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gingerjon

Hillsborough (merged threads)

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Has anyone approached Simon Heffer and Boris Johnson for their comments?

Isn't odd that in London if BoJo was leader the Tory vote goes up but in the north the Tory vote drops still further? Strange that, can't think why.

Boris says he didn't write that by the way, just approved without reading.

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Boris says he didn't write that by the way, just approved without reading.

In that case he's even more stupid than he appears. If that's possible.

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Its going to be difficult to comment on stereotyping in this particular thread without it being misinterpreted.

However, for many many years and for many many people, all over the country, there was widespread (though not universal) trust in the police..for instance, magistrates generally preferred the police version of an event over the plaintiff's version. As we have learnt subsequently on so many occasions, the police do not always tell the truth and the media, the politicians and the population at large are thankfully now much more questioning.

In addition, for those with no real experiences of Liverpool in the 70s , 80s and beyond, people's views were informed by dock strikes, the activities of the Derek Hatton years, Bread, Militant, Toxteth, Boys from the Black Stuff, etc,

Thus, 23 years ago, when the SYP briefed the news agency in Sheffield, there was a general propensity amongst the media, the politicians and the population at large to prefer the police view.

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Its going to be difficult to comment on stereotyping in this particular thread without it being misinterpreted.

However, for many many years and for many many people, all over the country, there was an expectation that the police generally told the truth. Thus, 23 years ago, when the SYP briefed the news agency in Sheffield, there was a general propensity amongst the media, the politicians and the population at large to prefer the police view.

As we have learnt subsequently on so many occasions, the police do not always tell the truth and the media, the politicians and the population at large are thankfully now much more questioning.

I can understand, but not condone, senior officers covering up their mistakes leading to this disaster. But why haven't we heard from any whistle blowers amongst the ranks who were there? Is it down to some masonic sense of loyalty or a culture of arrogance amongst the police?

I am stereotyping police officers but surely there would be one or two who could've spoken out.

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i believe this goes much deeper.

Any statements given by the police officers who lied, will now be called into question. This must mean that hundreds if not thousands of cases have to be called into question.

There was ample evidence of all not being well at SYP five years earlier:

Guardian.co.uk - Hillsborough and Battle of Orgreave: one police force, two disgraces http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/view.m?id=15&gid=%2Ffootball%2F2012%2Fapr%2F12%2Fhillsborough-battle-orgreave&cat=football#.UFGogW7J5bA.twitter

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I can understand, but not condone, senior officers covering up their mistakes leading to this disaster. But why haven't we heard from any whistle blowers amongst the ranks who were there? Is it down to some masonic sense of loyalty or a culture of arrogance amongst the police?

I am stereotyping police officers but surely there would be one or two who could've spoken out.

I can't speak for all of them but I know for a fact that some were leaned on very heavily by their superiors and had their careers threatened. Here is the story from one who I've actually met.

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i believe this goes much deeper.

Any statements given by the police officers who lied, will now be called into question. This must mean that hundreds if not thousands of cases have to be called into question.

Remind me again how many police officers have ever been found guilty with regards to a death that happened when they were on duty?

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Breaking on the BBC is that BoJo has said he is "very, very sorry".

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I can understand, but not condone, senior officers covering up their mistakes leading to this disaster. But why haven't we heard from any whistle blowers amongst the ranks who were there? Is it down to some masonic sense of loyalty or a culture of arrogance amongst the police?

I am stereotyping police officers but surely there would be one or two who could've spoken out.

Whistleblowing is a dangerous thing to do. see for example, http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/06/29/the-nhs-whistleblower-and-the-500000-supergag/

and http://www.nujcec.org/brussels/index.php/activities/campaigns/curr_camp/euinstit-trans/

and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/532006.stm

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Scepticism (by me included) about scousers and their motives for anything and everything they always whinge about.

that kind of thinking is so unlike you Dave

I respect the fact that you put your hands up to it.

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Breaking on the BBC is that BoJo has said he is "very, very sorry".

No word yet from Heffer, though.

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Scepticism (by me included) about scousers and their motives for anything and everything they always whinge about.

The first part of that sentence seems like a brave admission that i respect you for.....somehow the latter part of the sentence negates that somehow......what are you saying?

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Isn't odd that in London if BoJo was leader the Tory vote goes up but in the north the Tory vote drops still further? Strange that, can't think why.

