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GeordieSaint

Eagles for SL

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Griff - when did you take a vote from the "Punters" and at which clubs?

Revenue as "income" is always offset by costs.

Let's say you have two clubs in one city. One get's 11,000 fans and the other gets 7.000 fans.

The first breaks even or makes a small loss, the second loses £500K a year.

They merge and 5,000 fans abandon the game but new fans take interest.

You may then get one club in the city who could make a profit and go on to make bigger profits.

Let's take three clubs along an infamous river. Collectively they have large revenues, from 17,000 fans but they all play in dumps and lose their best players to bigger clubs.

The revenue is high but one goes bust the second claims they are in dire straights and the third runs at a loss even in the Championship.

Three lots of costs more than eat away any revenue.

ANYWAY as I say you forgot costs against revenue (I know you knew this) and you can't speak for others.

BTW the clubs i used as an example above are entirely fictional :D

They'd be lucky to get 500 turning up!!

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They'd be lucky to get 500 turning up!!

You may or may not be right, but I'd agree merger isn't a great idea.

Certainly not if you can squash your local rivals by taking all the best players and new fans in the area.

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Your opinion is ALWAYS that I am talking nonsense. You need to stick to the actual debates.

You have entirely ignored the facts and twisted them just to try to score your customary point.

Hull.K.R. were sinking as fast as Hunslet in the face of Leeds or Halifax in the face of Fartown and Bradford.

The process of the big clubs taking players and fans from the small clubs is something entirely perpetrated by the bigger clubs.

You have ("whoosh") completely missed the point that Mo Lyndsay covered the need for less clubs to have a bigger share of the

quality players and paying fans (a sound analysis, that is so important to the game even 17 years on, even though Mo is somewhere other than the RFL). He then went on to suggest merger so that this process could happen in an atmosphere of unity and inclusiveness. Nice one Mo.

Then the CLUBS (note that) said "No we are not going to merge" and set about fighting each other for the "Elite" places in the SKY sponsored Superleague.

It was, is, and still remains the CLUBS who are slugging this out. Mo and the RFL supported merger and inclusivity.

Each man for himself as Padge so eloquently puts it.

Hudgell was HKR's man and what he used to fight off his clubs demise was money. £Millions of it literally. This is the stuff that everyone needs to run clubs, to run successful SL teams even? HKR had the money, won the league, gained promotion and they brought that money into Superleague and provided a competetive club.

The RFL did not have a policy of engineering heavily cashed up clubs out of superleague (are you mad?) to attain their desired hope of less clubs each with more of the resources. Clubs who could spend full salary cap year on year were what the RFL could not find in enough numbers. They can't even find them now can they?

I'm sure Mo being a smart man knew that his vision for a low number of clubs having the lions share of resources could either come about through merger OR the clubs slugging it out. Either way it was not his problem to sort nor was it his successors problem to sort.

Now Hudgell's money has run out it seems Pearson is in for the kill.

So sorry Solly - No point here for you......

On the contrary, it was my point that the RFL are trying to promote "the big clubs in a big league" when Hull KR became one of those, they were in.

THe whole "merger by stealth" business was forgotten about if it ever existed.

So long as the new guy has cash then Hull KR have nothing to fear.

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1. THe whole "merger by stealth" business was forgotten about if it ever existed.

2. So long as the new guy has cash then Hull KR have nothing to fear.

1. Well you again turn a complete blind eye to Hull raiding HKR's playing roster.

2. Nobody has anything to fear if they can pay full salary cap at the Mo (geddit?) If 20 clubs could do it the "geography" element of the license may come into play, THEN the RFL may cut out a club if there were two in the same place.

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The RFL have stated that a minimum of one Championship Club will be promoted - subject to meeting the licensing standards,

The rider is always going to be there - get used to it.

If you think they will move more than one team from the Championship to SL next time around, then let me tell you about this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale.

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1. Well you again turn a complete blind eye to Hull raiding HKR's playing roster.

2. Nobody has anything to fear if they can pay full salary cap at the Mo (geddit?) If 20 clubs could do it the "geography" element of the license may come into play, THEN the RFL may cut out a club if there were two in the same place.

I didn't turn a blind eye when players move the other way either.

If there were 20 big clubs but then the RFL's justification for licensing would no longer exist since it would be possible to have automatic P & R between the top two divisions.

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Griff - when did you take a vote from the "Punters" and at which clubs?

Same time as you took a vote on your views. ;)

Nevertheless, the 1995 mergers didn't happen because of supporter opposition. Fact. If you can remember so far back .....

I don't disagree with most of what you say.

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Griff - when did you take a vote from the "Punters" and at which clubs?

Revenue as "income" is always offset by costs.

