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foozler

Oldham

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Keighley v Oldham, Oldham v Widnes or London v Toulouse?

Hmmm..let me think about that for a moment.

I wonder which would attract t the most media attention and coverage, sponsorship, viewers etc

I wonder which one of those would best illustrate the game's forward looking and outward looking attitude.

I wonder which one of those would shout out to the world's huddled masses, "This is YOUR game!"

Seeing as most of the huddled masses are still in the North and since Sky cannot be seen in Toulouse, that wouod be a toss up.

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Seeing as most of the huddled masses are still in the North and since Sky cannot be seen in Toulouse, that wouod be a toss up.

And always will be if peoples horizons are restricted to thinking that Keighley V Oldham would be more attractive than London V Toulouse

In fact, the TV viewer demographic is far from parochial. Sky is available in Toulouse. see for example: http://www.insatinte...php?CountryID=2 (For six years l lived 200 miles north of Toulouse as the crow flies and had perfectly good Sky coverage) but that is not the point.

See Astra footprint

sAstra-2-North.jpg

A GF between two major cities, one in each country would radically change the way the game is treated in France and French TV coverage would be pretty nigh certain. Such a game would attract new fans, new viewers, new sponsors, new advertisers, new media attention.

I know that is not what everyone wants, but hey ho, that's why they make Airbus in Toulouse and not in Keighley.

The point is, as has been shown by the Heineken Cup, that international competition is more popular than parochial competition, which makes it more attractive to, more saleable to advertisers and sponsors.

Keighley V Oldham might attract advertising from Tubigrip and the Queens Tandoori Takeaway and viewer from as far away as, well Keighley and ..er Oldham whereas a Grand Final between London and Toulouse would have a far bigger market to go at - The combined population of London and Toulouse is 12 million, 20 times the combined population of Keighley and Oldham

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And always will be if peoples horizons are restricted to thinking that Keighley V Oldham would be more attractive than London V Toulouse

In fact, the TV viewer demographic is far from parochial. Sky is available in Toulouse. see for example: http://www.insatinte...php?CountryID=2 (For six years l lived 200 miles north of Toulouse as the crow flies and had perfectly good Sky coverage) but that is not the point.

See Astra footprint

sAstra-2-North.jpg

A GF between two major cities, one in each country would radically change the way the game is treated in France and French TV coverage would be pretty nigh certain. Such a game would attract new fans, new viewers, new sponsors, new advertisers, new media attention.

I know that is not what everyone wants, but hey ho, that's why they make Airbus in Toulouse and not in Keighley.

The point is, as has been shown by the Heineken Cup, that international competition is more popular than parochial competition, which makes it more attractive to, more saleable to advertisers and sponsors.

Keighley V Oldham might attract advertising from Tubigrip and the Queens Tandoori Takeaway and viewer from as far away as, well Keighley and ..er Oldham whereas a Grand Final between London and Toulouse would have a far bigger market to go at - The combined population of London and Toulouse is 12 million, 20 times the combined population of Keighley and Oldham

I don't think I said that Oldham v keighley would be more attractive a fixture than London V Toulouse. I said London v Toulouse would be a nightmare for the league grand final What do you estimate the attendance at such a game would be. I would think if you got 30,000 you would be extremely lucky as opposed to 70,000 at a northern baswed grand final.

I don't think the relative size of London or Toulouse is relevant either given the popularity of soccer in one and RU and soccer in the other. I think any prospectrive sponsors who had done their homewrok would know that too.

Do you not think aHheineken cup final between Northampton and Gloucester would draw just as well as one involving some Italian team and say Connaught.

Having siad that the RU has developed the Heineken cup into a great competition even though the standard of play is the ususal RU garbage. We should ook to emulate some of that geographical and multi country spread but we are a long ways off.Ffor now London V Toulouse grand final would be the leagues' worst nightmare.

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Clearly not today, no. To get to the Grand Final Toulouse would have to develop, grow, improve, and achieve merely to get into SuperLeague. The earliest they could even qualify would be 2015 and they may not succeed even then. But maybe,maybe they could be in by 2018. Give them three years to get to the playoffs and we are talking 2020

Ditto London. They'd have to survive the next licencing round and then develop, grow, improve, and achieve a playoff position. So, for both clubs to get to the GF then they'd be pretty successful and attractive clubs and their following would reflect that. a GF at Wembley or the Stade de France would beckon.

