to go around. If we can build a competitive team based around d/reg players from Warrington and climb the table. Maybe next year it will put us in a better position to compete for the better players, just a thought?

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It's a fair point Glenn,.We do not have the resources to compete consistently with the top teams in the championship.There is little doubt that an influx of Warrington players would strengthen us considerably and hopefully this would be reflected in our results.Ultimately most fans want to see a winning team which would increase our fan base and hopefully increase revenue for the club.

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The other thing in all this is what would fans be saying if Swinton did nothing and sat back, relegation a possibility. I just wonder how many would be happy we hadn't had a link up then.?

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I just hope that common sense prevails and we don't see teams fielding a ridiculous number of players from their affiliated Super League clubs.Whilst the RFL have issued a directive on this maybe the Championship clubs themselves could reach some kind of agreement.

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So we agree Phil that if the partnership is taken seriously, then it could be of great benefit to the club? (And I believe it's not just dual reg, but use of certain facilities and coaching methods).

I wouldn't neccessarily say all such clubs were "backwards-thinking". Should we offer them more money to keep them? That would lead to complete player power. These lads have to earn a living, if Leigh or Featherstone, or anyone can offer them significantly more money then why would they stay at Swinton? Team spirit wouldn't, that's just not plausible.

I'd also say it's harsh to state that we had no team spirit before Steve Mac turned up. There's a fair few players that are still with us from before that, Watto, Hurst, Daz and Richie Hawkyard, Reay, etc. And the P/O run In 2006 was pretty much all team spirit.

The job has to be done off the field for top players to want to come and stay at the club. But in the short term, we have to ensure our safety in the Championship. The D/R players, if used correctly, will help us do that.

I know that the lads that came into the club on D/R had a great rapport with the players signed onto Swinton's cards. And I agree that it would be foolish to have too many come in. But 4-5 wouldn't be too bad would it?

To be fair, it's going to happen whether we like it or not, hopefully it'll work out the best for Swinton, Championship status is a must.

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At some points this season with our injury problems going into big games,we would have loved an extra couple of D/R players. Lets not forget they will give 100% as they are playing for their futures in the game. Players such as Forster actually loved playing for Swinton this year, you can tell from his Tweets etc. What makes them anything other than a Swinton player??

If we signed 4 players from Halifax on one year contracts, i don't think people would be this critical.

Lets give it a chance before snapping its neck.

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Yet again short-termist thinking rules the roost, the rugby league disease. Everyone (including management at various Championship clubs) gets fixated on the possibility of the arrival of a few new players, but is that really the overall effect?

There is nothing to prevent "use of certain facilities and coaching methods" anyway. You don't need a formal partnership to achieve that. If a Championship club wishes to develop itself by mimicking what happens in Super League that can be done already. Swinton Lions shouldn't need to take notes off Warrington to determine where it can improve itself. I could give you a long list of worthwhile improvements right now!

A formal partnership of this nature is not going to force any Super League club to do anything against its voluntary will, to assist the Championship club. The Super League club will only go so far as it wants to. So in aspects other than dual reg players, there is no value in partnering. You could do it anyway. Tony Smith is an open minded guy, just ring him up.

The concept of partnering has not come about to help Championship clubs. Its all about the self interest of SL clubs, a majority of whom want to cut their cost base and see this as a way so to do, while also retaining the registrations of a generation of young players whom would otherwise have to be promoted to first team level or released.

So perhaps the true effect is that the best of the players that would've been released from SL and gravitated towards the Championship anyway, and become bone fide Championship players, are now only going to be available as dual reg.

This way the SL clubs get to have their cake and eat it. To some extent they will be able to dictate selection policy to the Championship club, as we saw last season with Forster coming and going as it suited Saints. If a player does well or the SL suffers injuries, players will disappear overnight, to the whim of the SL club. They don't want to spend the money on these young players anymore, but they still want first dibs.