Let's say you have two clubs in one city. One get's 11,000 fans and the other gets 7.000 fans.

The first breaks even or makes a small loss, the second loses £500K a year.

They merge and 5,000 fans abandon the game but new fans take interest.

You may then get one club in the city who could make a profit and go on to make bigger profits.

Let's take three clubs along an infamous river. Collectively they have large revenues, from 17,000 fans but they all play in dumps and lose their best players to bigger clubs.

The revenue is high but one goes bust the second claims they are in dire straights and the third runs at a loss even in the Championship.

Three lots of costs more than eat away any revenue.

ANYWAY as I say you forgot costs against revenue (I know you knew this) and you can't speak for others.

BTW the clubs i used as an example above are entirely fictional :D

What if your hypothesis was wrong and the entirely fictional chairman of the club with the 11 000 attendance stated that his imaginary club would actually lose the same 5,000,000 pounds this season.

What if an imaginary investor was found for the second fictitious club who stemmed the losses but the other club continued to lose half a million a year. Things are not set in stone. Things change.

Hunslet and Swinton were once big. Both teams in your imaginary city might once have been bankrupt but the league might have bailed one out by sacrficing an expansion club to save the first club from being in the 2nd division which didn't even want them.

The other may have been abandoned to the mercies of the administrator.

The original SL who were formed following mo"s inspired vision bears little realtaionship to the current SL. a third of the teams are gone from it. Things change. Where is your evidence that new fans would jump on board an amalgamated club. If they are there, why are they not supporting one or both of the current clubs.?

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If you think they will move more than one team from the Championship to SL next time around, then let me tell you about this bridge in Brooklyn I have for sale.

Wondering into the realms of totally unsubstantiated gut feelings, I'd be surprised if there is a "next time", got a gut feeling that change is in the air.

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Hunslet and Swinton were once big. Both teams in your imaginary city might once have been bankrupt but the league might have bailed one out by sacrficing an expansion club to save the first club from being in the 2nd division which didn't even want them.

Absolutely. Nothing is forever. It'll be interesting to see who's in $uperleague twenty - or even ten - years from now.

If we can keep the thread going that long. :happy:

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There is only one way into SL at the end of the day and that is by having enough money, supporters can have all the fanciful dreams in the world but if their aren't enough of them to finance an SL club then the club will have to rely on one supporter who does.

The city of Sheffield has never shown a great appetite for the game, even when the club was doing well, however that doesn't mean that city may always shun an RL team there. However the problem the club has is it will not for the foreseeable future pull in enough supporters to sustain a viable SL club and there is nobody on a white charger riding up the M1 to take them forward. The best Sheffield can hope for is slow steady growth, building up a stable, loyal fan base, that is far more important to the club than chasing a disastrous SL dream, they just at the moment do not have anywhere near enough core support without a massive financial backer to fund a term in SL.

There has been no mergers by stealth, and no attempts to merge clubs by stealth. Once clubs voted against mergers in 95 the gloves where off. If a club representing an area couldn't become a bigger representative for the area by merging local rivals then it was up to those local rivals to fight for all the available support. RL operated for years with clubs operating a closed shop by area. It was unheard of to tap into a rivals support base, all well and good when you are the only entertainment in town. However as the world changed, with people have many more entertainment options, then on top of that the advent of multichannel TV, something had to give.

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I didn't turn a blind eye when players move the other way either.

Your not just myopic your as blind as a bat.

Let's try again. When Hull had all the money they dominated and HKR sank.

Only money reversed that process - £££millions.

THEN some players went the other way. Hall had struggled with his defence and Cooke had discipline problems but they went back to their beloved Rovers because the money was there.

All over "up t'north" fans leave places like York, Oldham, Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Barrow, Bramley, Leigh, Halifax (cue "I don't know a single fan in Halifax that goes to SL games") to go watch Superleague. Compare and contrast the crowds SL.v.CC.

Championship club towns have spawned over 30 fully professional RL players currently playing the game. None of them actually play for their local clubs.

In the absence of enough money to be able not just to be in Superleague but to compete in it, the big clubs take players and fans away from the little ones (and so as Hudge runs out of money the top players run out). Eventually the process is complete when the big club enters into an arrangement with the little club who then becomes the "A" team and thus the takeover is complete. First merger by stealth (a poor metaphor as Padge notes, and I admit for one club draining it's neighbours of resources) is in my city. Sadly the third club in my city that didn't merge is set to disappear.

This is what happens to a game with too many clubs and not enough fans and players.

This is why CC clubs can start Academies and SL clubs will say we'll have him and him.

This is why clubs don't co-exist they compete, there's no "symbiotic" relationship.

