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GeordieSaint

Eagles for SL

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"I'd be surprised if anyone is spending less than us. I'm not a millionaire sugar daddy chucking money in the pot"

Andrew Glover, League Express 15th October 2012 exploding the myth that he's loaded.

I think he's trying to say that a well run club can indeed hack it in SL without a sugar daddy.

He also said the salary cap was too high (an extremely interesting comment).

He also conceded that if the cap was lowered the big clubs should be given dispensation to pay for the game's marquee players.

But regardless of his mooted changes for the salary cap system Andrew Glover got 8,000 fans into Belle Vue and I'd guess he'll project more at Newmarket.

It may well be the case "a well run club can indeed hack it in SL without a sugar daddy" and the RFL have given Mr. Khan a chance to also prove that, but part of "well run" includes 10,000 crowds.

Not 1,600 or 2,000 or even 4,500. So again let's all face the reality.

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The transfer system didn't collapse, it was declared illegal, probably when someone in the Sports Ministry twigged the slave trade had been abolished.

It collapsed because it was illegal.

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1. I know but even when they weren't suffering the recession they may have had more corporate money but only had 1,000 fans.

2. Yes I thought that was an angle especially when he referred to London and Crusaders.

Today there's several Welsh Superleague players and a growing number of Superleague players from London and the south east. These areas were and are receptive to Rugby League probably more so than Sheffield is, so that's probably why these areas were preferred to Sheffield.

But even those two clubs had to have money men before they were allowed in Superleague so the RFL IMHO are not going to bankroll Sheffield to see if they can create pro players from the area. As I said above if the RFL were to pay for a championship club to be in SL to expand the playing pool they'd probably get better results from Cumbria??.

Featherstone and Pontefract produce players in good numbers and they say Mr. Nahaboo will fund them, so that's another reason to sadly say it's a "no" to Sheffield.....

As i have said a few times on here i dont think the eagles are ready but i dont think that that means they never will be..

As i have also said i think Sheffield is receptive to a Rugby League club, if done correctly whch it blatantly was not last time around. The fact it is a football city is not great but there is also the fact that for the majority of the season RL is a summer sport and so you dont have to wrestle people away from football to watch RL they can actually do both which is great.. now it is a case of exploiting that fact..

anyway as i say i broadly agree eagles are not ready yet but i take issue with the "never will be" style arguments..

the reason i say that is becuase i dont want this to decsend again into the above..

What i would like to know is this:

You say Welsh players, and players from London and the South East.. you seem to be saying that the Welsh Super League club helped Wales and hte London Super Legaue club is developing London and the South east, which i broadly agree with and they have both done a fantastic job with getting juniors through from those two areas.. however my issue is this:

London Bronocos/Harlequins manage to get juniors through (but only now) from an area as large as London and the South East, Britains Capital City, biggest city and hugely populous are as a whole (South East in 2011 census is 8.6 million, London is also in census 2011 8.17million, combined at 16.7 million!)

Wales RFL and Welsh Super Legaue has got juniors coming though a whole Country.. population give or take 3 million...

Yet Sheffield have to do this with kids just in Sheffield?? Yorkshure & Humber in 2011 census has a population of 5.28million Sheffield is somewhere around the 550k mark!!!

This seems mightily unfair...

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I take issue with the "never will be" style arguments..

So why are you quoting me then??

The quote in terms of the "view that no team, ever, anywhere, no matter what they do can ever be fit for SL".

Is entirely Keighley's quote, keighley's words and wrongly attributed to me.

Oddly I agreed at one point if Sheffield find a big money man they could get straight in SL.

Why not use what I HAVE said when addressing me.

We may then have a fair and sensible debate.

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1. You say Welsh players, and players from London and the South East.. You seem to be saying that the Welsh Super League club helped Wales and the London Super League club is developing London and the South east, which i broadly agree with and they have both done a fantastic job with getting juniors through from those two areas.

2. London manage to get juniors through from 8.6 million.

Wales got juniors coming though (from) 3 million.

3. Yet Sheffield have to do this with kids just in Sheffield around the 550k mark

This seems mightily unfair...