In fairness to Warrington, it is a club that has taken development of young players seriously for a number of years and I suspect they would probably have preferred to stick with the old system but it has been forced upon them due to weaknesses elsewhere in SL.

There are a number of risks from a Swinton Lions perspective. These need to be recognised and managed, which will require some insightful judgements. The track record of not only Swinton Lions but also other clubs generally shows that short-termism and self interest nearly always rule the roost when it comes to such strategic decisions. The impact is nearly always negative in the long run.

I prefer the way football does these things. Yes the big clubs loan out promising youngsters to get experience, but its done as loans. The rules surrounding loans in football seem much better designed in protecting the sanctity of competition and each club's unique identity.

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Unless you follow Watford hey Phil? ;) (not to spark a football related debate).

If we could employ the rules football use then I think it would also be beneficial. 10 players is extreme, but we'll have to see what happens. I don't think Steve Mac will want a team full of Warrington players and I'm under the impression that it wouldn't be forced upon him. I'd like to think not anyway!

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Unless you follow Watford hey Phil? ;) (not to spark a football related debate).

If we could employ the rules football use then I think it would also be beneficial. 10 players is extreme, but we'll have to see what happens. I don't think Steve Mac will want a team full of Warrington players and I'm under the impression that it wouldn't be forced upon him. I'd like to think not anyway!

Well it does make you wonder, i mean theres only been 2 resignings/signings upto now when other champ clubs are well underway into next yrs squad

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I think short termism could be used to describe some of the views on here too

We are killing this idea with criticism before its even had chance to be tried.

Who knows how it will work out?

How often did the club get criticised for not making dual reg signings early last season by the very same people who now think it's a bad thing.

How often do the club get criticised for doing nothing?

Now we do something, publicise it and guess what...it's wrong!

I for one have reservations and can see benefits as well.

Like I said before every club will be in this position. We are in it with the best club in Britain. Lets give it a chance.

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That's fair comment Mark,I just hope common sense prevails with the amount of Warrington players that are used.

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Yet again short-termist thinking rules the roost, the rugby league disease. Everyone (including management at various Championship clubs) gets fixated on the possibility of the arrival of a few new players, but is that really the overall effect?

There is nothing to prevent "use of certain facilities and coaching methods" anyway. You don't need a formal partnership to achieve that. If a Championship club wishes to develop itself by mimicking what happens in Super League that can be done already. Swinton Lions shouldn't need to take notes off Warrington to determine where it can improve itself. I could give you a long list of worthwhile improvements right now!

A formal partnership of this nature is not going to force any Super League club to do anything against its voluntary will, to assist the Championship club. The Super League club will only go so far as it wants to. So in aspects other than dual reg players, there is no value in partnering. You could do it anyway. Tony Smith is an open minded guy, just ring him up.

The concept of partnering has not come about to help Championship clubs. Its all about the self interest of SL clubs, a majority of whom want to cut their cost base and see this as a way so to do, while also retaining the registrations of a generation of young players whom would otherwise have to be promoted to first team level or released.

So perhaps the true effect is that the best of the players that would've been released from SL and gravitated towards the Championship anyway, and become bone fide Championship players, are now only going to be available as dual reg.

This way the SL clubs get to have their cake and eat it. To some extent they will be able to dictate selection policy to the Championship club, as we saw last season with Forster coming and going as it suited Saints. If a player does well or the SL suffers injuries, players will disappear overnight, to the whim of the SL club. They don't want to spend the money on these young players anymore, but they still want first dibs.

In fairness to Warrington, it is a club that has taken development of young players seriously for a number of years and I suspect they would probably have preferred to stick with the old system but it has been forced upon them due to weaknesses elsewhere in SL.

There are a number of risks from a Swinton Lions perspective. These need to be recognised and managed, which will require some insightful judgements. The track record of not only Swinton Lions but also other clubs generally shows that short-termism and self interest nearly always rule the roost when it comes to such strategic decisions. The impact is nearly always negative in the long run.