This is why you can't build an SL club if your neighbour is knocking it down

Need the address of a good optician?

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The best Sheffield can hope for is slow steady growth, building up a stable, loyal fan base, that is far more important to the club than chasing a disastrous SL dream.

You forgot "and having fun at the same time chasing more trophies"..........

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Your not just myopic your as blind as a bat.

Let's try again. When Hull had all the money they dominated and HKR sank.

Only money reversed that process - £££millions.

THEN some players went the other way. Hall had struggled with his defence and Cooke had discipline problems but they went back to their beloved Rovers because the money was there.

All over "up t'north" fans leave places like York, Oldham, Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Barrow, Bramley, Leigh, Halifax (cue "I don't know a single fan in Halifax that goes to SL games") to go watch Superleague. Compare and contrast the crowds SL.v.CC.

Championship club towns have spawned over 30 fully professional RL players currently playing the game. None of them actually play for their local clubs.

In the absence of enough money to be able not just to be in Superleague but to compete in it, the big clubs take players and fans away from the little ones (and so as Hudge runs out of money the top players run out). Eventually the process is complete when the big club enters into an arrangement with the little club who then becomes the "A" team and thus the takeover is complete. First merger by stealth (a poor metaphor as Padge notes, and I admit for one club draining it's neighbours of resources) is in my city. Sadly the third club in my city that didn't merge is set to disappear.

This is what happens to a game with too many clubs and not enough fans and players.

This is why CC clubs can start Academies and SL clubs will say we'll have him and him.

This is why clubs don't co-exist they compete, there's no "symbiotic" relationship.

This is why you can't build an SL club if your neighbour is knocking it down

Need the address of a good optician?

The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?

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I've learned something new today already. Parky told me that Hudgell was an enlightened individual with an inside track on the thinking of the RFL and now I find out out that he has been flogging a dead horse to death all this time.

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You therefore totally failed to see HKR's steady demise to the point of 1,000 fans attending a Chorley game and all the best kids in Hull packed into Hull FC and FC's Challenge Cup victory and Superleague appearance at Old Trafford.

Yes, all the best kids in Hull. Who were they...?

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The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?

HKR may yet survive SL. They'll need money, I think you know that.

I saw Bramley win a trophy beating the games top clubs to get to it.

Your final example is fair enough, but your premise that that prompts a merger is just ludicrous.

Why not pop up here and watch as Leeds particularly target the best kids in their neighbours area and target the people living there to buy season tickets.

The penny may then drop,

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I've learned something new today already. Parky told me that Hudgell was an enlightened individual with an inside track on the thinking of the RFL and now I find out out that he has been flogging a dead horse to death all this time.

Hudgell is a smart man and an excellent businessman.

He is an entrepreuner and a fan and understandably tried to revive HKR's fortunes calculating it could be done with a few million pounds.

His plans for HKR have hit a major setback, but they aren't down yet

So I dunno why you made that daft statement above.

If your just trying to score a point of me, then let's now agree to disagree as in not doing so people can become quite nasty (albeit you never are).

You can have the last say :)

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You forgot "and having fun at the same time chasing more trophies"..........

That's true.

Mind you, it's not so long ago that Sheffield scraped into Div 2 through the play-off and were written off as relegation favourites the following season. Since then, they've missed the cut for the play-offs once.

Historically, they've generally over-achieved. Finished in the top half of the Div1/$uperleague table more often than not and - spookily - never lost in the Premiership to anyone except Wigan. :huh:

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The thing you miss is that Hull KR are still in SL and may well win another licence in 2015. Comparing them to Bramley is ludicrous. Some players move clubs and generally from small clubs to big clubs, this is not something unique to Hull. The other week a promising winger moved from Broncos to KR, should I conclude that Broncos should "merge" with KR?

If the old Hull KR thread is anything to go by, Parky's views on both Hull clubs are complete rubbish, based on illogical opinion and underlying motives. His facts just don't stack up, no matter how many contradicting stats he puts up (some just completely incorrect anyway), and when challenged, instead of answering them he just has a little moan about something that upsets him then repeats the same line of logic!

Most of the tricks in the book to try and get people to come to his way of thinking: strawmannery, diversion tactics, playing the victim, causation, changing the facts, false premise, hear say, vagueness, playing on fantasies, scapegoating, rejecting facts/logic as opinion, hyperbole. If he was that confident in his argument, he'd use a more honest approach.

If you can be bothered to go on the ride, that's your choice!

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I think all agree that Sheffield are not ready for SL at this time. However, how some SL diehards on here can write them off as never being capable of entering and competing in SL, seems perverse to me

Many are the arguments and postings on here about the impossibility of small towns such as Keighley, Featherstone Leigh and the cumbrian clubs being able to generate attendances large enough for SL due to not ever having a large enough catchment area or population to achieve this.

