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foozler

Oldham

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1. Fine, let the lower teams wither and die from lack of opportunity and lack of finances.

2. Good luck with your ten team SL, two of whom are from France. The total strength of British Rugby League at senior level will be eight clubs.

3. Someone will finish bottom of that lot and gradually sink to a lower level than the rest. get rid of them too, go to 7 british teams.

4. Good luck with the England team picking from that small base.

5. Do you really think Featherstone, Halifax, Leigh and others will last very long if they are in he CC forevermore..

6. A ring fenced SL will be the death of the game in this hemisphere.

1. Bramley and Hunslet withered and Bramley died. Guess what? Rugby league in Leeds is healthier than it has ever been.

2. Where do you get eight clubs from? The strong centers of Pro RL are in London, Hull, Bradford, Fartown, Leeds, Wakefield, Warrington, Saints and Wigan. It's nine.

3. In the NRL the bottom team doesn't "sink" it lives to fight another season. SL is using this model.

4. What small base?? The England team has always picked from the top clubs in 1992 at the world cup final Great Britain chose their side from eight top division clubs, same in 1978 at Bradford the team was picked from eight top clubs.

They never picked anyone from Keighley or Bramley,

5. No I personally don't. I see Wakefield possibly eclipsing Fev, Wigan overshadowing Leigh and Fartown/Bradford out muscling Halifax. Having said that these fine clubs are continuing to hold their own.

If they don't last then the SL clubs will take over their fan bases and local players just like in Leeds. Those SL clubs will be all the stronger for it just like Leeds are.

6. Utter drivel.

The NRL is ring fenced and it is the biggest Rugby league competition in the world, attracting mega dollars/

Ring fencing is good.......

You are trying to argue us back to 1952 or 1995, but It cannot wash can it when the NRL, the model the RFL are chasing - an Elite served by feeder clubs - is so darn successful.

Your quote "If you kill the roots, the tree will die" is just a slogan meaning what?

That the roots of Rugby League are Championship clubs??

They simply are not. Championship clubs serve small local followings who preferr the small club, or who are too far away from an SL clubs. Championship clubs survive on getting players from Superleague.

The REAL roots of Rugby League is the junior game we now see played all over the country, in schools, superb junior clubs many away from the M62, Colleges and universities. The roots have never been as strong...............

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A man with money is not always the answer. They do not give it away.

The benefit of having rich Directors is they can underpin the business with their own financial clout.

The money they dole out comes at a cost and usually has massive interest attached to it. So when said rich director gets bored and goes, the debt owed is often quite larger than it would have been.

I know Hull KR have a backer, but you could see when they were in the Championship that they were gearing up for SL and this was done on a sound business plan more than the financial backing of a director.

No that did not happen. In 2006 the club had a fanbase of just over 2,000.

The directors put a lot of serious money (well into six figures) in and improved the ground and bought players the business itself could not afford. It's on record how much they put in over the years since then and now they can put in no more and the club has run the last season on a £500,000 loss.

There was no "sound business plan" at all. Hudgell and his partner did give it away, at least to date.

There's no sound business plan at Castleford, like HKR they cannot hold on to their best players. There's no sound business plan at Salford because it needed 8,000 fans - same at Widnes and neither got them.

Several clubs IN superleague can't afford Superleague and do not have sound business plans due to low levels of support. Add Fartown to that and you have five failing business plans.

Failing at five SL clubs who have crowds averaging at just under 7,000

Failing at clubs who have had large sums put into them from Davey, Hudgell, Wilko, and Fulton.

So how would Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone EVER hope to compete when they neither have anyone rich to put millions in which in itself doesn't work. nor any hope of pulling anywhere near 7,000 fans which in itself isn't enough.

This is what Lyndsay would say. He'd say Rovers should throw in with Hull at the KC, Fev and Cas should throw in at Newmarket, Leigh should throw in with Wigan, Widnes should throw in with Warrington, and the league should look abroad for new big clubs.

Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

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1. Bramley and Hunslet withered and Bramley died. Guess what? Rugby league in Leeds is healthier than it has ever been.

2. Where do you get eight clubs from? The strong centers of Pro RL are in London, Hull, Bradford, Fartown, Leeds, Wakefield, Warrington, Saints and Wigan. It's nine.

3. In the NRL the bottom team doesn't "sink" it lives to fight another season. SL is using this model.

4. What small base?? The England team has always picked from the top clubs in 1992 at the world cup final Great Britain chose their side from eight top division clubs, same in 1978 at Bradford the team was picked from eight top clubs.

They never picked anyone from Keighley or Bramley,

5. No I personally don't. I see Wakefield possibly eclipsing Fev, Wigan overshadowing Leigh and Fartown/Bradford out muscling Halifax. Having said that these fine clubs are continuing to hold their own.

If they don't last then the SL clubs will take over their fan bases and local players just like in Leeds. Those SL clubs will be all the stronger for it just like Leeds are.

6. Utter drivel.

The NRL is ring fenced and it is the biggest Rugby league competition in the world, attracting mega dollars/

Ring fencing is good.......

You are trying to argue us back to 1952 or 1995, but It cannot wash can it when the NRL, the model the RFL are chasing - an Elite served by feeder clubs - is so darn successful.

Your quote "If you kill the roots, the tree will die" is just a slogan meaning what?

That the roots of Rugby League are Championship clubs??

They simply are not. Championship clubs serve small local followings who preferr the small club, or who are too far away from an SL clubs. Championship clubs survive on getting players from Superleague.