I prefer the way football does these things. Yes the big clubs loan out promising youngsters to get experience, but its done as loans. The rules surrounding loans in football seem much better designed in protecting the sanctity of competition and each club's unique identity.

Well Phil I am suitably impressed that you now know Tony Smith on a personal level that you can just ring him up and he talks all thing rugby.

Can I ask you a question, would you prefer that Swinton don't register any dual registered player and end up possibly back in championship 1 or that they accept an offer from possiblyone of the best super league clubs at the moment whereby we get use of there better squad players.I do agree with you that the number allowed should be restricted especially in terms of the teams put out on the pitch each game. Like it or not the facts are Swinton at the present moment in time don't have the resources to operate a second team and even if Agecroft was built and we were in it I doubt they would, yes we can ask the clubs if we can sign these players on either as full Swinton players or full season loan players but you know as well as I do their parent club won't agree and most likely prefer the dual registration system wherby they can call them back at a minutes notice. But then didn't we have a couple of players on loan last year one of which we brought back prematurely so the loan system isn't adequate either and the same situation happens in soccer.

I also think you should be taken to task regarding your disgraceful comment regarding Paul Kidd and him " Engineering an opportunity to hob nob with the liikes of Daniel Anderson and Tony Smith " do you actually know that he has met either.? You are the first to get on your high horse when comments are rendered against you on here yet you readily post such rubbish. Do you not think that Paul will already know these guys through his Sky sport /rugby connections any way and therefore wouldn't need to engineer anything to allow him to talk to them.

Our own current coach Steve Mc is on record as saying he feels the link will be invaluable to Swinton....do you think he is engineering anything.!!

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Because it states that up to 10 dual reg players can be used does not mean we will use that many. It will be up to Steve how many he wants to play, he might only want to play a couple,but the option is there for him to use more as and when he needs them , eg. if we are stuggling with injuries, surely this as got to benefit us to be able to keep a strong squad throughout the campaign. Yes it as got its negatives and positives but lets stop this snipeing and give it a chance .Don't bring the likes of Fev Halifax and Leigh into the equation they don't need d/reg players , they can sign the best available players b ecause of there positions of strength and stability in the championship.To get to that position we need to be up there with them and competing on the same terms,this d/reg deal might just give us the chance to do this.Give it a chance if it dosn't work then and only then slate it

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Because it states that up to 10 dual reg players can be used does not mean we will use that many. It will be up to Steve how many he wants to play, he might only want to play a couple,but the option is there for him to use more as and when he needs them , eg. if we are stuggling with injuries, surely this as got to benefit us to be able to keep a strong squad throughout the campaign. Yes it as got its negatives and positives but lets stop this snipeing and give it a chance .Don't bring the likes of Fev Halifax and Leigh into the equation they don't need d/reg players , they can sign the best available players b ecause of there positions of strength and stability in the championship.To get to that position we need to be up there with them and competing on the same terms,this d/reg deal might just give us the chance to do this.Give it a chance if it dosn't work then and only then slate it

Its 6d/r players and 4 loan players but only 6 of the 10 can play in any 1 game and do you not think tony smith will want his players playing every wk thus putting pressure on sm to play them

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I'm confident that Steve will play whichever team he sees fit. He's made it clear over the past two seasons that he will do so.

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Well Phil I am suitably impressed that you now know Tony Smith on a personal level that you can just ring him up and he talks all thing rugby.

Can I ask you a question, would you prefer that Swinton don't register any dual registered player and end up possibly back in championship 1 or that they accept an offer from possiblyone of the best super league clubs at the moment whereby we get use of there better squad players.I do agree with you that the number allowed should be restricted especially in terms of the teams put out on the pitch each game. Like it or not the facts are Swinton at the present moment in time don't have the resources to operate a second team and even if Agecroft was built and we were in it I doubt they would, yes we can ask the clubs if we can sign these players on either as full Swinton players or full season loan players but you know as well as I do their parent club won't agree and most likely prefer the dual registration system wherby they can call them back at a minutes notice. But then didn't we have a couple of players on loan last year one of which we brought back prematurely so the loan system isn't adequate either and the same situation happens in soccer.

