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Roy Boy

Oh Dear! Salford in bother

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Where I live in Oldham is exactly half way between Huddersfield and Barton - which is the same distance from Wigan (another 'manchester' team) to Barton.

In fact, its only a couple more miles to travel to Wigan from Oldham, so why on earth would RL followers in Oldham choos Salford? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Salford will simply not attract fans from any other 'manchester' clubs Parky.

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Where I live in Oldham is exactly half way between Huddersfield and Barton - which is the same distance from Wigan (another 'manchester' team) to Barton.

In fact, its only a couple more miles to travel to Wigan from Oldham, so why on earth would RL followers in Oldham choos Salford? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Salford will simply not attract fans from any other 'manchester' clubs Parky.

I didn't suggest all Oldham fans would flock to Salford. Most of them are probably long gone from the game anyway - it's more about the new fans of the game. What I did suggest is that Salford as the SL incumbent for the area should TRY to get fans from Oldham Rochdale Bury, Sale etc etc etc.

Leeds attract fans from Hunslet, Hunslet attracts fans from Wakefield, Bradford attracts fans from Leeds, Wigan attract fans from all over.

With respect people can't put RL fans in boxes, and new fans will go where they want because they can, and they do.

Anecdotal evidence is that some Oldham based people like to go to watch Wigan nowadays.

It may well be the case, and (as you suggest Wigan is just as far as Salford), that Oldham people who fancy an SL game already go to Wigan. Padge says the trains from Manchester Picadilly on Wigan match days have RL fans heading out that way.

If that is the case - and I concede it may be then Salford's dismal efforts over many years have failed and "Lancashire" can only support four Superleague clubs - and even that is debatable. The empty new stadium probably confirms this, the mass withdrawal of Wilkinson and his board maybe also confirms this.

BUT If Salford fight on in SL then they have to look to get fans from all around the M60, whether they would get them with a new board running the club I don't know and I bow to your opinion they probably would not.

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I didn't suggest all Oldham fans would flock to Salford. Most of them are probably long gone from the game anyway - it's more about the new fans of the game. What I did suggest is that Salford as the SL incumbent for the area should TRY to get fans from Oldham Rochdale Bury, Sale etc etc etc.

Leeds attract fans from Hunslet, Hunslet attracts fans from Wakefield, Bradford attracts fans from Leeds, Wigan attract fans from all over.

With respect people can't put RL fans in boxes, and new fans will go where they want because they can, and they do.

Anecdotal evidence is that some Oldham based people like to go to watch Wigan nowadays.

It may well be the case, and (as you suggest Wigan is just as far as Salford), that Oldham people who fancy an SL game already go to Wigan. Padge says the trains from Manchester Picadilly on Wigan match days have RL fans heading out that way.

If that is the case - and I concede it may be then Salford's dismal efforts over many years have failed and "Lancashire" can only support four Superleague clubs - and even that is debatable. The empty new stadium probably confirms this, the mass withdrawal of Wilkinson and his board maybe also confirms this.

BUT If Salford fight on in SL then they have to look to get fans from all around the M60, whether they would get them with a new board running the club I don't know and I bow to your opinion they probably would not.

1. We agree on something - many RL fans are 'long gone from the game' anyway - but will 'new fans' in the area choose Salford? Given a choice of course not.

2. Manchester already has its SL club that it can sustain - Wigan.

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1. We agree on something - many RL fans are 'long gone from the game' anyway - but will 'new fans' in the area choose Salford? Given a choice of course not.

2. Manchester already has its SL club that it can sustain - Wigan.

We may well agree on most things. It's just not as easy to clearly discuss issues via typed messages.

Taking your point on......

For me the Liverpool/merseyside area already has the SL club it can sustain - Saints.

And the Cheshire area maybe already has the SL club it can sustain - Warrington.

Sit back with a map of the old Lancashire areas draw three big circles around the three clubs until they overlap and that's maybe something like what Mo Lyndsay was trying to draw in 1995.

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We may well agree on most things. It's just not as easy to clearly to discuss issues via typed messages.

Taking your point on......

For me the Liverpool/merseyside area already has the SL club it can sustain - Saints.

And the Cheshire area maybe already has the SL club it can sustain - Warrington.

Sit back with a map of the old Lancashire areas draw three big circles around the three clubs and that's maybe something like what Mo Lyndsay was trying to draw in 1995.