The REAL roots of Rugby League is the junior game we now see played all over the country, in schools, superb junior clubs many away from the M62, Colleges and universities. The roots have never been as strong...............

1. Hunslet v Leeds championship final attracted a full house to Elland Road. Hunslet V Wigan RL cup final was one of the best ever. Leeds had to be bailed out by Caddick and kow tow to RU to survive.

How can you say that Rugby League in Leeds is better than it has ever been.As we speak, the Rhinos are in pretty good shape but RL in Leeds is poorer for the decline of Hunslet and the loss of Bramley. I would hazard a guess the amateur RL in Leeds is nowhere near what it used to be either. I have not researched it but my gut feeling is that there are lot less amateur RL clubs in Leeds than there used to be.

2. If you think that London is a stronghold of PROFESSIONAL RL then good for you. I don't subscribe to that view. When the big greed inspired axe comes out and they trim the SL down to ten clubs, they will cut Hull KR, Castleford, Salford and who ? In my opinion either Widnes or London. They were within a haresbreath of doing it once before and there is no Lewis to stand in the way this time.

3. What a short memory you have. I give you South Sydney, North Sydney, Balmain, Newtown and Western Reds as examples of teams booted from the NRL. Their current lack of committment to expansion even in a time of unparallelled prosperity for the game in Australia dos't look so hot either.

4. On occasions the England team may have been picked from the top eight clubs but you need to ask the question " did the top eight clubs produce all those players or did they transfer a bunch of them in from Championship clubs"? who will not be there in the future.

Just to put you straight Terry Hollindrake, Geoff Crewdson,Nick Pinkney and Brian Jefferson have been picked for GB/England from Keighley and Derek Hallas was developed by Keighley before moving to Leeds and getting a GB cap. David Jeanes was a Keighley lad also and he got a GB cap. Roy Sabine played regularly for Yorkshire when they were a top level, just sub International, represenetative side. there were also several Welsh internationals who played for Keighley. Not a long list but it exists.

5. The point has been made before that when teams die their whole fan base does not just automatically transfer to the nearest other team You tried to make that argument with Oldham and Salford and Hull and Hull KR. When Huddersfield were operating on crowds of 400, I don't remember seeing a 5,000 increase in the gates of the successful Halifax club. When Bradford were pulling to 200 to Odsal i don't remember Keighley, who were busy winning promotion at the time getting the missing Bradford thousands to their ground. When Hull KR were in CC1 on crowds of just over a thousand I don't remember any 20,000 average attendances at Hull.

Leeds would be even stronger if they were playing a SL Hunslet two or three times a season and getting two or three extra 20,000 plus crowds to Headingley.

6. Utter drivel to you too. A ring fenced mini league of 10 with 8 British clubs will ultimately bore the spectators and, more importantly, the viewers and thus TV companies, and the results will be dire for the future of the game.

The NRL is much larger than 10 teams. their record is spotty but, overall, they are committed to expanding and admitting new teams not regressing to some unsustainable rump competition. Where do you think the NRL would be if they were still confined to having all their clubs in Sydney as they did in the past. I would suggest they would be in a lot of trouble.

Ring fencing is bad.

I am not trying to argue back to 1952 or 1995. I am sure the game would love to be attracting the attendances they were attracting in 1952, especially in Oldham, but there was only one huge 28 team division then just like the NRL but I am not advocating that.

In 1995, there was no Sky money. I am not advocating that we tell them to go take a hike.

Have you ever seen a schematic of a tree showing the root system mirroring the branch system above ground. If you cut the roots off the branches will die.

In RL there is a network of amateur teams, junior teams and semi pro CC teams underpinning the SL Branches. If you kill off the semi pro teams, interest in their area in RL will similarly wither, the people will not put their money into RL, they will not buy Sky TV for the RL, they will not encourage their children to play amateur RL, despite the success of SL teams in finding juniors, the supply of young players will

diminish.

The support for the International teams will also drop off. Not everybody who watches England comes from a SL area.

You can get a decent looking tree with not much root system but at the first high wind the tree will topple.

That is what I mean when I say if you cut off the roots the SL will die

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1. Hunslet v Leeds championship final attracted a full house to Elland Road. Hunslet V Wigan RL cup final was one of the best ever. Leeds had to be bailed out by Caddick and kow tow to RU to survive.

How can you say that Rugby League in Leeds is better than it has ever been.As we speak, the Rhinos are in pretty good shape but RL in Leeds is poorer for the decline of Hunslet and the loss of Bramley. I would hazard a guess the amateur RL in Leeds is nowhere near what it used to be either. I have not researched it but my gut feeling is that there are lot less amateur RL clubs in Leeds than there used to be.

2. If you think that London is a stronghold of PROFESSIONAL RL then good for you. I don't subscribe to that view. When the big greed inspired axe comes out and they trim the SL down to ten clubs, they will cut Hull KR, Castleford, Salford and who ? In my opinion either Widnes or London. They were within a haresbreath of doing it once before and there is no Lewis to stand in the way this time.

3. What a short memory you have. I give you South Sydney, North Sydney, Balmain, Newtown and Western Reds as examples of teams booted from the NRL. Their current lack of committment to expansion even in a time of unparallelled prosperity for the game in Australia dos't look so hot either.

4. On occasions the England team may have been picked from the top eight clubs but you need to ask the question " did the top eight clubs produce all those players or did they transfer a bunch of them in from Championship clubs"? who will not be there in the future.