Of course, if both clubs had developed in the way that Keighley and Oldham have developed over even the last 10 years.......

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Your correction merely re inforces my original point which was that, even at the lower tier level, succesful teams, even an Oldham team, can draw decent crowds so what might happen if such fixtures were ever replicated in SL. 9,000 at Spotland is way more than anything Widnes got this season in SL.

This is one of the biggest contrivances I have ever seen written by a supposedly serious observer of the game.

I was at the first game where Oldham played Featherstone because I go to grand finals, yes there were Oldham fans but the crowd didn't get to 20,000 until Castleford and Widnes took the stage. There were neutrals there and Oldham at the time were the worst supported club of the four, their average attendance being 1,100 that season.

The spotland game was also a final with plenty of neutrals and of course Widnes supplied the bulk of the crowd. I wouldn't be suprised if 3-4,000 Oldham fans had made the short journey that day but to argue along either of these lines is just plain silly.

I think Hetherington said Leeds took 20,000 plus fans to Old Trafford - seems thousands of fans like a good final but aren't even interested in regular SL rounds.

So lets take 500 oldham fans off the 4,000 at Spotland as people who only go to the biggest matches and what do you have on a LOGICAL argument. 3,500 which is what they used to get in Superleague.

Here's the other argument that defied logic, that down in Tameside there's 200,000 fans to go at. It's a bit like the old Keighley argument where they were going to draw fans from Bingley, Shipley, Baildon, Nelson, Colne, Burnley etc, or the Leigh arument where if they can just get the Bolton people going to LSV, oh and what about Sheffield's potential - Big city and Rotherham and Chesterfield just down the road. Saints are aiming for 30,000 fans next year as they are next to Liverpool and Broncos will have to play out of twickenham next year as London has a population of millions.

There's this gross assumption that just because we are interested in a minority sport, that people who have no affinity at all with the game, and are culturally wrapped up in Soccer will want to go watch a struggling Keighley or a struggling Oldham or a struggling Sheffield in Superleague.

When Superleague started the bottom half clubs averages 4,500 fans

Last year the bottom clubs averaged 5,000 fans.

You cannot run competitive Superleague clubs on crowds like that.

You cannot debate the organisation and development of the game on contrivances.

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How many decent amateur teams in Bradford, not many or around Headingley, none.

3,600 as has already been pointed out was in an era when most SL crowds were very low so the 3,600 today would probably be double that.

There's not enough amateur clubs supplying Bradford so that doesn't make Oldham's even smaller junior base good enough for Superleague either so that's a twisted and contrived argument.

This silly "well our club can struggle and fail the same as other SL clubs" is more contrived nonsense.

This must be the sixth time you have said Leeds has a poor junior base. by claiming there's no clubs around Headingley when I can walk to Milford and Queens in less than 10 minutes from Headingley. The city contains Wortley, Rodley, Easts, Wests, Stanningley, Harehills, Wetherby, Warriors, Parkside, Middleton, etc all running junior clubs but if you are going to contrive the idea Leeds have no junior base when they could put a powerful SL side out with Leeds born players alone then what's the point in debating with you?

The third issue you should deal with before moving on to contrive more nonsense is the idea crowds in SL would be double today than they were in 1996.

Bradford started SL in 1996 on 10,000 crowds.

The only clubs to have made large increases in their attendances have been the ones who have put in superb new facilities, and have gone on to compete in SL and actually won things.

Now start again.

Oldham, low fanbase, no ground, no money, small junior base.

How on this planet can they make a Superleague club?

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Keighley V Oldham might attract advertising from Tubigrip and the Queens Tandoori Takeaway and viewer from as far away as, well Keighley and ..er Oldham whereas a Grand Final between London and Toulouse would have a far bigger market to go at - The combined population of London and Toulouse is 12 million, 20 times the combined population of Keighley and Oldham

There's no question of a grand final between these two for many years to come as we know. The strength of RL is along the M62 and not even Les Cats would have got near finals without extensive imports to their team.

