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foozler

Oldham

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1. They are all from the south east and have all gone to the south easts Superleague club.

2. If London can spend full salary cap they will retain players. Some may still go north, but this is whole point of having an area other than the M62 for player development. this is the point made by the RFL, SLE and commentators in RL World.

This is why they put up with the low attendances. Now go and bother someone else please.

Louis Mcarthy Scarsbrook is the first one to be snapped up, full cap or not. I think it's great that the London megopolis and anywhere else can produce pro players. The point I was making was 1. that they are not produced in the Broncos area which is the criticism you were throwing at the Northern clubs we have been discussing and 2. That the power elite of SL will sign away your best players, salary cap or not. The players want to play for the best, win things and get international recognition.

If you don't like to discuss my points, then just withdraw from the argument. Don't get rude and puerile.

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If you "can be bothered" to do your research one club in Oldham only fields young sides because the junior section had collapsed in the past. They are trying to start again ;)

I merely pointed out that there was more to rugby league in the Keighley area than one BARLA side and the Cougars youth side (which is independent of the Cougars anyway). There is quite a lot going on in NW Yorkshire and that includes youth RL.

I don't claim to be authority on it as it's been a few years since I live in the area just that you shouldn't assume that it doesn't exist because you have't heard of it.

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1. They are all from the south east and have all gone to the south easts Superleague club.

2. If London can spend full salary cap they will retain players. Some may still go north, but this is whole point of having an area other than the M62 for player development. this is the point made by the RFL, SLE and commentators in RL World.

This is why they put up with the low attendances. Now go and bother someone else please.

That would be like me claiming that if Keighley had been promoted to SL, they'd have signed all of Bradford's best players if they had been able to pay the full salary cap.

We know that London cannot pay its players that amount of cash that is why they leave.

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West Cumbria may be thin on population but it remains relatively string in its production of players.

Barnoldswick are noted as a town of just under 11,000. Name me another town town of a similar size in or out of the heartlands who have 4 open age ARL teams plus have supplied part-time pro RL players to the Championship and to Wigan's Scholarship teams in the past 12months.

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We know that London cannot pay its players that amount of cash that is why they leave.

Broncos paid around full salary cap this year, check the record.

The problem was a (sadly) poor choice of coach.

Once Rae came in they whupped everyone and put 62 past Wire.

:D

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I merely............

.......had a go at me for not checking the facts then you decided to do your dreamland stuff suggesting clubs with teams at a low age range were starting out to great things, when in fact if you had looked it up one in Oldham were trying to start again after collapse.

I trawled through all the clubs to see where players were born and where they played their junior RL, and who signed them, yet you sat in Turin and thought "how can I have a go at Parky" and decided to accuse me of no research. It's quite insulting.

You lambast London and Wales, you dream of tiny clubs going from strength to strength, you said "bottom up" was the way despite finite resources, no logical explanation, no historical precedents, and ignoring completely the monetary side of things which is dire for the game.

Once I argue you down you start to make small points that become light years away from the debate like there's a couple of little kids teams in tiny Barnoldswick. I'm pleased about that fact but it does nothing to further the debate.

Due to a severe lack of money, due to such a tiny proportion of kids playing RL in this country, due to most paying sports fans preferring soccer and RU it's a struggle and always will be, and I do not think anything will change if people simply try to dream a better future. I'm not interested in dreams any more, the game can only go forward facing reality.

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.......

You lambast London and Wales, you dream of tiny clubs going from strength to strength, you said "bottom up" was the way despite finite resources, no logical explanation, no historical precedents, and ignoring completely the monetary side of things which is dire for the game.

Once I argue you down you start to make small points that become light years away from the debate like there's a couple of little kids teams in tiny Barnoldswick. I'm pleased about that fact but it does nothing to further the debate.

Due to a severe lack of money, due to such a tiny proportion of kids playing RL in this country, due to most paying sports fans preferring soccer and RU it's a struggle and always will be, and I do not think anything will change if people simply try to dream a better future. I'm not interested in dreams any more, the game can only go forward facing reality.