Just to put you straight Terry Hollindrake, Geoff Crewdson,Nick Pinkney and Brian Jefferson have been picked for GB/England from Keighley and Derek Hallas was developed by Keighley before moving to Leeds and getting a GB cap. David Jeanes was a Keighley lad also and he got a GB cap. Roy Sabine played regularly for Yorkshire when they were a top level, just sub International, represenetative side. there were also several Welsh internationals who played for Keighley. Not a long list but it exists.

5. The point has been made before that when teams die their whole fan base does not just automatically transfer to the nearest other team You tried to make that argument with Oldham and Salford and Hull and Hull KR. When Huddersfield were operating on crowds of 400, I don't remember seeing a 5,000 increase in the gates of the successful Halifax club. When Bradford were pulling to 200 to Odsal i don't remember Keighley, who were busy winning promotion at the time getting the missing Bradford thousands to their ground. When Hull KR were in CC1 on crowds of just over a thousand I don't remember any 20,000 average attendances at Hull.

Leeds would be even stronger if they were playing a SL Hunslet two or three times a season and getting two or three extra 20,000 plus crowds to Headingley.

6. Utter drivel to you too. A ring fenced mini league of 10 with 8 British clubs will ultimately bore the spectators and, more importantly, the viewers and thus TV companies, and the results will be dire for the future of the game.

The NRL is much larger than 10 teams. their record is spotty but, overall, they are committed to expanding and admitting new teams not regressing to some unsustainable rump competition. Where do you think the NRL would be if they were still confined to having all their clubs in Sydney as they did in the past. I would suggest they would be in a lot of trouble.

Ring fencing is bad.

I am not trying to argue back to 1952 or 1995. I am sure the game would love to be attracting the attendances they were attracting in 1952, especially in Oldham, but there was only one huge 28 team division then just like the NRL but I am not advocating that.

In 1995, there was no Sky money. I am not advocating that we tell them to go take a hike.

Have you ever seen a schematic of a tree showing the root system mirroring the branch system above ground. If you cut the roots off the branches will die.

In RL there is a network of amateur teams, junior teams and semi pro CC teams underpinning the SL Branches. If you kill off the semi pro teams, interest in their area in RL will similarly wither, the people will not put their money into RL, they will not buy Sky TV for the RL, they will not encourage their children to play amateur RL, despite the success of SL teams in finding juniors, the supply of young players will

diminish.

The support for the International teams will also drop off. Not everybody who watches England comes from a SL area.

You can get a decent looking tree with not much root system but at the first high wind the tree will topple.

That is what I mean when I say if you cut off the roots the SL will die

1. one game was in the 1930s, the other was in the 60s: do yoyu think these examples illustrate the general picture? The game is stronger in Leeds than it was because more people are watching it and more people are playing it.

2. London is a stronghold of the game in London. If you look at participation numbers in the South East it is the tip of a massive stronghold. It's a beleagured stronghold, like say Bradford and Salford are, but a stronghold nonetheless.

3. I'm given to understand that this year's grand final winners in the NRL are the Melbourne Storm: as in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

4. David Jeanes was an England Rugby Union international, Jefferson was a Union player. The problem is that the keighlkey area produces good rugby league players but with rare exceptions can't either sign them or keep them. How long has the club been in existence? And you can only name thjis handful of players who acivwed success whilst at Keighley.

5. You don't know much about the demography of Rugby League in Leeds do you? It's been discussed at length before. If you really want to we can go over it again.

6 the situation you describe is purely hypothetical.

In what way did the Rhinos 'kow tow' to Union? Do tell. Also as we speak the headingley pitch is now dug up forcing Carnegie to play games 'on the road'.

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1. one game was in the 1930s, the other was in the 60s: do yoyu think these examples illustrate the general picture? The game is stronger in Leeds than it was because more people are watching it and more people are playing it.

2. London is a stronghold of the game in London. If you look at participation numbers in the South East it is the tip of a massive stronghold. It's a beleagured stronghold, like say Bradford and Salford are, but a stronghold nonetheless.

3. I'm given to understand that this year's grand final winners in the NRL are the Melbourne Storm: as in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

4. David Jeanes was an England Rugby Union international, Jefferson was a Union player. The problem is that the keighlkey area produces good rugby league players but with rare exceptions can't either sign them or keep them. How long has the club been in existence? And you can only name thjis handful of players who acivwed success whilst at Keighley.

5. You don't know much about the demography of Rugby League in Leeds do you? It's been discussed at length before. If you really want to we can go over it again.

6 the situation you describe is purely hypothetical.

In what way did the Rhinos 'kow tow' to Union? Do tell. Also as we speak the headingley pitch is now dug up forcing Carnegie to play games 'on the road'.

1. I do believe that when Hunslet were a decent top half of the table club in the past that there were two Derbies with Leeds every year producing top attendances and two minor derbies with Bramley. Are you claiming that more people are watching RL in Leeds than when the three clubs each had a decent fan base. What is Leeds average, about 15,000 isn't it. When Leeds were on eight, Hunslet on six and Bramley on a couple of thousand, the numbers watching Pro RL in leeds were about the same then.

How do you figure more people are playing RL in Leeds than when the amateur game there was much stronger in the past than what it is today.?

2. If you read the previous posts correctly, it was being alledged that London was a stronghold of the PROFESSIONAL game. It is not. Furthermore, the astounding amateur growth in the Capital to which you are erroneously referring has very little to do with the broncos and very much to do with Sport England, the RFL development officers, the summer conference league as was, and some very dedicated enthusiasts.