London and Toulouse will always be ridiculed, with people conveniently forgetting why they are there. Toulouse and catalans are there to revive French Rugby League as that policy has more potential than reviving the game in Keighley or , Oldham, or developing it in Sheffield, and consequently meaningful test games, while justifying the "Europe" in SLE, and London are there to show the country the game is not a regional oddity, and to facilitate lads down south in launching pro careers.

The alternative model many on here want is erm......P & R between two divisions and more M62 clubs in the top division and the SKY money shared amongst them all.

What they want is SKY to subsidise the old first and second division set up.

Firstly they won't, and secondly any return to two division RL with P & R leaves the game open to such as London Catalans and Toulouse being relegated and the game returning to being a regional oddity. In the current modern day sporting climate the game will go seriously backwards if that happens.

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good job we don't want to be in super league then is'nt it...lol

I know you don't and I know Sheddings doesn't want to be in there. If your representative of a silent majority of CC fans who aren't falling over themselves to be in Superleague then I'm sorry that fans of other CC clubs are on here arguing you can make it to Superleague.

They should stick to arguing for their own club to be in Superleague, but when I suggest this they say "we aren't ready". I like the "we aren't ready" argument because it leads to the question "how will you get ready" then in comes the fantasy, someone will come along with Millions to spend over many years, and people who have no affinity with the game will flock to watch it all happen from neighbouring towns and cities.

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All those posts are expected from a diehard staus quo SL junkie like Parksider.

Nobody, no where , no how, can any team which are not in SL today from the heartlands can ever get there.

I could take on all the points raised in detail but I havn't the time.

Suffice it to say that Huddersfield, Bradford, Salford, Hull KR, London and Wakefield have come from attendances ranging from 400 to 1500 and playing in rotting dumps to where they are today. Another team, Widnes, are in SL from a very small town.

Toulouse are touted as the next big thing coming from small attendances in a small deteriorating stadium, but that's OK because they are in the "In" crowd.

Given those examples, why is it that no other team be it Oldham, Sheffield, Halifax, Leigh, Featherstone, Barrow, York, Doncaster, Crusaders or even Skolars or any of the new teams coming into the league can ever achieve like results to the Huddersfields and Londons.

You can point to their lack of finances, a couple to lack of grounds, and not huge crowds and say NEVER, but the truth is those other teams have managed to do it. Don't throw hypothetical questions around about how will team a or team b ever do it. Obvioulsy I can't answer that. Many probably can't but some might. That's up to each club to work out for themselves You should never say never.

P and r has been injected into this thread as a red herring. P and r is another subject. This thread was about Oldham, their right to exist as a team representing their area and their possible future successes. Their supporters have come on here saying they do not want SL. That's their right and there is no way the club are remotely close to that ambition in any case and nobody said they were, least of all me, but, in my opinion, the town of Oldham is big enough for a SL team. Whether it will ever happen is improbable but the past is sometimes prologue.

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oh yeah..given the size of the town,our history and the talent the town produces for RL in general we really should be at the top table...

but we sat there once and failed.....we even got within 1 game of getting back there in 2001...and have been to several grand finals since..not won any mind you but thats life as a oldham fan :lol:

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All those posts are expected from a diehard staus quo SL junkie like Parksider.

Suffice it to say that Huddersfield, Bradford, Salford, Hull KR, London and Wakefield have come from attendances ranging from 400 to 1500 and playing in rotting dumps to where they are today. Another team, Widnes, are in SL from a very small town.

Don't accuse me of what I am not. All I want is to debate the truth and not be set up as some sort of SL villain you are out to conquor........

Huddersfield and London are not in Superleague because of their attendances. they are in because millionaires pump millions in.

FACT live with it.

Bradford and wakefield went bust in SL on their attendances

FACT live with it.

Salford are close to administraton on their attendances despite what Wilko puts in.

FACT live with it

HKR lose hundreds of thousands on their attendances.

FACT live with it.

Widnes do not break even

FACT live with it.

this is the silly contrived argument that if all the above clubs are in SL and failing why cant Oldham and sheffield and keighley and leigh also be in Superleague equally failing?

Because they have even less resources than the clubs you name, and would be even bigger disasters

Simple isn't it.