With respect, Top down in Wales has proved a disaster twice and bottom up seems to be more stable in the guise of the North and South Wales clubs. This debate has been engaged in before and there is room for both models. London are a hybrid. They were founded as a top down club as Fulham even though they had to start in the 2nd division. That model failed and they continued life as a bottom up club, relying on local players and some journeyman backpacking Aussies. Their very survival at that level meant they were in existence to be elevated to SL at it's inception to once again pursue the top down method. This thread is about a small ( now) club, Oldham, and it's attempts to survive using a bottom up method. They seem to be making slow progress from near extinction following their SL failure. It remains to be seen what the future will bring.

I must admit that I am unsure what the RFL want as regards their expansion clubs in CC1 next season. Do they want them to stabilise at that level, move onto CC via promotion eventually and then pursue a SL application with a view to expanding the geographical spread of SL or do they want them to be a nurseries for future SL players by expanding the player base into new areas. They have not said what they see as the possible future for these teams, as far as I know.

I think this thread went into the area of junior rugby in the CC teams various areas and you claimed there was none in the Keighley hinterland. The example of Barnoldswick,the Cougar Cubs and Keighley Albion ( who were running junior sides in the 1960's by the way) is relevant to answer your denial of any junior activity.

Without dreams there would be no reality. If Baskerville had not dreamed of professional rugby and a tour to the UK for New Zealand players, there would be no RL in Australia, New Zealand or maybe over here. His dreams and the execution of the reality of them saved the game.

If the RL had not dreamed of taking its RL final to a National Stage at Wembley, the biggest annual RL game in this country would not take place.

If the people running the burgeoning amateur game in London and throughout the country had not dreamed of establishing RL in these areas and followed up on their dreams, there would be no players being produced in virgin areas and that includes Barnoldswick.

If the Monssieur Barriere had not dreamed of a World Cup for RL and acted upon his vision, we would not be celebrating what might be the best ever international tournament of our game in 2013.

There needs to be dreams before there can be reality. The achievments of the game are the result of dreams being made into reality. There is a place for both dreamers and realists.

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.......had a go at me for not checking the facts then you decided to do your dreamland stuff suggesting clubs with teams at a low age range were starting out to great things, when in fact if you had looked it up one in Oldham were trying to start again after collapse.

I trawled through all the clubs to see where players were born and where they played their junior RL, and who signed them, yet you sat in Turin and thought "how can I have a go at Parky" and decided to accuse me of no research. It's quite insulting.

You lambast London and Wales, you dream of tiny clubs going from strength to strength, you said "bottom up" was the way despite finite resources, no logical explanation, no historical precedents, and ignoring completely the monetary side of things which is dire for the game.

Once I argue you down you start to make small points that become light years away from the debate like there's a couple of little kids teams in tiny Barnoldswick. I'm pleased about that fact but it does nothing to further the debate.

Due to a severe lack of money, due to such a tiny proportion of kids playing RL in this country, due to most paying sports fans preferring soccer and RU it's a struggle and always will be, and I do not think anything will change if people simply try to dream a better future. I'm not interested in dreams any more, the game can only go forward facing reality.

Having said that Keighley Albion and the Cougar Cubs were the be-all and end-all of rugby league, you should be embarrassed that you were so wrong. Instead you are back on your high horse seeing yourself as the victim.

Next time check out the facts before making bold statements.

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Broncos paid around full salary cap this year, check the record.

The problem was a (sadly) poor choice of coach.

Once Rae came in they whupped everyone and put 62 past Wire.

:D

The Wire side resting several players...

Broncos claimed to be paying full cap but I don't find it credible.

Who did they sign that is paid so much?

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West Cumbria may be thin on population but it remains relatively string in its production of players.

Barnoldswick are noted as a town of just under 11,000. Name me another town town of a similar size in or out of the heartlands who have 4 open age ARL teams plus have supplied part-time pro RL players to the Championship and to Wigan's Scholarship teams in the past 12months.