Perhaps it's because the London Evening Boris doesn't circulate in north of Watford

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In my humble opinion, what occurred today achieved two things

1) those present at the game and indeed the people of merseyside, can after 23 years feel exonerated of blame, for any of the allegations (unsubstantiated) leveled against them

2) the families of those that lost loved ones, now have a direction to go to persue closure for their loss of loved ones

as an aside but relevant to 1 and 2

those that were responsible/culpable for the deaths of 96 people, hopefully will now face justice for their actions/inactions.

whether families who suffered loss will actually be at rest is unknown.............but the families who have been deceived for so long, deserve the chance of justice, doing what it should do to find out.

Well said Iain.

I'm sure some sort of closure can only come for the families of those who lost their lives on that awful day when justice is now seen to be done and I hope it's forthcoming sooner rather than later.

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Irvine Patnick, MP for Sheffield Hallam at the time claimed fans were urinating on police who were helping stircken fans from a balcony above:

Here's his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvine_Patnick

In 1994 he was knighted.

Here's a petition for him to be stripped of his knighthood: http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=17&RPID=4397139&HPID=4397139

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evidence, if more were needed, that the "establishment" has in inbuilt propensity to always believe the police account of things.

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evidence, if more were needed, that the "establishment" has in inbuilt propensity to always believe the police account of things.

I think it worked well for the Thatcher government.

She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.

The police weren't called Thatcher's Boot Boys for nothing

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so she was no different to any other PMs past or present, after all.

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so she was no different to any other PMs past or present, after all.

I don't know Joihn

the tories have a long lasting constituency in the police and the situation was a particular one.

there was going to be a lot of civil unrest as her policies unfolded: and she needed enforcers. The police were already a law unto themselves-remember the west midlands crime squad? And various non terrorists banged up, the Olewale case and so on. They 'dealt with' complaints against them themselves. I think the police got away with a lot whoever was in power as you suggest, but the Thatcher government created an unchallengeable praetorian guard. It's conduct has only really been begun to be addressed since the Stephen Lawrence case

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Understood. In addition, before Thatcher, it was always regarded in my area, Manchester and East Lancs that magistrates would always side with the police. I would like to think that the recent Hillsborough revelations would result in some changes, Somehow, though, I doubt it.

Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.

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I think it worked well for the Thatcher government.

She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.

The police weren't called Thatcher's Boot Boys for nothing

Nail on head!

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Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.

I doubt it. The problem as far as I can see is that the police are in bed with the Tories, but Labour are frightened to challenge the police for fear of being shown to be "soft on crime" Blair himself backed away from any confrontation with the police. In the past when the police were more like those they were policing things were different. The police enforced the law even handedly - but one of the first things the Thatcher government did was give them a huge pay rise to "keep them on side" during the troubles that were sure to follow as her plans were put into action. Not for nothing did the police taunt the striking miners by waving their wage packets. Murdoch also got his way at Wapping courtesy of the police. Although I suspect the print unions were slightly less deserving than the miners of fairer treatment.

I think the South Yorkshire Police (and many other forces) genuinely did believe they could act with impunity - right up to the present day. TBH I reckon it will take a Tory government to sort out the police - perhaps this Hillsborough thing will give them the opportunity. But I wouldn't count on it. With unemployment bound to rise from here and the cuts really about to bite, who else is going to pull their chestnuts out of the fire if (when?) things get really tough if not the police?

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Understood. In addition, before Thatcher, it was always regarded in my area, Manchester and East Lancs that magistrates would always side with the police. I would like to think that the recent Hillsborough revelations would result in some changes, Somehow, though, I doubt it.

Further thought. What effect will elected Police Commissioners have? If Prescott gets elected a Humberside Police Commissioner, surely he'd be willing and able to challenge things.

Good question. Politicians like to get re-elected and this always affects decision making remarkably.

The police always cl;ose ranks anyway.

Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.

The whole scenario of how football fans should be treated stank from all sorts of directions. The Popplewell report after the Bradford fire was insufficiently acted on-hence Hillsbotough was still a death trap. Football was, with some justification associated with Hooliganism and 'penning them in' considered all 'they' were good for. There was more political milkeage in being on the side of ther police-which is what Thatcher did. The clubs were apathetic in providing civilkiswed facilities. before the fire Bradford had recieved an unfgavourable report from the council but didn't act on it presumably because it meant spending money that they could spend on players. The area undert the stand hadn't been cleared of rubbish for decades. Bramall lane was known as being dangerous but complaints were ignored and the ground had no certificate-yet the FA still used it. The behaviour of ther police especially at high level was abominable

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