Perhaps a 'regional' Super League of 8 or 10 teams is the way to go for them, with a completely separate Championship containing the rest - similar to country clubs in Aus.

There would then be no point to the licensing nonsense and chamionship clubs could simply concentrate reaching the pinnacle - as Sheffield have done. Problems solved!

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On a technical note, if Salford do go into administration, what happens with them for next season? I'd quite like a sensible answer, but looking at the way this thread's been veering I suspect I'm whistling in the wind here.

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I am not advocating SL for Oldham,just a sucessful team at CC level and promotion from CC1. If that is achieved and some sort of improvement of the ground is made, then further plans can be formjulated. After all, it is no so long ago that they were not even based in Oldham,so they are not at complete rock bottom.

What exactly are you asking for here, Oldham control their own destiny don't they? It is their fault they aren't at the top of the SL, Championship or wherever.

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Perhaps a 'regional' Super League of 8 or 10 teams is the way to go for them, with a completely separate Championship containing the rest - similar to country clubs in Aus.There would then be no point to the licensing nonsense and chamionship clubs could simply concentrate reaching the pinnacle - as Sheffield have done. Problems solved!

Firstly I agree the problem is that you have small clubs who cannot hope to compete with Leeds, Wire, Saints, Wigan, Hull, Catalans going on and on about Superleague all the time but never putting the two million pounds a year on the table to show they are serious and can do it. That only gets the fans going on and on, and it all becomes negative and everyone gets all unhappy!

It was a marvellous moment when Sheffield came back from the dead several years ago to lift the grand final trophy this season, and within days it was all forgotten as everyone started to go on and on about how the eagles should be in Superleague.

No disrespect to any club or any RL person at all but haven't Wakefield, Salford, Bradford, Castleford and HKR shown how darn difficult it is to compete in Superleague? Or have these clubs simply been "badly managed" which is always what's chucked at them.

Lyndsay wanted clubs to be bigger sitting on bigger areas and that was all poo pooed. Merging on the ridiculous eh? Well for me - and again NO DISRESPECT going round dreaming how clubs with no money, few fans and no pro player development systems can just go into SL and compete - now that IS "ridiculous".

The collapse of the rump end of superleague is often treated (with "ridiculous" glee) as proof Lyndsay and his selfish super dooper league would one day get their commupance. Now it's all unravelling we are told it's time to lower the cap right down, return to P & R, and get the family of RL back together. Shake hands and forget trying to compete with RU & Soccer. We'll be fine.

Will we really??? Was it really all fine in 1995?? Were the changes made just a "ridiculous" idea???

If Salford go and O'Connor also doesn't get his 8,000 it just may leave Lancashire where Lyndsay probably wanted it to go. Three big clubs with all the players and fans. So the collapse of the rump of Superleague may actually be it's saviour.

Now all RL fans in the north west can go to St.Helens, Wigan and Warrington and all the best kids can aspire one day to play for these giants of the game, who can now pinch more fans from trad club areas.

Mr. Lyndsay probably has a wry smile on his face.

As for the 8-10 teams you suggest, the courting of Touluse is clearly to add another region as obviously there is a shortage of clubs who could be viable in SL. A ten club league picks itself - three Lancs, three Yorkshire, One Hull, One London and two France.

But I suspect 12 clubs with Millionaires still being allowed to prop the other two up, whilst "something turns up".....

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On a technical note, if Salford do go into administration, what happens with them for next season? I'd quite like a sensible answer, but looking at the way this thread's been veering I suspect I'm whistling in the wind here.

I would assume it would be much like Bradford earlier in the year, with regards to their licence. Any points deduction will be from the 2013 league table. If they go into liquidation, then the RFL will have to agree to accept their memebership back of the new owners (if there are any) and then decide which league they will play in (which i would assume again would be SL)

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What are you suggesting?

That you interpret this as Salford going into administration?

Yes. Any shock in that after 8 pages?

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On a technical note, if Salford do go into administration, what happens with them for next season? I'd quite like a sensible answer, but looking at the way this thread's been veering I suspect I'm whistling in the wind here.

I don't know what you mean by "veering" Salford's struggle is a struggle that is magnified greatly by them being in Superleague where the stadium and the fans have not delivered. Nothings veered as far as I can see?? The repurcussions are fair game for debate.

