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gingerjon

Hillsborough (merged threads)

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Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?

Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?

As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.

Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )

So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.

With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.

What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.

Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.

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Good question. Politicians like to get re-elected and this always affects decision making remarkably.

The police always cl;ose ranks anyway.

Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.

The whole scenario of how football fans should be treated stank from all sorts of directions. The Popplewell report after the Bradford fire was insufficiently acted on-hence Hillsbotough was still a death trap. Football was, with some justification associated with Hooliganism and 'penning them in' considered all 'they' were good for. There was more political milkeage in being on the side of ther police-which is what Thatcher did. The clubs were apathetic in providing civilkiswed facilities. before the fire Bradford had recieved an unfgavourable report from the council but didn't act on it presumably because it meant spending money that they could spend on players. The area undert the stand hadn't been cleared of rubbish for decades. Bramall lane was known as being dangerous but complaints were ignored and the ground had no certificate-yet the FA still used it. The behaviour of ther police especially at high level was abominable

I once saw a copper threaten a soccer fan on Albion Street in Leeds. The language he used was appalling. Don't get me wrong, I didn't see what had caused him to behave in such a manner, but TBH the soccer fan appeared just to be walking down Albion Street when this copper grabbed him and pushed him up against a wall.

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Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?

Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?

As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.

Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )

So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.

With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.

What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.

Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.

But in none of the other disasters you mention has it been proved that the police and coroner altered evidence after the fact. You can berate Labour politiicans all you like and some of it is justified. The fact is though that this occurred under a Tory government, and Thatcher, Tory MP Irvine Patnik, and press secretary Bernard Ingham have all been shown as complicit in covering up what happened. Personally when Blair got in in 1997 with such a huge majority I'd have thought that all the dirty washing from the eighties could have been brought out. It wasn't presumably because as I said Blair (like most Labour politicians) was scared stiff of being seen as anti police.

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Were these Thatchers Boot Boys the 'common bobby' or the 'command structure' as mentioned by Trevor Hicks,who lost 2 daughters at Hillsborough ?

Doesn't the expression 'Boot Boys' first emerge in a song sung by soccer hooligans ?

As it is apparently political,does Labour MP Jack Straw get off for free despite the 'victims of rendition' ? He allowed/demanded an enquiry.What was that result ? Another Labour Home Secretary,from Sheffield and former mayor,demanded the sacking of the Chief Constable of Humberside following the Soham murders.The Police Authority in Labour ruling Humberside backed their CC.

Should I be calling for action against Blunkett for neglecting his duty,while he was seeing to another man's wife British born suicide bombers,mass-killers,were planning and preparing their murderous intent in London ? ( I know Reid was Home Sec.on the day )

So,a tragedy in a stadium without a safety certificate,when police communications were antiquated;medical staff,training and numbers were considerably less than they are now and when all the other stadium disasters,including Ibrox in the 70's,never led to mass allegations against Police,I now discover the British public to have great vision of Utopia with their hindsight.

Oh,and as for the photograph on this thread,it seems to demonstrate an element of decency in shielding people from view of the loss of life.

With the Bishop of Liverpool chairing the independent panel it would be in contrast with police having outside investigation.

What word was used prior to pinching 'closure' from America ?

I'm pleased for Lord Falconer getting himself a nice little earner - must be some way behind Blair and his 'earnings'.

Just like Prescott - Labour people who like a 'title'.

thre command structure failed, the response from the emergency services compl;etely inadequate. 'The common bobby' was with one or two erxceptions willing to engage in the cover up orchestrated by their superiors the same common bobbies who had a nice littl;e earner and had pretty much a free hand in the miners' strike four years before.

What has the origins of the term boot boys got to do with anything? Was there evidence of hooliganism in the leppings lane end when this tragedy took place? The whole pack of lies whipped up by the media centres on this.

The conduct, with exceptions of the police was reprehensible in this tragedy. Police had been equipped with personal radios for decades when this happened. Briefings before games even then would have involved thorough radio checks. There was no communication because nobody was doing any communicating until it was too late.

Police officers are trained in first aid without exception, including CPR. If you look at the photography you mention, there are people being given it, people not doing anything, and there is no one evidently dead. If the police officers are shleding the people from the 'loss of life' they aren't doing much of a job of it considering the number of officers and the gap betyween them: meanwhile at least some of them should have been helping the 'civilians' give CPR or help in other practical ways.

But even that doesn't hit at the heart of this scandal: it was the corruption of the police from a high level downward and the complicity of tghe media and the government then and for years afterwards.

What do you think shouild have been done? Should we have believed what was in the Sun? Should we have supported the Police regardless like Thatcher did then and others have done since?

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She gave them a 45% pay rise as soon as she was elected.

Lets not let facts get in the way shall we. I'm assuming the 45% pay rise you are on about was the Edmund Davis report? The one started and agreed upon by the Labour party, and only implemented by the Tories because they had come into power after the 'old' labour party Home Secretary Meryn Rees had agreed to implement it but was then ouit of power.