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Widnes do not break even

FACT live with it.

funny thing is...in 2008/9 while in the championship widnes posted a profit on nearly a million quid...

if i owned a rugby league club,posted a health profit every year and stood a chance of winning something every year...i would'nt jack that in too be a also ran in another league and lose money hand over fist :lol:

the sooner clubs realize where "their level is" the soon we can develop the championship into something proper

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Don't accuse me of what I am not. All I want is to debate the truth and not be set up as some sort of SL villain you are out to conquor........

Huddersfield and London are not in Superleague because of their attendances. they are in because millionaires pump millions in.

FACT live with it.

Bradford and wakefield went bust in SL on their attendances

FACT live with it.

Salford are close to administraton on their attendances despite what Wilko puts in.

FACT live with it

HKR lose hundreds of thousands on their attendances.

FACT live with it.

Widnes do not break even

FACT live with it.

this is the silly contrived argument that if all the above clubs are in SL and failing why cant Oldham and sheffield and keighley and leigh also be in Superleague equally failing?

Because they have even less resources than the clubs you name, and would be even bigger disasters

Simple isn't it.

No. it's not quite that simple. the fact that Oldham etc don't have resources today does not mean that they never will have resources.

Huddersfield had nothing, they were facing extinction back in the day playing at Fartown. Along came the stadium, thanks I think, to the council, along came Davy with the money and up went the crowds, along came the success, relativelty speaking, and now they are one of the top teams in SL.

Hull KR were not far off, in fact, they were in administration. Along came Hudgell, along came the grants for the ground and they are now in SL. Yes they have hit a bump in the road at the moment but look at where they have come from.

Widnes went bust, along came their money man, and along came Halton council and they are in SL on small attendances. Bradford went bust on big attendances, so attendances, whilst important are not the only determining factor. If they were London should be in CC.

In fact, even the big boys have been in big trouble. Leeds were on the skids before Caddick. Wigan were in trouble before Whelan and Lenaghan bailed them out. Warrington were bailed out from 5,000 attendances at Wilderspool to 10,000 at HJ by Moran.

Saints have had significant help from the M brothers.

Hull have been bailed out twice, the Gateshead merger and Pearson.

Then there's Wakefield, two time losers before Glover.

So there is not one SL club who have not had their troubles.

The evidence would appear to be therefore that in the right circumstances any club can be turned into a SL team. Is it easy ? No. Is it even probable? maybe not. Can it be done.? The answer would appear to be that it can.

Each case needs to be addressed on it's merits, which is what The RFL, in principle anyway, do with the licencing process and would also do on a standards based p and r process.

It used to be that the CC clubs were beaten around the head with stadium standards. Now a significant number of them have solved that problem then the argument shifts to crowds. Finances has always been part of the equation, but , overall, many CC clubs are way better bets for SL consideration that they were ten years ago. Time will tell, but for you to dismiss all CC clubs out of hand as never being able to reach SL standards smacks to me of a SL centric view of things which clouds your objectivity when discussing the subject.

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funny thing is...in 2008/9 while in the championship widnes posted a profit on nearly a million quid...

if i owned a rugby league club,posted a health profit every year and stood a chance of winning something every year...i would'nt jack that in too be a also ran in another league and lose money hand over fist :lol:

the sooner clubs realize where "their level is" the soon we can develop the championship into something proper

I'm so glad you know your place.

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1. No. it's not quite that simple. the fact that Oldham etc don't have resources today does not mean that they never will have resources.Huddersfield had nothing, they were facing extinction back in the day playing at Fartown. Along came the stadium, thanks I think, to the council, along came Davy with the money...........

2. Time will tell, but for you to dismiss all CC clubs out of hand as never being able to reach SL standards smacks to me of a SL centric view of things which clouds your objectivity when discussing the subject.

1. All you have proved with that silly example is any CC club can get into Superleague if a millionaire makes up their trading shortfall year on year on year on year.

I've already agreed that is the one way it can happen. But Fartown haven't won anything have they and Daveys been at it 10 years.

2. You have yet to give me anything beyond a millionaire coming along and putting tens of millions in to show me how small RL clubs on less than £1M turnover can get to be SL clubs on £5M turnovers.

Show me some evidence or logic rather than this rich man came a knocking rubbish......