As for what happens next year, it depends on if anyone rescues them. If they do then they may be waved back in to complete this license, but will they be given any tacit guarantee for 2015. I very much doubt it and there is the catch 22.

If the RFL/SLE are not planning for Salford to be in SL come 2015 (forget the licensing commitee rubbish) then who in their right mind would spend a penny on them.

That may leave 13 in SL for two years, but look what happened last time - Fev, Leigh and Fax were going to be offered the extra place. here's the second catch 22 - would any of these clubs want to risk going skint like Salford trying to make the numbers up for the RFL only to be booted out again 2015.

Hope I didn't veer too far off track there ;):D

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Yes. Any shock in that after 8 pages?

No - you got that bang on right Ackers!

Are you going to launch into a giant condemnation of the club a la Bradford?

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Firstly I agree the problem is that you have small clubs who cannot hope to compete with Leeds, Wire, Saints, Wigan, Hull, Catalans going on and on about Superleague all the time but never putting the two million pounds a year on the table to show they are serious and can do it. That only gets the fans going on and on, and it all becomes negative and everyone gets all unhappy!

It was a marvellous moment when Sheffield came back from the dead several years ago to lift the grand final trophy this season, and within days it was all forgotten as everyone started to go on and on about how the eagles should be in Superleague.

No disrespect to any club or any RL person at all but haven't Wakefield, Salford, Bradford, Castleford and HKR shown how darn difficult it is to compete in Superleague? Or have these clubs simply been "badly managed" which is always what's chucked at them.

Lyndsay wanted clubs to be bigger sitting on bigger areas and that was all poo pooed. Merging on the ridiculous eh? Well for me - and again NO DISRESPECT going round dreaming how clubs with no money, few fans and no pro player development systems can just go into SL and compete - now that IS "ridiculous".

The collapse of the rump end of superleague is often treated (with "ridiculous" glee) as proof Lyndsay and his selfish super dooper league would one day get their commupance. Now it's all unravelling we are told it's time to lower the cap right down, return to P & R, and get the family of RL back together. Shake hands and forget trying to compete with RU & Soccer. We'll be fine.

Will we really??? Was it really all fine in 1995?? Were the changes made just a "ridiculous" idea???

If Salford go and O'Connor also doesn't get his 8,000 it just may leave Lancashire where Lyndsay probably wanted it to go. Three big clubs with all the players and fans. So the collapse of the rump of Superleague may actually be it's saviour.

Now all RL fans in the north west can go to St.Helens, Wigan and Warrington and all the best kids can aspire one day to play for these giants of the game, who can now pinch more fans from trad club areas.

Mr. Lyndsay probably has a wry smile on his face.

As for the 8-10 teams you suggest, the courting of Touluse is clearly to add another region as obviously there is a shortage of clubs who could be viable in SL. A ten club league picks itself - three Lancs, three Yorkshire, One Hull, One London and two France.

But I suspect 12 clubs with Millionaires still being allowed to prop the other two up, whilst "something turns up".....

OK - so let's have some honesty from the RFL, stop the licensing nonsense, go to 10 teams, 'officially' close off the possibility of P&R by any means and get on with it for god's sake! At least everybody would know where they stand.......or does the RFL want to be seen to have a pyramid structure like football where a team can climb from the bottom to the top (a la Wimbledon)?

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Well. A veryInteresting discussion and some good points - but sadly, its back to the here and now lads!

If we don't get a new owner / cash injection by Friday there cpuldl be either a 13 team SL next year or a new lamb to the slaughter! :unsure:

I know it's our clubs own fault, we would deserve and I would expect to be kicked out of SL. I know we are one of the smaller and less glamourous clubs and that not too many will be bothered outside our supporters.

But what is really getting to me is that we are being told nowt! At the moment we have 14 contracted players for next season (plus remaining U/20's), no money to pay bills and no idea of what to expect. It is a horrible feeling. I just wish someone would give an idea of what will happen if we do or dont get a new buyer. If it means Championship 1 and a new start so be it I will still go to matches. If it means out of business end of the line - why is the RFL not getting involved? If Our club needs £150000 to stay in business why dont they ask for our help as its supporters? Maybe we could knock a dent into the bill even though we are not that many and in a poor area. We are being met with bland statements and nothing else - its not the best .... :( Maybe it will work out ok, who knows, I hope so.

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Well. A veryInteresting discussion and some good points - but sadly, its back to the here and now lads!