I don't think Barlick is the be-all and end-all either. I'm just pointing out that RL does exist in the area and it is not more sparsely populated that areas that Parky champions.

Had Cougarmania continued, the potential in the area was there.

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Having said that Keighley Albion and the Cougar Cubs were the be-all and end-all of rugby league, you should be embarrassed that you were so wrong

They are the be all and end all in keighley.

But somehow you have allocated barnoldswick to keighley which is as damn stupid as when you decided the midlands would be Sheffield's catchment area.

Your stupidity knows no bounds when you then assume that any decent player anywhere in the midlands would go to Sheffield and any decent barnoldswick player would go to keighley.

And this extends to further stupidity that none of these kids would go to either club if they were any good because neither is a Superleague club.

I may feel embarrassed at getting something wrong, how do you feel getting stuff wrong with such regularity?

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Had Cougarmania continued, the potential in the area was there.

Potential for what??

For a small club to do what???

Very small junior base, small fanbase even when winning and huge huge debts to get to the door of Superleague.

Even the mighty Bulls could not get much going RL wise in adjacent areas like Shipley, Bingley, Baildon, Skipton, all more likely to respond to grand final winners than huge debtors.

Just another stupid post.

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Potential for what??

For a small club to do what???

Very small junior base, small fanbase even when winning and huge huge debts to get to the door of Superleague.

Even the mighty Bulls could not get much going RL wise in adjacent areas like Shipley, Bingley, Baildon, Skipton, all more likely to respond to grand final winners than huge debtors.

Just another stupid post.

Tell you what. Why don't Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Huddersfield and the Bulls amalgamate; form one big club and then be able to maximise their investments in local talent, after all they do clutter up the same geographical area and they are in the "heartlands."

There'll be far too many youngsters then for one club to cope with. It only needs Those on the other side of the hills to do the same and we could then have an extremely interesting competition; not many fixtures mind; but we'd have 5 very well financed and viable entities slogging in out week after week.

Can't wait for the playoffs

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Tell you what. Why don't Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Huddersfield and the Bulls amalgamate; form one big club and then be able to maximise their investments in local talent, after all they do clutter up the same geographical area and they are in the "heartlands."

There'll be far too many youngsters then for one club to cope with. It only needs Those on the other side of the hills to do the same and we could then have an extremely interesting competition; not many fixtures mind; but we'd have 5 very well financed and viable entities slogging in out week after week.

Can't wait for the playoffs

Tell YOU what...Why don't you actually state your point rather than provide a joke proposition where Rugby League only has 5 clubs who play each other what?? six or seven times a year and again in the play off.

The only reason the game has it's head above water and has not been swamped by soccer and rugby Union which is mega rich compared to league is because the scant resources of the game are concentrated into an elite league that has the effect of...

1. Attracting tens of millions of pounds into the game via a TV contract

2. Providing an attraction to quality RL players such that they don't bog off to union.

3. Attracting well over 120,000 paying customers

4. Attracting respect from the media such that the game is not completely ignored

5. Attracting respect and interest from a massive swathe of the country that actually then decides to start playing and watching the game.

So if we want the game to succeed we all need to get behind Mo Lyndsay's legacy and all fans and sponsors and rich directors etc should support a league in which Wales, London, France, and eight amalgamations of M62 clubs concentrate every penny, every player, every wave of the scarf, and every cheer, into our flagship. A league in which the finance is used to balance out a competitive scenario from top to bottom.

What a brilliant league it would be, something to rival the Guiness premiership or Austraila's NRL.

Unless one does not give a toss about Rugby League in which case we should reject all SKY monies and continue to champion any underdog we can create, whilst disappearing up our own bumholes trying to recreate the past........

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Tell YOU what...Why don't you actually state your point rather than provide a joke proposition where Rugby League only has 5 clubs who play each other what?? six or seven times a year and again in the play off.

The only reason the game has it's head above water and has not been swamped by soccer and rugby Union which is mega rich compared to league is because the scant resources of the game are concentrated into an elite league that has the effect of...