3. So !. They have also just postponed expansion for another three years when they have tons of money and expansion groups in Queensland, North Coast and Perth with advanced plans for expansion teams pantking at the bit.

4. So what. They were ekither from keighley or produced as professionals by the Keighley club. Are you saying that when the England/GB team was selected from just a few top eight teams as was stated earlier that all those players were from the towns of cities of those top teams.I doubt it. In any event it was being alledged that there were no internationals produced by the Keighley club and I was just putting the record straight. Without Keighley, or any other smaller club, being in existence those players would not have been available for our international team and would have nmade it weaker. Featherstone, currently being dismissed as lower league trash by the powers that be have produced many, many top international players.

5. You just don't read the posts before you launch your invective, do you.? I was talking about Rugby league being stronger in the past when there was a strong Hunslet club. I was not referring to the present day demographics of the Hunslet area or the current strength or lack of it of the Hunslet club.The allegation was that RL in Leeds had never been stronger since the death of Bramley and the decline of Hunslet and I was pointing out that in the past it had been stronger than it is now.

6.At the moment it is hypothetical. If the top movers and shakers in SL get their greedy way it will soon move from the ranks of the hypothetical to being the reality.

Leeds had Headingley to themsleves for over a hundred years. They got themselves in financial trouble, had to be rescued by a RU man, Caddick, who forced them to let the Leeds union lot play at Headingley. They were forced into an amalgamation with union, Leeds Rugby or whatever its title is, they lost their independence and allowed the enemy access to their house. They kow towed to RU.

The relaying of the pitch will be to the mutual advantage of both RU and RL. Did you want them to do it when the Rhinos were playing and deprive the parent company of gate and TV revenue or would it not make more sense to dokit when the second division rugby team with gates of 1500 were playing. Use your common sense.It was a business decision.If the RU had not ruined the pitch in the first place, it might not even have been necessary.

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castleford were never relegated pre SL, the favt that Keighley went bdown again after two years kind of supports my case.

I alsao suggest you check the records of the other clubs you mention also.

I'm glad you have come to terms with your club's non admission to Super League. I think you'll find that there is a largish vociferous constituency for the reintroduction of auto prom and reg- and you yourself have given examples of other sports that you erroneously claim to have it.

I did not seperate p and r into pre and post SL. Castleford were relegated ( twice) and have been promoted and stayed up since. Hull KR also. Hull also.In fact i think Hull set the record attendance for Div2 for a top of the Div 2 table clash against New Hunslet. Hudderefield have been promoted and stayed up. Keighley won promotion, stayed up. The next season they were relegated but got the the Challenge Cup semi final, losing by one point to St Helens, so, all in all, it was well worth the effort. It was our moment in the sun.

Keighley were denied their legitimate promotion because the goal posts were moved twice in the same season to quash Cougarmania once and for all before they could get too big. The first time they moved them was when they abolished promotion halfway through the season and the second was when they introduced minimum ground standards, again half way through the season. It was all a disgraceful travesty at the time and the passage of the years has not blunted my opinion of that. No, I havn't gotten over it.

Keighley were dumped for either london or Paris, take your pick. Batley, Featherstone and Widnes also were shafted. How did those two teams work out. One is gone, forever, and the other is the laughing stock of the league.

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I did not seperate p and r into pre and post SL. Castleford were relegated ( twice) and have been promoted and stayed up since. Hull KR also. Hull also.In fact i think Hull set the record attendance for Div2 for a top of the Div 2 table clash against New Hunslet. Hudderefield have been promoted and stayed up. Keighley won promotion, stayed up. The next season they were relegated but got the the Challenge Cup semi final, losing by one point to St Helens, so, all in all, it was well worth the effort. It was our moment in the sun.

Keighley were denied their legitimate promotion because the goal posts were moved twice in the same season to quash Cougarmania once and for all before they could get too big. The first time they moved them was when they abolished promotion halfway through the season and the second was when they introduced minimum ground standards, again half way through the season. It was all a disgraceful travesty at the time and the passage of the years has not blunted my opinion of that. No, I havn't gotten over it.

Keighley were dumped for either london or Paris, take your pick. Batley, Featherstone and Widnes also were shafted. How did those two teams work out. One is gone, forever, and the other is the laughing stock of the league.

shafted and laughing stock in one paragraph, preceded by a moving of the goal posts.

You are right, 'they' were scared that the Cougars would get too big.

Bye bye forum, I've enjoyed most of it, bye bye rugby league I've enjoye a lot of it and put a fair bit in, but this nonsesnse just isn't worth it. There are too many other pleasures in life. happy whingeing, wallow in your victimhood with all the others.

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shafted and laughing stock in one paragraph, preceded by a moving of the goal posts.

You are right, 'they' were scared that the Cougars would get too big.

Bye bye forum, I've enjoyed most of it, bye bye rugby league I've enjoye a lot of it and put a fair bit in, but this nonsesnse just isn't worth it. There are too many other pleasures in life. happy whingeing, wallow in your victimhood with all the others.

Usually when people threaten to leave I think goodbye and good riddance

I really hope you aren't going though L'Angelo. You and Parksider are the two posters that add something worthwhile to the forum.

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shafted and laughing stock in one paragraph, preceded by a moving of the goal posts.

You are right, 'they' were scared that the Cougars would get too big.