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I'm so glad you know your place.

our place should be challenging for the play offs in the championship.......so we're way off our place yet

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1. All you have proved with that silly example is any CC club can get into Superleague if a millionaire makes up their trading shortfall year on year on year on year.

I've already agreed that is the one way it can happen. But Fartown haven't won anything have they and Daveys been at it 10 years.

2. You have yet to give me anything beyond a millionaire coming along and putting tens of millions in to show me how small RL clubs on less than £1M turnover can get to be SL clubs on £5M turnovers.

Show me some evidence or logic rather than this rich man came a knocking rubbish......

1. You edited my post again. You are very good at that. If you look again, when speaking of Huddersfield's success I said " relatively speaking " in that they have been in the playoffs, the cup final and in the top 6 or seven of SL for a couple of seasons now.

Why is it a silly example?. Suppose a millionaire came along and bought Oldham Athletic and then looked at Huddersfield Giants and Huddersfield Town and thought. I could get more bang for my buck from the stadium if I had two teams playing there like in Huddersfield. I can get the Roughyeds for a pittance, put some money in and see what happens. Wasn't that the Fulham model or the Wigan model ?

2. That's up to the individual clubs to sort out how they achieve any future goals. Ask Mark Aston, he seems to have done pretty well so far. It's not up to me. But, on the subject of big investors, I suppose it's alright for Widnes, Hull, Wigan , Leeds, Hull KR, Salford, Wakefield, London, Huddersfield, Bradford and the proposed Toulouse etc to have found millionaire's to help them out because, hey, they are SL clubs. When a CC club looks to prosper that way it's silly and rubbish even though half the SL clubs have done it, at least three of them from the CC level.

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our place should be challenging for the play offs in the championship.......so we're way off our place yet

Yeah, my comment was unfair. i apologise. Good luck for the playoffs and hopefully promotion. You deserve it. Oldham have had so many near misses in the playoffs and also Challenge cup semi finals that it almost seems you are cursed. If you had won any one of them the club might have moved onwards to success.

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There is no reason why Oldham can't get back in Super League. It would take money, time, planning, and a ground share with latics (White bank will never ever be SL standard, CH standard and then a training ground at best).

At this time it is unlikely, but none of the reasons outlined above to why we can't are show stoppers.

We could go in any direction in the future, bankrupt, CH1 hovering, CH Yo-Yo side or title contenders, no one can say with 100% certainty.

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1. There is no reason why Oldham can't get back in Super League.

2. It would take money

1. Indeed, Featherstone may get in Superleague, Crusaders got there. Leigh got there but the issue is staying there.

2. How much for Oldham to do it then? Get there and stay there. Where would it come from??

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Suppose a millionaire came along and bought Oldham Athletic and then looked at Huddersfield Giants and Huddersfield Town and thought. I could get more bang for my buck from the stadium if I had two teams playing there like in Huddersfield. I can get the Roughyeds for a pittance, put some money in and see what happens.

Here's where it would come from

Anyone give me something more than this rich man turned up???

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Yeah, my comment was unfair. i apologise. Good luck for the playoffs and hopefully promotion. You deserve it. Oldham have had so many near misses in the playoffs and also Challenge cup semi finals that it almost seems you are cursed. If you had won any one of them the club might have moved onwards to success.

i started watching oldham in the mid 80's.....i've seen us lose 4 challenge cup semi finals,2 lancashire cup finals and 5 championship & championship1 grand finals.......not to mention all the money troubles,being homeless,getting sod all help from the local council & RFL........trust me it's not easy being a oldham fan lol

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Here's where it would come from

Anyone give me something more than this rich man turned up???

Yes, Sheffield, Featherstone and Halifax.Progress being made by all three clubs. Stay tuned for any future developments.

You are so two faced. How can you trumpet all the rich men who turned up at the various SL clubs, sometimes when they were in the Championships, but then deny rich investor support as being an avenue to success for any other team not from the anointed.

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i started watching oldham in the mid 80's.....i've seen us lose 4 challenge cup semi finals,2 lancashire cup finals and 5 championship & championship1 grand finals.......not to mention all the money troubles,being homeless,getting sod all help from the local council & RFL........trust me it's not easy being a oldham fan lol

Yes, contrast that to Widnes, who got the council to build them a very nice SL standard ground, won one National Rail cup, found a millionaire and see where they are.

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