1. Attracting tens of millions of pounds into the game via a TV contract

2. Providing an attraction to quality RL players such that they don't bog off to union.

3. Attracting well over 120,000 paying customers

4. Attracting respect from the media such that the game is not completely ignored

5. Attracting respect and interest from a massive swathe of the country that actually then decides to start playing and watching the game.

So if we want the game to succeed we all need to get behind Mo Lyndsay's legacy and all fans and sponsors and rich directors etc should support a league in which Wales, London, France, and eight amalgamations of M62 clubs concentrate every penny, every player, every wave of the scarf, and every cheer, into our flagship. A league in which the finance is used to balance out a competitive scenario from top to bottom.

What a brilliant league it would be, something to rival the Guiness premiership or Austraila's NRL.

Unless one does not give a toss about Rugby League in which case we should reject all SKY monies and continue to champion any underdog we can create, whilst disappearing up our own bumholes trying to recreate the past........

You've got me Parksider...I can't go.

I was merely making a suggestion that we take Mo's merger theory to a better conclusion and instead of pratting about with small change like Fev, Cas and Wakey (after all, their days must be numbered cos they're skint aren't they?), we should go the whole hog and concentrate upon a more viable proposition.

Why! we could even sell or lease Odsal to the Bronco's and let them in on it too (feeder club perhaps?).

I hear what you say and accept and respect much of what you say. You, however (along with others) poor scorn upon the views of others who want to see their team succeed. But if that team, in your view, isn't financially viable you simply dismiss them and pour scorn upon their ambitions.

The problem is you see, I support a certain team (which happens to be FEV); I'll never support another - just like many supporters of other teams.

I may be old fashioned and still living the dream. I don't apologise for that. I support my team and want to see them compete against the best.

Being old fashioned and still living the dream, I still see my team and others as part of the whole. You on the other hand seem to see my team and others as part of the problem. Ce'st La vie as they in Ponty. I just wish a definitive decision would be taken to decide our fate and either let us continue with the dream or cast us out of the "club". If it was the latter I'm sure we and others would survive in a league of our own - without any future RFL interference.

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1. You've got me Parksider...I can't go.

2. I hear what you say and accept and respect much of what you say. You, however (along with others) poor scorn upon the views of others who want to see their team succeed. But if that team, in your view, isn't financially viable you simply dismiss them and pour scorn upon their ambitions.

1. You did go and produced an excellent reply.

2. I understand what you are saying but seriously it’s not like that. Of course the natural ambition of any club fan will see them post on here about Super League ambitions, often led on by their directors own public announcements about next stop Superleague.

I have a choice of shutting up or just saying “yeh go for it” or engaging in a debate about these ambitions. I choose to politely and gently suggest that such ambitions need millions which CC clubs don’t have, Pro players which CC clubs even with academies don’t produce and if they do don’t keep, and fans which CC clubs do not have in the numbers necessary for SL.

All these facts are easy to prove the figures are there and even your own club shows annual losses in the accounts, low crowds that can’t grow five fold in the current circumstances, and a great record of producing pro players from Fev/Ponte but none of whom stay.

But there’s no scorn. I support Fev having a go as they have never had a chance for Superleague. I support the idea if Wakey and Cas collapse due to ground problems Fev on their own in Superleague could draw the Calder area together to be one big force to break the status quo. You have a money man who may just back you. I’ve posted these things for years now. Scorn?? No I don’t think so. The record doesn’t show that.

Yes I’m guilty of scorn but it’s invariably heaped on a very small minority on here who do not engage in any debate, they take a view that suits and contrive answer after answer that supports a view such as Leigh, Oldham, Sheffield, Keighley etc can “grow” to be successes in Superleague when nothing backs those views at all.

The “scorn” is not for those clubs or their fans who want a sensible debate, it is for the ridiculously contrived answers from the few usual suspects. OK they are free to dream, but if they dream on here others - as you say not just myself - are free to counter their “arguments” and I choose to do so. In turn they choose to come back at me time and time again until the point of the debate is lost and all they are trying to do is trip me up on the tiniest thing which usually backfires.