Bye bye forum, I've enjoyed most of it, bye bye rugby league I've enjoye a lot of it and put a fair bit in, but this nonsesnse just isn't worth it. There are too many other pleasures in life. happy whingeing, wallow in your victimhood with all the others.

You are quite right to mock the cliches but they are true for all that. At the time Bradford were on 6,000 crowds and couldn't market stoves to Eskimos. Keighley were on 4000 crowds and pushing higher if in SL. They( you know who 'they'are) "shafted" ( Just to make you wince ) Keighley, enaged a marketing expert in Deakin, mimiced the Cougars ideas and the rest is history, Bullmania.

If that makes you quit supporting RL, well I,m sorry for you. Enjoy yourself watching Leeds Carnegie and the kickfest.

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You are quite right to mock the cliches but they are true for all that. At the time Bradford were on 6,000 crowds and couldn't market stoves to Eskimos. Keighley were on 4000 crowds and pushing higher if in SL. They( you know who 'they'are) "shafted" ( Just to make you wince ) Keighley, enaged a marketing expert in Deakin, mimiced the Cougars ideas and the rest is history, Bullmania.

If that makes you quit supporting RL, well I,m sorry for you. Enjoy yourself watching Leeds Carnegie and the kickfest.

And this is why many of us in Oldham feel that rejecting Superleague is way forward. It can be argued that marketing the CC in the same way that Keighley did can get those crowds back, not only for them but for us.

Our income must be based on income through the turnstyles and promotions off the field and unrelated to Sky money.

We will lose young players to the SL but it is a numbers game. The more we can develop the better we will become.

Any media money should be shared equally and must be used solely for ground and youth development, NOT wages.

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Usually when people threaten to leave I think goodbye and good riddance

I really hope you aren't going though L'Angelo. You and Parksider are the two posters that add something worthwhile to the forum.

At least it will put a stop to endless drivel about Oldham which he clearly knows the square root of b**gger all about!!

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And this is why many of us in Oldham feel that rejecting Superleague is way forward. It can be argued that marketing the CC in the same way that Keighley did can get those crowds back, not only for them but for us.

Our income must be based on income through the turnstyles and promotions off the field and unrelated to Sky money.

We will lose young players to the SL but it is a numbers game. The more we can develop the better we will become.

Any media money should be shared equally and must be used solely for ground and youth development, NOT wages.

In many walks of life realistic people set themselves goals above what they are currently achieving but not so far above that that it is dreamland.

I get fed up with the dreamers on here, and I agree with you, reject dreamland and aim to win the Championship one day.

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1. Keighley won promotion, stayed up. The next season they were relegated but got the the Challenge Cup semi final, losing by one point to St Helens, so, all in all, it was well worth the effort. It was our moment in the sun.

2. Keighley were denied their legitimate promotion because the goal posts were moved twice in the same season to quash Cougarmania once and for all before they could get too big. Keighley were dumped for either london or Paris, take your pick.

1. I stood high up on the marvellous north terrace to will Keighley to get some sort of score to negate Jeff Heatons solitary try of the game and go to Wembley. 7,000 at Lawkholme for the quarter final, 10,000 at Fartown........

2. The formation of Superleague was all about making strategic decisions including mergers, and the introduction of expansion clubs in Toulouse, Paris and London.

There was no real question of "promotion". Keighley had no chance whilst mergers were on the cards because Mo Lyndsay never even bothered to suggest Keighley merge with Bradford.

Probably because he did not want tens of thousands of pounds of keighley debt to be merged with the Bulls.

The promotion was two up into and two down from a 16 club first division. As it happened (guys and gals) Superleague was a 12 club league and so both the "promoted" AND relegated clubs missed out and four more clubs besides.

To suggest Keighley had a right to get in SL on the basis of jumping from the 17th. placed club into a top 12 league is frankly utter nonsense.

Why would the RFL/SLE pick the 17th. place club for a 12 team Superleague.

Indeed why would they pick a heavily indebted club whose artificial bubble was going to burst anyway??

And that was what was "BIG" about Keighley, it was one great big fat bubble that was going to burst, and the people who ran up all that hot air in a bubble needed someone to blame for the failure. Mo and the RFL. :rolleyes:

And lord knows how disgraceful it was for League Express to give Smith a platform 17 years on to spout off about it all over again. :angry:

With respect your deluded that Keighley were made to move over for Paris or London.

The idea of Superleague was that it would break RL out of the M62, and that it would be an elite of big clubs.

Put these in any order you want but the first four choices for SL were Wigan, Paris, Leeds and London.

You flatter Keighley to suggest they were shafted to allow Paris or London in.

90,000 people live in Keighley today. Unlike most RL clubs keighley have never been "too big" not in 136 years of their existence.

Keighley have to import most and at times all of their players to make up a team. Their champions of 1995 were all but Keith Dixon imported using money the club did not have. Their amateur and junior base is small. I can think of Keighley Albion and their junior section. Beyond that I am lost for another name. No professional players in todays game come from Keighley.

I love the ground below Ilkley moor, I love the atmosphere. I love the club, I love the many visits I make there....

But I do not love the twaddle spoken about how they were "shafted" because they were "getting too big"

For goodness sake RL needs and would love ALL it's clubs to get "too big".......

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....

But I do not love the twaddle spoken about how they were "shafted" because they were "getting too big"

For goodness sake RL needs and would love ALL it's clubs to get "too big".......

There is no arguing the fact that Cougar Mania was working, the promotional activity of the club was hitting home, attendances were on the up.