1. I'm pleased you agree. Superleague clubs do stimulate the junior game in their areas and in having junior development and academies you can get results against the odds given we're a third choice footballing code.

2. Yes you have highlighted why it's important to try to get Superleague clubs representing whole regions then they have a bigger population to go at to develop the game. It's Mo Lyndsay point.

I'd guess London will go on to produce far more Superleague professionals than say Leigh or York, by a country mile.

3. "They don't have to" do this exactly. But if they pick up juniors from Wakefield and Huddersfield which they do, where existing clubs already have systems in place they are not doing anything to expand the professional player base. So the RFL probably would like Sheffield to concentrate on the whole of south Yorkshire.

HOWEVER put yourself in the position of the RFL if say Hughes pulls his funding out and the RFL move to centrally funding SL clubs who can develop players in new areas?.

Their position will be that they would favour funding London first, and Wales second if the purpose was to grow the junior game and get professional players coming through from that. I suggested West Cumbria as a good place (if central funding was the policy) to put Superleague in terms of getting kids playing and coming through as professionals. I guess they have a lower population than Sheffield.

So what exactly do you see as unfair?

There's too much one eyed focus here. Sheffield eagles for SL? I'd say featherstone first

Sheffield Eagles for SL to develop players if money was available?? I'd say go back to South Wales first, feeding the International side is paramount and infinately more important than trying to get sheffield to supply SL players.

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So why are you quoting me then??

The quote in terms of the "view that no team, ever, anywhere, no matter what they do can ever be fit for SL".

Is entirely Keighley's quote, keighley's words and wrongly attributed to me.

Oddly I agreed at one point if Sheffield find a big money man they could get straight in SL.

Why not use what I HAVE said when addressing me.

We may then have a fair and sensible debate.

I did the rest was a general comment to try to stop someone using it for other purposes..

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I did the rest was a general comment to try to stop someone using it for other purposes..

Fair enough RP not having a go just need to point out there are people bending what I am saying.

And that is if sheffield have no money they won't get in SL.

And if Sheffield is a good place to expand the pro player base fine, it's just London and Wales are better places to do that if the money is available.

But it's not.

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Even with the parlous state of the finances of some of the current $uperleague sides, it's difficult to see anyone from outside who's a better bet.

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1. I'm pleased you agree. Superleague clubs do stimulate the junior game in their areas and in having junior development and academies you can get results against the odds given we're a third choice footballing code.

try using my words... i broadly agree with you on your last point.. but i wouldnt agree that just Super League clubs stimulate the junior game.. i think ALL clubs help stimulate the game.. somer are not doing a great job but they still help.

2. Yes you have highlighted why it's important to try to get Superleague clubs representing whole regions then they have a bigger population to go at to develop the game. It's Mo Lyndsay point.

I'd guess London will go on to produce far more Superleague professionals than say Leigh or York, by a country mile.

that is like telling a blind man he cannot see.... the point seems to be missed here.. i am not making a statement on its own it is combined to point 3..

3. "They don't have to" do this exactly. But if they pick up juniors from Wakefield and Huddersfield which they do, where existing clubs already have systems in place they are not doing anything to expand the professional player base. So the RFL probably would like Sheffield to concentrate on the whole of south Yorkshire.

of course they are expanding the player pool.. those players would not have been picked up otherwise and you can miss some great players who mature later on.. as long as it is not solely where they are looking i dont see it as an issue.. if they can get some west yorkshire lads into the academy who have a more fundamental grounding in thegame than the ones they pick up from the more expansionist areas then this will help those kids newer to the game to improve..

HOWEVER put yourself in the position of the RFL if say Hughes pulls his funding out and the RFL move to centrally funding SL clubs who can develop players in new areas?.

Their position will be that they would favour funding London first, and Wales second if the purpose was to grow the junior game and get professional players coming through from that. I suggested West Cumbria as a good place (if central funding was the policy) to put Superleague in terms of getting kids playing and coming through as professionals. I guess they have a lower population than Sheffield.