Only one officer objected to having nhis statement altered after Hillsborough and he left the force soon after.

It seems the fact that police involved in major incidents amending/altering their statements was common practice and common knowledge at the time. Lord Justice Taylor certainly knew about it. Jack Straw ordered an Inquiry into this practice when it was first mentioned and that didn't find anything wrong in this process of statement gathering at major incidents. The way it was described is this. Immediately after the incident a policeman writes down his notes in freehand on a statement form. Days later the statement is typed up, but he could then be asked to add anything else he may have remembered or seen on that day. He could also be asked or even prompted, quite lawfully, if he had seen a particular thing. If he did he could add that info to the typed statement as well. I believe this was pounced upon by some lawyers and press as being an altered statement, ie the hand written one is different from the typed one. Nowadays the officer would be asked to submit an extra statement, but in them days that was the practice.

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Lets not let facts get in the way shall we. I'm assuming the 45% pay rise you are on about was the Edmund Davis report? The one started and agreed upon by the Labour party, and only implemented by the Tories because they had come into power after the 'old' labour party Home Secretary Meryn Rees had agreed to implement it but was then ouit of power.

It seems the fact that police involved in major incidents amending/altering their statements was common practice and common knowledge at the time. Lord Justice Taylor certainly knew about it. Jack Straw ordered an Inquiry into this practice when it was first mentioned and that didn't find anything wrong in this process of statement gathering at major incidents. The way it was described is this. Immediately after the incident a policeman writes down his notes in freehand on a statement form. Days later the statement is typed up, but he could then be asked to add anything else he may have remembered or seen on that day. He could also be asked or even prompted, quite lawfully, if he had seen a particular thing. If he did he could add that info to the typed statement as well. I believe this was pounced upon by some lawyers and press as being an altered statement, ie the hand written one is different from the typed one. Nowadays the officer would be asked to submit an extra statement, but in them days that was the practice.

Being instructed to alter a statement, is not the same as being prompted for review.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-17126678

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Not saying it is. I was trying, obviously not well enough, to answer L'angs comments that that have been bandied about all through this thread that it was a Tory government that gave the police a huge pay rise as a 'well done' for backing them up, when it wasn't, and that altering major incident statements was not seen in those days was anything out of the usual, in fact was the norm. Didn't make any comment about altering statements under duress.

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Not saying it is. I was trying, obviously not well enough, to answer L'angs comments that that have been bandied about all through this thread that it was a Tory government that gave the police a huge pay rise as a 'well done' for backing them up, when it wasn't, and that altering major incident statements was not seen in those days was anything out of the usual, in fact was the norm. Didn't make any comment about altering statements under duress.

They didn't give the police a pay rise as a "well done" they gave them it as a carrot to keep them in line.

As for evidence being changed, all you say may be true about police notebooks, that still doesn't alter the fact that the coroner gave 3-15pm as the cut off time for all the deaths, when it has emerged that many of those who died were still alive at this time and, had timely first aid been administered by trained personel (the police say) many of these deaths could have been prevented. It can only be assumed that someone leaned on the coroner.

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Not saying it is. I was trying, obviously not well enough, to answer L'angs comments that that have been bandied about all through this thread that it was a Tory government that gave the police a huge pay rise as a 'well done' for backing them up, when it wasn't, and that altering major incident statements was not seen in those days was anything out of the usual, in fact was the norm. Didn't make any comment about altering statements under duress.

how can it have been a 'well done for backing them up' when they had only just been elected? The point was to keep them sweet in preparation for the sociaal unrest that lay ahead.

it doesn't matter whether it was 'the norm' or not, and doctoring statements was only one aspect of the cover up and disinformation campaign.

the telegraph is hardly the morning star. Here is a take on the situation from one of their senior writers

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/3674891/Thatcher_kept_the_police_onside/

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This will be an interesting insight into how things are these days: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19620627

"After the verdict in July, Deborah Glass, deputy chairwoman of the IPCC said "significant questions" remained over PC Harwood's actions."

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Sir Alex Ferguson's letter to Manchester United fans.

Dear Supporter,

The great support you gave the team here last season has seen our allocation back up to near-full levels. I want you to continue that progress today.

But today is about much more than not blocking gangways. Today is about thinking hard about what makes United the best club in the world.

Our rivalry with Liverpool is based on a determination to come out on top – a wish to see us crowned the best against a team that held that honour for so long.

It cannot and should never be based on personal hatred. Just ten days ago, we heard the terrible, damning truth about the deaths of 96 fans who went to watch their team try and reach the FA Cup final and never came back.

What happened to them should wake the conscience of everyone connected with the game.

Our great club stands with our great neighbours Liverpool today to remember that loss and pay tribute to their campaign for justice. I know I can count on you to stand with us in the best traditions of the best fans in the game.

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Sir Alex Ferguson's letter to Manchester United fans.

Well done Sir Alex, but common decency shouldn't need spelling out.

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Amen to that. At least it seems to be moving forward. fingers crossed

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