Keighley were attracting custom that Bradford wanted. That's why thy were 'shafted', or so the hypothesis goes.

Now with all hypotheses it's there to be proved or disproved. It's not twaddle

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1. There is no arguing the fact that Cougar Mania was working.

2. Keighley were attracting custom that Bradford wanted. That's why thy were 'shafted', or so the hypothesis goes.

Now with all hypotheses it's there to be proved or disproved. It's not twaddle

1. It was not working. You have that wrong.

With respect the plan was simple, invest in the club, market the club to the people of Keighley and it's surrounds, and from the increased custom/revenue grow the club further into a Superleague club and attract even more fans until the club is competing with the other big boys in Superleague.

The fanbase rose from 1,000 to 4,000 and so yes the marketing helped bring in the fans, the marketing looked at "in isolation" worked a treat, but you have to have a product to market and that's the downside. A product costs money to create.

When the Keighley team that took the field in 1987 came bottom they had 445 fans.

That team could not be marketed at all. Keighley needed players that could do the business, nothing markets like success and so they bought such as Ian Gately, Darren Fleary, Martin Wood, Andre Stoop, Jason Ramshaw, Nick Pinkney, Simon Irving, Dave Larder and his dad Phil to coach the team.

The rise from the bottom of Division Two to the top of division Two was easy to sell.

I'd suggest you don't credit "Cougarmania" too much nor "Bullmania". This over the top razamatazz style of marketing is so darn successful nobody actually bothers with it any more.

What really saw Keighleys crowds rise was the quality team on the pitch and that costs money, as did tarting up Lawkholme Lane, as did the marketing budget and by the time Superleague came along the club were heaviliy in debt.

For "Marketing" to work there has to be a profit. At Keighley heavy losses were being run up. It simply did not work.

In 1999 HKR had gates of 2,000. With no marketing of any great note by 2009 they had gates of over 8,000. There was no "Robin Mania". What worked was the investment in players that took the team to the top of the second division, then into Superleague and up superleague to a top four finish.

However even at those gates the club could not give the directors a return on their investment that they are owed shedloads today, and the club leaks £500K a season on gates TWICE what Keighley had got to.

To market successfully you need customers who are attracted to your product. The good people of Bingley, Shipley, Burnley and "The Pennines" who Keighley proposed they "market to" were largely not big league enthusiasts and so.........

2. Uncle Mo did not want Keighley to be in Superleague vying for the sort of fans who would be better being attracted to a bigger club where there was more chance of investment in that club running up a return. Mo never suggested Keighley merge with Bradford as they would merely have brought large debt to the club. Mo knew "Cougarmania" was not working.

At the bigger club on 5,600 gates "Bullmania" was applied (along with the tiny matter of heavy investment in players) and the rest is history 15,000 gates and cabinets full of trophies.

Mo called it exactly right, and did not allow Keighleys failure to get in the way of the Bulls success.

No doubt some may come on here and moan that the Bull's bubble burst. It won't be any sort of an argument though because if the Bulls could not hack superleague in the end, on three to four times the fans that Keighley got how on earth were keighley EVER going to do it?

They weren't.

Bullmania was twaddle as was Cougarmania.......

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Bradford mimiked the Cougars ideas and the rest is history, Bulls also went bust big time.........

There I have edited your post for accuracy. :lol:

I don't think there was any call to be mean to the mighty Ange.......

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Keighley have to import most and at times all of their players to make up a team. Their champions of 1995 were all but Keith Dixon imported using money the club did not have. Their amateur and junior base is small. I can think of Keighley Albion and their junior section. Beyond that I am lost for another name. No professional players in todays game come from Keighley.

Strictly speaking the Cougar cubs are a separate organisation from Keighley Cougars. Whilst Keighley never has been a hothouse of rugby league, no big name players that I can think of ever came from Keighley, it had the potential in the 90s for this to change.

There are fair number of rugby league teams e.g. West Craven Warriors, Greetland etc that aren't in Keighley but are much closer to Keighley than to any other RL side that along with the Albion could have been the bedrock of a strong Cougars side.

edit: and whilst Cougarmania would not have happened without a decent team on the field, a decent team doesn't always see bigger crowds. Remember that Blackpool (RIP) and Gateshead both had strong NL2 seasons (Gateshead even won) but went bust afterwards when the crowds didn't turn up.

Not to mention that the average crowd at Cougar Park is higher now than before Cougarmania began. How many non-SL clubs can say that their attendances are higher now than they were in the early 90s?

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You are quite right to mock the cliches but they are true for all that. At the time Bradford were on 6,000 crowds and couldn't market stoves to Eskimos. Keighley were on 4000 crowds and pushing higher if in SL. They( you know who 'they'are) "shafted" ( Just to make you wince ) Keighley, enaged a marketing expert in Deakin, mimiced the Cougars ideas and the rest is history, Bullmania.

If that makes you quit supporting RL, well I,m sorry for you. Enjoy yourself watching Leeds Carnegie and the kickfest.

Were these the Keighley ideas that were happening in America for decades previously? Plus if memory serves me correct Deakin et al actually visited an American Football team to learn how they did it.

For what it's worth the RL could have made room for the promoted team that season and change things from then onwards. However clubs demise more often than not is down to the clubs and the people that run them.

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Strictly speaking the Cougar cubs are a separate organisation from Keighley Cougars. Whilst Keighley never has been a hothouse of rugby league, no big name players that I can think of ever came from Keighley, it had the potential in the 90s for this to change.