The big thing is they are the ones who refuse to agree to disagree. You'd best see them not me.....

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I was merely making a suggestion that we take Mo's merger theory to a better conclusion and instead of pratting about with small change like Fev, Cas and Wakey (after all, their days must be numbered cos they're skint aren't they?), we should go the whole hog and concentrate upon a more viable proposition.

Being old fashioned and still living the dream, I still see my team and others as part of the whole. You on the other hand seem to see my team and others as part of the problem.

The problem is you see, I support a certain team (which happens to be FEV); I'll never support another - just like many supporters of other teams.

By all means live the dream, but live and let me live the reality.

No Cas, Wakey and Fev are not skint they are rich. They are rich in quality local players and they are rich in the number of fans, they have a richer RL culture than anywhere in the northern hemisphere IMHO.

I understand entirely the problem that some people do not want their clubs to merge, but live and let live - other people DO.

But I do not advocate mergers at all because it's not my shout - go have a vote.

As for Fev being a "problem" it's up to them what they do and don't forget Cas choose to maintain their independence and so do Wakefield so IF I did see Fev as a "problem" (which I don't, they are no problem to me) then ipso facto so are Wakefield and Cas.

All I see is the logic in Lyndsays plans. I see the difficulties in it ever happening as he planned it, and I see a small cabal of clubs who are making something like it happen with the help of the RFL such that your either in or your frozen out probably for good for many.

As above I've set out what could be done if people want RL to succeed in all it's laid bare glory. Whether I want that to happen is neither here nor there, and if I am honest I want nothing to do with getting behind any schemes - whether it's the preservation of the past or it's demolition.

But I do love to follow these events and comment and debate on them.

Don't shoot the messenger.....

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1. You did go and produced an excellent reply.

2. I understand what you are saying but seriously it’s not like that. Of course the natural ambition of any club fan will see them post on here about Super League ambitions, often led on by their directors own public announcements about next stop Superleague.

I have a choice of shutting up or just saying “yeh go for it” or engaging in a debate about these ambitions. I choose to politely and gently suggest that such ambitions need millions which CC clubs don’t have, Pro players which CC clubs even with academies don’t produce and if they do don’t keep, and fans which CC clubs do not have in the numbers necessary for SL.

All these facts are easy to prove the figures are there and even your own club shows annual losses in the accounts, low crowds that can’t grow five fold in the current circumstances, and a great record of producing pro players from Fev/Ponte but none of whom stay.

But there’s no scorn. I support Fev having a go as they have never had a chance for Superleague. I support the idea if Wakey and Cas collapse due to ground problems Fev on their own in Superleague could draw the Calder area together to be one big force to break the status quo. You have a money man who may just back you. I’ve posted these things for years now. Scorn?? No I don’t think so. The record doesn’t show that.

Yes I’m guilty of scorn but it’s invariably heaped on a very small minority on here who do not engage in any debate, they take a view that suits and contrive answer after answer that supports a view such as Leigh, Oldham, Sheffield, Keighley etc can “grow” to be successes in Superleague when nothing backs those views at all.

The “scorn” is not for those clubs or their fans who want a sensible debate, it is for the ridiculously contrived answers from the few usual suspects. OK they are free to dream, but if they dream on here others - as you say not just myself - are free to counter their “arguments” and I choose to do so. In turn they choose to come back at me time and time again until the point of the debate is lost and all they are trying to do is trip me up on the tiniest thing which usually backfires.

The big thing is they are the ones who refuse to agree to disagree. You'd best see them not me.....

Those people who think they know everything and are totally sure that there position is engraved on tablets from God are particularly annoying to those of us who think differenttly.

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All I see is the logic in Lyndsays plans. I see the difficulties in it ever happening as he planned it, and I see a small cabal of clubs who are making something like it happen with the help of the RFL such that your either in or your frozen out probably for good for many.