So what exactly do you see as unfair?

what i see as unfair is you comparing sheffield to london and wales.. not the RFL but you.. you have come out and said that London and the South are doing this and Wales have produced that yet they have a much bigger population area to go at when YOU restrict Sheffield to Sheffield.. The RFL are not doing this as far as i am aware.. as far as i know they are seeing Sheffield as being able to tap into the North Midlands and further a field as well as south Yorkshure itself..

Sheffield are doing a great job in producing players but you seem to want to belittle them in what they do and say its not good enough becuase they havent got a team of pure Sheffielders.. where as London has them from all over the boroughs and yet they are doing well..

Why do we have to go with a hypothetical situation anyway.. IF this happens then why should they be in.. well what IF that doesnt happen? what IF i win the Euro Millions and plough it into RL??? you can do What ifs until you are blue in the face.. lets try and keep this to the actual situation... Eagles have ticked a box and may apply.. Wales have not and wont.. London already have a Super Legaue team so we are talking about the eagles here not everyone else..

There's too much one eyed focus here. Sheffield eagles for SL? I'd say featherstone first

and yet they have an even smaller catchment than sheffield.. but i would agree they are higher up on the list of the other bits and peices needed for Super League.. but why is it an either or why not both? and 2 teams get the chop?

Sheffield Eagles for SL to develop players if money was available?? I'd say go back to South Wales first, feeding the International side is paramount and infinately more important than trying to get sheffield to supply SL players.

and yet Wales havent ticked the box to allow them to apply, they dont have a team in the position and if the Eagles bring in the money then its eagles that get the go.. thats not that hard to understand... Wales would be great, Sheffield would be great.. both would be better.. but this doesnt make sense as a point, Eagles get the money you cant just hand it to wales..

Please this is a thread about Eagles for the next liscnece round not some hypothetical what if competition or debate about eagles vs clubs that dont exist or havent ticked the box.

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Fair enough RP not having a go just need to point out there are people bending what I am saying.

And that is if sheffield have no money they won't get in SL.

And if Sheffield is a good place to expand the pro player base fine, it's just London and Wales are better places to do that if the money is available.

But it's not.

there are i agree but i was not one of them there..

I would change your "if sheffield have no money" i dont think its important to "have money" per ce.. as long as they dont lose money they could do it on a shoe string and still add to the comp to be honest.. London and Wales may well be better places but Wales have gone bust and London already has a super league club.. they need to generate their own money surely.. you want sheffield to generate their own money so why is it different for others....

All i ask is you give Sheffield a fair crack fo the whip and in every thing that you have said be it their junior catchment or their finances i dont see this fairness from you.. to be honest which is a shame..

but i think we are going to be going around in circles.. i dont want us in before we are ready as it woudl potentially kill the club but i just dont see why there is the attitude that has appeared on this thread..

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I would change your "if sheffield have no money" i dont think its important to "have money" per ce.. as long as they dont lose money they could do it on a shoe string and still add to the comp to be honest....

How ? ? :blink: Would we need to strengthen the team ? Would our current staff be prepared to stay part time ? If not, they'd want a pay rise just to pay the bills

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How ? ? :blink: Would we need to strengthen the team ? Would our current staff be prepared to stay part time ? If not, they'd want a pay rise just to pay the bills

I dont know!! i am not the accountant nor am i the CEO of Sheffield Eagles.. i dont know what the revenue stream is nor do i know the outgoings of Sheffield Eagles at the moment. If i did then i may be able to answer that.. but as a general rule you keep within your income how they do that is up to them and how they manage their resources..

even just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..

without the books though i cannot answer how they will do it... but a 200+ page proposal to the RFL will outline it as muich as they can for the RFL to look at it and make a judgment from.. how i am supposed to summarise it in a forum post without the knoweldge i dont know.

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Sheffield didn't have much money throughout the Labour "boom years" either when they averaged 4,000 fans in Superleague, and eventually went bust.

To effectively argue once the country comes out of recession this will enable Sheffield to afford to compete in Superleague is a bit desperate.

They were merged with with Huddersfield to help both clubs, pricipally Huddersfield as it turned out due to the 1,000,000 pound bonus on offer to clubs who merged.