There are fair number of rugby league teams e.g. West Craven Warriors, Greetland etc that aren't in Keighley but are much closer to Keighley than to any other RL side that along with the Albion could have been the bedrock of a strong Cougars side.

edit: and whilst Cougarmania would not have happened without a decent team on the field, a decent team doesn't always see bigger crowds. Remember that Blackpool (RIP) and Gateshead both had strong NL2 seasons (Gateshead even won) but went bust afterwards when the crowds didn't turn up.

Not to mention that the average crowd at Cougar Park is higher now than before Cougarmania began. How many non-SL clubs can say that their attendances are higher now than they were in the early 90s?

Interesting thoughts there.

Has anyone a more definitive view of the extent of the junior game in Keighley?

Compared with say Oldham to keep this on track......

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Were these the Keighley ideas that were happening in America for decades previously? Plus if memory serves me correct Deakin et al actually visited an American Football team to learn how they did it.

For what it's worth the RL could have made room for the promoted team that season and change things from then onwards. However clubs demise more often than not is down to the clubs and the people that run them.

One of the two gentlemen behind Cougarmania actually worked in the US as radio DJ (or similar). It wasn't just a case of visiting an NFL side with a notebook and pen.

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Strictly speaking the Cougar cubs are a separate organisation from Keighley Cougars. Whilst Keighley never has been a hothouse of rugby league, no big name players that I can think of ever came from Keighley, it had the potential in the 90s for this to change.

There are fair number of rugby league teams e.g. West Craven Warriors, Greetland etc that aren't in Keighley but are much closer to Keighley than to any other RL side that along with the Albion could have been the bedrock of a strong Cougars side.

edit: and whilst Cougarmania would not have happened without a decent team on the field, a decent team doesn't always see bigger crowds. Remember that Blackpool (RIP) and Gateshead both had strong NL2 seasons (Gateshead even won) but went bust afterwards when the crowds didn't turn up.

Not to mention that the average crowd at Cougar Park is higher now than before Cougarmania began. How many non-SL clubs can say that their attendances are higher now than they were in the early 90s?

There is also Silsden, Cowling, Keighley Town, Worth Village and a report that there may be a team in Skipton starting up but these facts are inconvenient to Parksider so they are ignored. There is and was a whole hinterland to the north of Keighley capable of adding to their fan base but that is an inconvenient fact also.

There is also the fact that, had the team got to SL, they would have had SL money and mahybe would have got sponsors and/or investors. Mike Smith, I think it was him, claimed he had them lined up. Parksider says it was all lies. I, personally, do not know the truth of that.

The genius Mo Lyndsay, who was presiding over a dying league, was made to look good by the largesse of an Australian million/billionaire who wanted to control the TV market for RL in Europe to dispatch his rival milliionaire in Australia who was seriously threatening his hegemony of the Tv market down under. He was in the right place at the right time, nothing more. Paris was fools gold, everyone but him knew that the strength of French RL was in the South. Now he's gone we have realised that and capitalised. London was in the 2nd division and if you look at them today, you have to conclude that's that is where they should be. No fans, no ground, an embarassment when on TV both performancewise and with a less than quarterfull stadium.

Mergers, yea. That would have got rid of five current members of SL. He also never suggested the most obvious, St Helens and Wigan because that would have meant the demise of his beloved Wigan.whom he ran into financial trouble in just the same way that the Keighley investment did. the only difference kis we had a league with more cash rewards to move up to, Wigan didn't. Maurice Lyndsay was not the saviour Parksider makes him out to be.

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Were these the Keighley ideas that were happening in America for decades previously? Plus if memory serves me correct Deakin et al actually visited an American Football team to learn how they did it.

For what it's worth the RL could have made room for the promoted team that season and change things from then onwards. However clubs demise more often than not is down to the clubs and the people that run them.

I totally agree with that and if Keighley had got to SL and crashed and burned, it would have been on them. They would have done no worse than Oldham, Halifax, Paris and Workington who were in that original SL.

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There I have edited your post for accuracy. :lol:

I don't think there was any call to be mean to the mighty Ange.......

So many years later as to make that factr irrelevant to the pints under discussion. :rolleyes:

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1. I stood high up on the marvellous north terrace to will Keighley to get some sort of score to negate Jeff Heatons solitary try of the game and go to Wembley. 7,000 at Lawkholme for the quarter final, 10,000 at Fartown........

2. The formation of Superleague was all about making strategic decisions including mergers, and the introduction of expansion clubs in Toulouse, Paris and London.

There was no real question of "promotion". Keighley had no chance whilst mergers were on the cards because Mo Lyndsay never even bothered to suggest Keighley merge with Bradford.

Probably because he did not want tens of thousands of pounds of keighley debt to be merged with the Bulls.

The promotion was two up into and two down from a 16 club first division. As it happened (guys and gals) Superleague was a 12 club league and so both the "promoted" AND relegated clubs missed out and four more clubs besides.

To suggest Keighley had a right to get in SL on the basis of jumping from the 17th. placed club into a top 12 league is frankly utter nonsense.

Why would the RFL/SLE pick the 17th. place club for a 12 team Superleague.

Indeed why would they pick a heavily indebted club whose artificial bubble was going to burst anyway??

And that was what was "BIG" about Keighley, it was one great big fat bubble that was going to burst, and the people who ran up all that hot air in a bubble needed someone to blame for the failure. Mo and the RFL. :rolleyes:

And lord knows how disgraceful it was for League Express to give Smith a platform 17 years on to spout off about it all over again. :angry:

With respect your deluded that Keighley were made to move over for Paris or London.