There have been threads about the need for RL to have SL clubs in large cities. The thought of not having one in Bradford, a small sized city, brought about predictions of SL collapse The current lovefest with Wakefield engaged in by some posters because they are a City club reinforces that point..

Yet, here is a club in a large City, who are set to tick all the boxes, even if they are not ready yet, with a previous history of being able to attract at least 3,000 average crowds and they are being written off as never being able to be a SL licence holder.

Given that some of our top teams are from small places, Wigan, St Helens, Perpignan and Huddersfield, I find this attitude just a little bit hypocritical.

Sheffield should be just as high on the SL agenda for a future licence as Toulouse. Their attendances when playing in the CC were no better than Shefffield's and the cost of travelling there dosn't help the other SL clubs budgets much. I am not saying I am against Toulouse, merely that it would be nice if Sheffield were given the same enthusiastic support for their ambitions as are Touluse. They desrve it equally as much.

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I think all agree that Sheffield are not ready for SL at this time. However, how some SL diehards on here can write them off as never being capable of entering and competing in SL, seems perverse to me

Many are the arguments and postings on here about the impossibility of small towns such as Keighley, Featherstone Leigh and the cumbrian clubs being able to generate attendances large enough for SL due to not ever having a large enough catchment area or population to achieve this.

There have been threads about the need for RL to have SL clubs in large cities. The thought of not having one in Bradford, a small sized city, brought about predictions of SL collapse The current lovefest with Wakefield engaged in by some posters because they are a City club reinforces that point..

Yet, here is a club in a large City, who are set to tick all the boxes, even if they are not ready yet, with a previous history of being able to attract at least 3,000 average crowds and they are being written off as never being able to be a SL licence holder.

Given that some of our top teams are from small places, Wigan, St Helens, Perpignan and Huddersfield, I find this attitude just a little bit hypocritical.

Sheffield should be just as high on the SL agenda for a future licence as Toulouse. Their attendances when playing in the CC were no better than Shefffield's and the cost of travelling there dosn't help the other SL clubs budgets much. I am not saying I am against Toulouse, merely that it would be nice if Sheffield were given the same enthusiastic support for their ambitions as are Touluse. They desrve it equally as much.

Totally agree. Expansion into Sheffield would be a very big step for the game. A HUGE city, central to the country, great facilities, huge expansion area in the Midlands on their doorstep. Being on the edge of the heartlands as well means they have access to tons of players and away support so they won't have to start standing still.

Are they ready now? No.

Will they be ready in two years? Possibly.

Will they be ready in five years? Hopefully!

SL needs big clubs in big places at big venues with big fan bases. Sheffield has the potential that others don't in that league.

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HKR may yet survive SL. They'll need money, I think you know that.

I saw Bramley win a trophy beating the games top clubs to get to it.

Your final example is fair enough, but your premise that that prompts a merger is just ludicrous.

Why not pop up here and watch as Leeds particularly target the best kids in their neighbours area and target the people living there to buy season tickets.

The penny may then drop,

Neither Hunslet or Bramley are in any way able to compete with Leeds financially. Hull KR aren't that far behind FC.

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Totally agree. Expansion into Sheffield would be a very big step for the game. A HUGE city, central to the country, great facilities, huge expansion area in the Midlands on their doorstep. Being on the edge of the heartlands as well means they have access to tons of players and away support so they won't have to start standing still.

Are they ready now? No.

Will they be ready in two years? Possibly.

Will they be ready in five years? Hopefully!

SL needs big clubs in big places at big venues with big fan bases. Sheffield has the potential that others don't in that league.

Indeed. SL needs Sheffield (when they are ready).

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Neither Hunslet or Bramley are in any way able to compete with Leeds financially. Hull KR aren't that far behind FC.

Just look at the record and work on fact not fantasy.

If you can spend Full salary cap (like Hull can) you are in for any of the top players, with an even shout.

If you are unable to spend full cap and your spending is limited you do not have a chance of the top players because you are not just behind HullFC (if you are HKR) but behind a very long queue of bigger spenders.

Give it up solly.

The market is such that there are more clubs chasing top players than there are top players. If HKR are behind say ten clubs they won't get a sniff of any top player.

Quite the reverse.

Indeed if you are short of money in the auction, you can come away with nothing of any note. Somewhere someone outbids you for the top players.

Just accept the facts Solly. Once Hudge did not want to compete with other SL clubs Wigan and HullFC moved in to take the best they had.

If Omari Caro was that good then there's be half a dozen SL clubs who would have nipped in before Rovers......

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