The point is that, when the country comes out of recession, there will be more money available on all fronts, the fans pockets, the entrepreneur investors pockets, the sponsors pockets. This can only be good for Sheffield Eagles in their efforts to improve their club in all areas. If you don't think so, well that's your view, it's not mine. A rising tide lifts all ships including, I would suspect the good ship, Sheffield Eagles. i didn'y say that the end of the recession by itself will help the Eagles to be ready for SL but it will certainly help them to improve their fiinancial position due to the availability of more cash in the economy.

The fact that the previous incarnation of the Eagles had difficulties but the present club are not only surviving but successfully so says to me that this Administration is more successful and competent than the last one and the end result of their efforts here might be different.

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I dont know!! i am not the accountant nor am i the CEO of Sheffield Eagles.. i dont know what the revenue stream is nor do i know the outgoings of Sheffield Eagles at the moment. If i did then i may be able to answer that.. but as a general rule you keep within your income how they do that is up to them and how they manage their resources..

even just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..

without the books though i cannot answer how they will do it... but a 200+ page proposal to the RFL will outline it as muich as they can for the RFL to look at it and make a judgment from.. how i am supposed to summarise it in a forum post without the knoweldge i dont know.

I see. Just idle speculation then.

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They were merged with with Huddersfield to help both clubs, pricipally Huddersfield as it turned out due to the 1,000,000 pound bonus on offer to clubs who merged.

The point is that, when the country comes out of recession, there will be more money available on all fronts, the fans pockets, the entrepreneur investors pockets, the sponsors pockets. This can only be good for Sheffield Eagles in their efforts to improve their club in all areas. If you don't think so, well that's your view, it's not mine. A rising tide lifts all ships including, I would suspect the good ship, Sheffield Eagles. i didn'y say that the end of the recession by itself will help the Eagles to be ready for SL but it will certainly help them to improve their fiinancial position due to the availability of more cash in the economy.

The fact that the previous incarnation of the Eagles had difficulties but the present club are not only surviving but successfully so says to me that this Administration is more successful and competent than the last one and the end result of their efforts here might be different.

The previous incarnation is still trading - as Huddersfield Giants, of course. Let's not do the pre-1999 entity down too much, pal.

Anyway - so why will the next "boom" be different from previous "booms" ?

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Different clubs will take different approaches, that's a given. For me there is only one approach, you build a strong club (business) and from that you build a team. The recent traditional approach is to build a team and hope some business follows to pay for it.

A lot of early rugby clubs were formed from successful businesses forming sporting clubs, not from sporting clubs trying to become successful businesses.

Don't you think that's exactly what Sheffield are doing?

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I wouldnt agree that just Super League clubs stimulate the junior game.. i think ALL clubs help stimulate the game.

Well over 100 first XV11 SL players are from SL towns and less than 40 are from Championship towns.

What's your point? Mine is that you need SL clubs where you are most likely to find quality young rugby players.

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Was it not Ralph Rimmer who helped greatly in the demise of Sheffield Eagles Mk 1? He moved things to Huddersfield and left Sheffield with nothing. Think he was involved.

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I would change your "if sheffield have no money" i dont think its important to "have money" per ce.. as long as they dont lose money they could do it on a shoe string and still add to the comp to be honest..

In 2003 Halifax did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

In 2005 Leigh did it on a shoestring. I suggest you have a look at what they did.

Not sure of your point - what exactly is it Sheffield can add to the competition on a shoestring budget?

It won't be fans, nobody wants to watch a losing team or cricket scores. It won't therefore be money and it won't be an expansion of the professional RL playing pool - well maybe the odd quality player who will be off to a bigger club??

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Well over 100 first XV11 SL players are from SL towns and less than 40 are from Championship towns.

What's your point? Mine is that you need SL clubs where you are most likely to find quality young rugby players.

Hold on - did you not imply somewhere earlier on this vast thread that kids wanted to be SL players because there was a SL club there ? :blink:

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I see. Just idle speculation then.

no not at all... its quite obvious that you can run a team/club on income without a huge influx of money and without making a loss (they are doing it at the moment) there is no reason why they cannot then take this up to the next level...

you asked me for how this can happen which i cannot say.. what i can tell you s that if you dont spend all your income on expenditure then you wont lose money.. i pointed out they will get more money from sky than they do at the moment.. its not idle speculation its obvious that it can be done..