If we don't get a new owner / cash injection by Friday there cpuldl be either a 13 team SL next year or a new lamb to the slaughter! :unsure:

I know it's our clubs own fault, we would deserve and I would expect to be kicked out of SL. I know we are one of the smaller and less glamourous clubs and that not too many will be bothered outside our supporters.

But what is really getting to me is that we are being told nowt! At the moment we have 14 contracted players for next season (plus remaining U/20's), no money to pay bills and no idea of what to expect. It is a horrible feeling. I just wish someone would give an idea of what will happen if we do or dont get a new buyer. If it means Championship 1 and a new start so be it I will still go to matches. If it means out of business end of the line - why is the RFL not getting involved? If Our club needs £150000 to stay in business why dont they ask for our help as its supporters? Maybe we could knock a dent into the bill even though we are not that many and in a poor area. We are being met with bland statements and nothing else - its not the best .... :( Maybe it will work out ok, who knows, I hope so.

I honestly do feel for you, having had first had experience of what you are going through. You'd be welcomed with open arms in the Championships and suspect you won't be the last SL club to go the same way.

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Firstly I agree the problem is that you have small clubs who cannot hope to compete with Leeds, Wire, Saints, Wigan, Hull, Catalans going on and on about Superleague all the time but never putting the two million pounds a year on the table to show they are serious and can do it. That only gets the fans going on and on, and it all becomes negative and everyone gets all unhappy!

It was a marvellous moment when Sheffield came back from the dead several years ago to lift the grand final trophy this season, and within days it was all forgotten as everyone started to go on and on about how the eagles should be in Superleague.

No disrespect to any club or any RL person at all but haven't Wakefield, Salford, Bradford, Castleford and HKR shown how darn difficult it is to compete in Superleague? Or have these clubs simply been "badly managed" which is always what's chucked at them.

Lyndsay wanted clubs to be bigger sitting on bigger areas and that was all poo pooed. Merging on the ridiculous eh? Well for me - and again NO DISRESPECT going round dreaming how clubs with no money, few fans and no pro player development systems can just go into SL and compete - now that IS "ridiculous".

The collapse of the rump end of superleague is often treated (with "ridiculous" glee) as proof Lyndsay and his selfish super dooper league would one day get their commupance. Now it's all unravelling we are told it's time to lower the cap right down, return to P & R, and get the family of RL back together. Shake hands and forget trying to compete with RU & Soccer. We'll be fine.

Will we really??? Was it really all fine in 1995?? Were the changes made just a "ridiculous" idea???

If Salford go and O'Connor also doesn't get his 8,000 it just may leave Lancashire where Lyndsay probably wanted it to go. Three big clubs with all the players and fans. So the collapse of the rump of Superleague may actually be it's saviour.

Now all RL fans in the north west can go to St.Helens, Wigan and Warrington and all the best kids can aspire one day to play for these giants of the game, who can now pinch more fans from trad club areas.

Mr. Lyndsay probably has a wry smile on his face.

As for the 8-10 teams you suggest, the courting of Touluse is clearly to add another region as obviously there is a shortage of clubs who could be viable in SL. A ten club league picks itself - three Lancs, three Yorkshire, One Hull, One London and two France.

But I suspect 12 clubs with Millionaires still being allowed to prop the other two up, whilst "something turns up".....

Great post Parky but again it makes me wonder why you're so keen to preserve Wakefield and Castleford in SL and makes many of your comments in the Cas thread seem highly hypocritical.

I agree with pretty much everything you say in this post.

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Manchester already has its SL club that it can sustain - Wigan.

No-one in Manchester supports Wigan. Salford are definitely strategically important to SL and if the RFL was more brave and trimmed to about 12 clubs and did away with licensing (instead declaring fixed franchises subject, of course, to continued popularity and profitability) there would I suspect be no shortage of investors for them, possibly rebranding to include Manchester in their name.

Manchester is prime time RL development territory, the problem is simply that Salford have been rooted to the foot of the hierarchy too long. Do away with the hierarchy and they'd benefit more than any existing side, along with the sport.

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1. If we don't get a new owner / cash injection by Friday there could be either a 13 team SL next year or a new lamb to the slaughter! :unsure:

2. I know it's our clubs own fault, we would deserve and I would expect to be kicked out of SL.

3. If it means Championship 1 and a new start so be it I will still go to matches. If it means out of business end of the line - why is the RFL not getting involved? If Our club needs £150000 to stay in business why dont they ask for our help as its supporters? Maybe we could knock a dent into the bill even though we are not that many and in a poor area.