You seem to have to have adopted Lyndsay as the prophet of Rugby League and his ideas a tablets from the mountain. In reality he ran Wigan into the ground but caused them to be so dominant in the process that he damaged the other clubs who could not compete. He then was RL chairman of the game he had helped to wreck and was staring extinction in the face when Murdoch, for reasons completely related to his struggles with Kerry Packer in Australia, came riding to the rescue with the Sky money. Lyndsay was in the right place at the right time and he and the game were lucky. Do you think the merger proposals were Lyndsay's or Murdoch wishing to save money by only having to finance a smaller number of clubs.

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets. Perhaps he didn't want to shoot his beloved Wigan just the other inconvenient nonentities deemed worth of sacrifice.

The SL you propose of two French and a Welsh team, two of the three being at present being a pipe dream and a fantasy, and 8 English teams is too small a base. It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it.

I don't see any signs of Lyndsay aplying for Lewis's job to finish his mission. He flew the coop to soccer. Some visionary he was.

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Maurice Lyndsey, to my mind, was the catalyst that destroyed the original Oldham club! Why?

Well he didn't do it intentionally, but what he did was go for broke with Wigan.

They were the first club to go fully professional, it can be argued, and because of that they were unstoppable.

So the likes of Oldham tried to match them by spending stupid money on players they couldn't afford.

Tony Anderson, for one.

So Oldham had to sell the ground and in the end died.

I don't blame Lyndsey, but he was the catalyst.

In a case like this there is no blame, Oldham didn't know better, they tried to catch up and went bust.

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It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets.

That's just the sort of thing that beggars belief.

But doesn't beg a reply.

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Maurice Lyndsey, to my mind, was the catalyst that destroyed the original Oldham club! Why?

Well he didn't do it intentionally, but what he did was go for broke with Wigan.

They were the first club to go fully professional, it can be argued, and because of that they were unstoppable.

So the likes of Oldham tried to match them by spending stupid money on players they couldn't afford.

Tony Anderson, for one.

So Oldham had to sell the ground and in the end died.

I don't blame Lyndsey, but he was the catalyst.

In a case like this there is no blame, Oldham didn't know better, they tried to catch up and went bust.

Interesting thoughts.

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You seem to have to have adopted Lyndsay as the prophet of Rugby League and his ideas a tablets from the mountain. In reality he ran Wigan into the ground but caused them to be so dominant in the process that he damaged the other clubs who could not compete. He then was RL chairman of the game he had helped to wreck and was staring extinction in the face when Murdoch, for reasons completely related to his struggles with Kerry Packer in Australia, came riding to the rescue with the Sky money. Lyndsay was in the right place at the right time and he and the game were lucky. Do you think the merger proposals were Lyndsay's or Murdoch wishing to save money by only having to finance a smaller number of clubs.

It is always interesting to me that a merger which would have made sense, namely St Helens and Wigan, two small towns in very close proximity to each other, were never proposed as possible merger targets. Perhaps he didn't want to shoot his beloved Wigan just the other inconvenient nonentities deemed worth of sacrifice.

The SL you propose of two French and a Welsh team, two of the three being at present being a pipe dream and a fantasy, and 8 English teams is too small a base. It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it.

I don't see any signs of Lyndsay aplying for Lewis's job to finish his mission. He flew the coop to soccer. Some visionary he was.

no arguments from me!

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It will disenfranchise many, many thousands of fans, who will not flock to the remaining SL teams, and will cause the teams outside the pale of SL to wither and die and the game of RL with it........

You two doomongers deserve each other.

It's always the same stuff, don't change anything...

Always go backwards to where we were.

Because if we don't the game will DIE.

Three teams in Leeds in the past. Only one team in it in Leeds today.

Profitable large crowds

Large numbers of quality players being produced.

Forget reality guys

The problem with you two is your biased, you support small clubs who make big losses and want the past to come back.

I don't blame you but your private Fraser impressions are self serving.

Were old men we aren't the audience of tomorrow, and tomorrows fans have no alliegences to the old traditional clubs

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Rugby League World - April 2017

League Express - Mon 10th April 2017