With your specific questions.. i dont know if we need to strenghten the team.. it probably wouldnt hurt but would we be able to mix it with the rest, debatable.. would it cost the earth to do this or would this be covered by the Sky money.. well that depends on the managment and how good they are at negotiating contracts and getting the right standard of player for the right price.. Back room staff, i expect most will want to go full time, i expect we could afford it with the sky money but it depends on the player budget, it also depends on what other income is brought in by going up to Super League..

I cannot tell you what the balance sheet looks like so for indepth "how would they do it" i cannot tell you, but i can give you the basics of how it can work.. and it can.. you jsut spend less than you earn..

it wasnt even sepcualtion its basic business management and it can be done. the idea you MUST have huge amounts of money is not true, maybe to win super league but to compete i dont think you do.

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Was it not Ralph Rimmer who helped greatly in the demise of Sheffield Eagles Mk 1? He moved things to Huddersfield and left Sheffield with nothing. Think he was involved.

Arrant nonsense. He didn't "help in the demise" and it certainly wasn't his decision to "move things to Huddersfield".

Maybe Ken Davy had something to do with that decision. Being the owner, like. :happy:

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just at a glance you can see that revenue would rise because of the grant from the RFL without anything else and as such they will be able to pay more to the staff.. so there will be rises in income so you can raise your expenditure..

I think Sheffield will turn over something approaching £1M that's what you have to turn over to get in Superleague.

I think Les Catalans are budgeting to turn over £5.6M I think we are looking at SL turnovers of over £4M.

Add Sheffields £1M to the SLY money of £1.2M and you can see how massively far behind the Eagles will be.

So that may help???

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no not at all... its quite obvious that you can run a team/club on income without a huge influx of money and without making a loss (they are doing it at the moment) there is no reason why they cannot then take this up to the next level...

you asked me for how this can happen which i cannot say.. what i can tell you s that if you dont spend all your income on expenditure then you wont lose money.. i pointed out they will get more money from sky than they do at the moment.. its not idle speculation its obvious that it can be done..

With your specific questions.. i dont know if we need to strenghten the team.. it probably wouldnt hurt but would we be able to mix it with the rest, debatable.. would it cost the earth to do this or would this be covered by the Sky money.. well that depends on the managment and how good they are at negotiating contracts and getting the right standard of player for the right price.. Back room staff, i expect most will want to go full time, i expect we could afford it with the sky money but it depends on the player budget, it also depends on what other income is brought in by going up to Super League..

I cannot tell you what the balance sheet looks like so for indepth "how would they do it" i cannot tell you, but i can give you the basics of how it can work.. and it can.. you jsut spend less than you earn..

it wasnt even sepcualtion its basic business management and it can be done. the idea you MUST have huge amounts of money is not true, maybe to win super league but to compete i dont think you do.

I can see we need you in club administration.

You don't know what the balance sheet looks like. Well, it's available at Companies House for a quid, along with the profit and loss account. Profit of just under £10000 for the year. Six figure excess of liabilities over assets.

They've stopped digging the hole but it's not being back-filled all that quickly.

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He also said the salary cap was too high (an extremely interesting comment).

He also conceded that if the cap was lowered the big clubs should be given dispensation to pay for the game's marquee players.

But regardless of his mooted changes for the salary cap system Andrew Glover got 8,000 fans into Belle Vue and I'd guess he'll project more at Newmarket.

It may well be the case "a well run club can indeed hack it in SL without a sugar daddy" and the RFL have given Mr. Khan a chance to also prove that, but part of "well run" includes 10,000 crowds.

Not 1,600 or 2,000 or even 4,500. So again let's all face the reality.

So London, Wakefield, Hull KR, Widnes, Catalans, Salford, Huddersfield, Castleford, that's 50% of your lauded SL, are not well run, according to your post. We had better radically restructure the whole game and have a 7 team SL averaging over 10,000 fans and eject the rest. You might have only 6 if the Bulls fans don't turn up to see a weak team on expensive season tickets.

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