1. Who in the Championship would take on Salford's place for two years, losing money only to risk getting cut again, and then possibly collapsing?

2. WRONG with respect, Salford were right to work their way to Barton and just see if the impetus of a new ground would work. Mr. Wilkinson and his board walking away after what? 20 odd years or more seems to provide the answer on that. But I'm firmly of the belief he had to roll that dice one last time.

3. So what is it you want saving? RL clubs tend not to die (Bramley maybe) just because they go through administration. I'd rest assured you will get a championship salford.

But why would Mr. Wilkinson take your money if he would only lose it down a big black tax hole?? Who would this be "saving the business for" nobody wants it so far do they? As for the RFL they stepped in and bought Odsal and SLE stepped in to make an offer for the Bulls.

Time yet for a rescue, but events may go on to show just who is lined up for 2012 and who is not.

I'm deeply boring myself now predicting a 12 club SL at every turn, but it is the case that a couple of clubs who gave up the ghost were rescued, and others giving up the ghost, oddly after only one year of this licence period don't seem to be getting the same help from RFL/SLE.

Perhaps there's some writing on some wall somewhere.

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No-one in Manchester supports Wigan.

Keeny mate they do.

A group of oldham lads share transport to the JJB and on matchdays manchester people get the train to Wigan, Padge has witnessed that.

People in west Leeds (Bramley) and south Leeds (Hunslet) support leeds in north Leeds, several thousand I'd guess.

People travel to watch who they want where they want and most people watch SL.

The area has been presented with an SL side in a brand new stadium and the prelude to that was 10,000 RL fans at the last match at the Willows.

The fans voted no to Salford

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No-one in Manchester supports Wigan. Salford are definitely strategically important to SL and if the RFL was more brave and trimmed to about 12 clubs and did away with licensing (instead declaring fixed franchises subject, of course, to continued popularity and profitability) there would I suspect be no shortage of investors for them, possibly rebranding to include Manchester in their name.

Manchester is prime time RL development territory, the problem is simply that Salford have been rooted to the foot of the hierarchy too long. Do away with the hierarchy and they'd benefit more than any existing side, along with the sport.

Oh yes they do - take a walk around and you will see 20 Wigan shirts to any other one.

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Keeny mate they do.

A group of oldham lads share transport to the JJB and on matchdays manchester people get the train to Wigan, Padge has witnessed that.

People in west Leeds (Bramley) and south Leeds (Hunslet) support leeds in north Leeds, several thousand I'd guess.

People travel to watch who they want where they want and most people watch SL.

The area has been presented with an SL side in a brand new stadium and the prelude to that was 10,000 RL fans at the last match at the Willows.

The fans voted no to Salford

I’ve met Wigan fans in Manchester but they’ve been students or other exiles. Regular Mancs don’t really bother with RL, they’ll generally say “I sort of follow Salford” but that’s as much as you’ll get. They’re sport mad so will watch any big RL game if it’s on the telly but they have their big football teams and that’s generally enough for them. Show them a Northern sport they already know with 10/12 teams any of whom can win the league or finish bottom (without penalty) a la NRL and I just think it’s a no-brainer, you’d have 12K at Salford before you could say “Our kid”.

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Oh yes they do - take a walk around and you will see 20 Wigan shirts to any other one.

Obviously everyone's experience is different but in the 7 years I've lived in Manchester I've seen precious little of either. I'd say Salford and Wigan were about on a par when I do spot them though.

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I’ve met Wigan fans in Manchester but they’ve been students or other exiles. Regular Mancs don’t really bother with RL, they’ll generally say “I sort of follow Salford” but that’s as much as you’ll get. They’re sport mad so will watch any big RL game if it’s on the telly but they have their big football teams and that’s generally enough for them. Show them a Northern sport they already know with 10/12 teams any of whom can win the league or finish bottom (without penalty) a la NRL and I just think it’s a no-brainer, you’d have 12K at Salford before you could say “Our kid”.

So the Leeds supporter I was talking to in the Anvil, who changed trains in Manchester and caught the Wigan train from Piccadilly, to Wigan who was suprised at just how many people got on the train to Wigan wearing Wigan colours just happened to have caught the one train that every WIganer living in Manchester decided to catch. OK.

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