I also think you should be taken to task regarding your disgraceful comment regarding Paul Kidd and him " Engineering an opportunity to hob nob with the liikes of Daniel Anderson and Tony Smith " do you actually know that he has met either.? You are the first to get on your high horse when comments are rendered against you on here yet you readily post such rubbish. Do you not think that Paul will already know these guys through his Sky sport /rugby connections any way and therefore wouldn't need to engineer anything to allow him to talk to them.

Our own current coach Steve Mc is on record as saying he feels the link will be invaluable to Swinton....do you think he is engineering anything.!!

Steve McCormack would say that, wouldn't he! If he wants to keep the job, that is. Merely staying on message with his employers. It would be a major surprise if he were to say anything else in the circumstances. I do wonder how he personally is supposed to get engaged in various things at Warrington, whilst also holding down a full time job as a teacher. We shall see.

The fact is we have seen numerous initiatives over the years that had the hallmarks of personal hobby horses for John / Paul but have ultimately done nothing to grow the strength of Swinton Lions. Bolton le Moors?? East Lancashire Lions?? Tie up with Saints?? None of them even exist any more, do they?

What a pity the resources that were put into these projects were not targetted at strengthening rugby league in M27 and improving Swinton Lions income - if so perhaps there would now be something worthwhile to show.

Of course John is at liberty to put his own private money into such ventures if they take his fancy, subject to RFL rules to some degree, but in doing so he has to accept that they have not helped to grow Swinton Lions one iota.

Question is - will this latest venture be any different? If the true objective is to grow Swinton Lions it is important to differentiate between things that John and Paul might find interesting versus things that truly grow Swinton Lions as a brand. It is a mistake that has already been made, and more than once. Do we want the club run as a business, or a family play thing?

Outward looking stuff is fine, but there is no positive impact for the club itself unless it results in positive changes to the way Swinton Lions is set up, its infrastructure and working practices. That is where the focus needs to be, in order to address the root causes of why the income is so low! I for one believe 400 hardcore fans is not the maximum the club is capable of attracting, if Agecroft ever does get delivered and certain things were done better that number could be as much as 3 or 4 times higher in relatively short shrift. Sort those things out and it would be true progress and we wouldn't be saying "we cannot compete in the Championship without 10 players from another club".

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Lets face facts. SL do not want promotion and relegation to come back into force. this is the perfect way to do it. water down the talent in the lower leagues and then when the pesky lower league supporters bang on about P and R then remind them about the fact that only 7 of your 17 players are registered to you.

the fun will come with the Challenge Cup. do u seriously think the SL teams will let their players play against them. not a chance. this could be the final nail in the coffin of the Championship and the Challenge Cup.

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It wouldn't be 10 out of the 17 though Barnie.

From what's been said it would be no more than 6 of the 17. We had 4 in the season just gone, allebeit through D/R from Saints, Huddersfield and Warrington. Riley, Walker, Forster, Hale.

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I agree with Barnie - as far as I am concerned the removal of automatic promotion and relegation to / from Super League has all but in name established two seperate rugby league entities as far as I am concerned - those clubs in Super League and those not in..........the logical step is a move to feeder clubs as that is what happens in sports where the top league is franchised - American Football, Basketball, Baseball etc - the "feeder clubs" in the US are the College Leagues.........which can be said are big in their own right - I would not support it - but it is inevitable...............only pity is that Championship Clubs (all clubs) are not strong enough to break away and set up a seperate competion away from Super League.

The longer the franchise system continues the largest the gap between SL and Championship clubs will become - to point where there can never be a return to promotion and relegation..........I think that point has actually already been passed.......:(

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I think this is a way of sl clubs saving themselves a bundle of money, so they can go after better Quality players from oz which means home grown players will fall further down the ladder

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