The idea of Superleague was that it would break RL out of the M62, and that it would be an elite of big clubs.

Put these in any order you want but the first four choices for SL were Wigan, Paris, Leeds and London.

You flatter Keighley to suggest they were shafted to allow Paris or London in.

90,000 people live in Keighley today. Unlike most RL clubs keighley have never been "too big" not in 136 years of their existence.

Keighley have to import most and at times all of their players to make up a team. Their champions of 1995 were all but Keith Dixon imported using money the club did not have. Their amateur and junior base is small. I can think of Keighley Albion and their junior section. Beyond that I am lost for another name. No professional players in todays game come from Keighley.

I love the ground below Ilkley moor, I love the atmosphere. I love the club, I love the many visits I make there....

But I do not love the twaddle spoken about how they were "shafted" because they were "getting too big"

For goodness sake RL needs and would love ALL it's clubs to get "too big".......

So why weren't Featherstone who finished 11th included in SL?

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1. It was not working. You have that wrong.

With respect the plan was simple, invest in the club, market the club to the people of Keighley and it's surrounds, and from the increased custom/revenue grow the club further into a Superleague club and attract even more fans until the club is competing with the other big boys in Superleague.

The fanbase rose from 1,000 to 4,000 and so yes the marketing helped bring in the fans, the marketing looked at "in isolation" worked a treat, but you have to have a product to market and that's the downside. A product costs money to create.

When the Keighley team that took the field in 1987 came bottom they had 445 fans.

That team could not be marketed at all. Keighley needed players that could do the business, nothing markets like success and so they bought such as Ian Gately, Darren Fleary, Martin Wood, Andre Stoop, Jason Ramshaw, Nick Pinkney, Simon Irving, Dave Larder and his dad Phil to coach the team.

The rise from the bottom of Division Two to the top of division Two was easy to sell.

I'd suggest you don't credit "Cougarmania" too much nor "Bullmania". This over the top razamatazz style of marketing is so darn successful nobody actually bothers with it any more.

What really saw Keighleys crowds rise was the quality team on the pitch and that costs money, as did tarting up Lawkholme Lane, as did the marketing budget and by the time Superleague came along the club were heaviliy in debt.

For "Marketing" to work there has to be a profit. At Keighley heavy losses were being run up. It simply did not work.

In 1999 HKR had gates of 2,000. With no marketing of any great note by 2009 they had gates of over 8,000. There was no "Robin Mania". What worked was the investment in players that took the team to the top of the second division, then into Superleague and up superleague to a top four finish.

However even at those gates the club could not give the directors a return on their investment that they are owed shedloads today, and the club leaks £500K a season on gates TWICE what Keighley had got to.

To market successfully you need customers who are attracted to your product. The good people of Bingley, Shipley, Burnley and "The Pennines" who Keighley proposed they "market to" were largely not big league enthusiasts and so.........

2. Uncle Mo did not want Keighley to be in Superleague vying for the sort of fans who would be better being attracted to a bigger club where there was more chance of investment in that club running up a return. Mo never suggested Keighley merge with Bradford as they would merely have brought large debt to the club. Mo knew "Cougarmania" was not working.

At the bigger club on 5,600 gates "Bullmania" was applied (along with the tiny matter of heavy investment in players) and the rest is history 15,000 gates and cabinets full of trophies.

Mo called it exactly right, and did not allow Keighleys failure to get in the way of the Bulls success.

No doubt some may come on here and moan that the Bull's bubble burst. It won't be any sort of an argument though because if the Bulls could not hack superleague in the end, on three to four times the fans that Keighley got how on earth were keighley EVER going to do it?

They weren't.

Bullmania was twaddle as was Cougarmania.......

Bradford were champions in the Peter Fox coaching regime. They were lucky if they averaged 6,000.They must have had a decent team, they were the champions of RL.

So that's not the whole story is it?. I will accept that you need to have a good product before you can market it. So when Bradford bought players and again became a good team, why did they not still only draw the 6,000 they were drawing in the Peter Fox Northern championship era. I would suggest to you that Deakin and his marketing, not just at the field. but all the offfield stuff also, contributed mightily to the Bulls moving up to the 15,000 average.

The same thing happened at Keighley. They assembled a good team and then marketed it heavily. The ascent from crowds of 4 hundred to well above 4,000 and all in the lower divisions was due to a combination of both a good team and good marketing. Just so you know, they did not rise from the bottom of Div 2 to the top, they rose from the bottom of Division 3 to the top of Division 2.

You know full well that Keighley went into debt and gambled on getting to Sl and all the extra money, Sky, attendances, sponsors,investors that were likely to come with it. A dangerous game to be sure, but they did win the said promotion only for the fix and the shaft to be instituted by brother Lyndsay and his cabal. The descendants of that crew are still at the same game, looking to jettison a third of SL and cut off all lower divisions to line their own nests.

The crowds attracted to Keighley did not go the the Bulls. You just don't understand the demographics of the two areas. The people of Keighley just do not identify with Bradford. Even though they have been lumped into the greater Bradford metropolis by the politicians, they are not too happy with the arrangement.

If Hull KR had done some serious marketing, maybe they would have increased their crowds to 10,000 and broke even. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

It is amazing that in the same post, you can allege that Courgarmania was not working but Bullmania did work and then reverse course again and say that both Cougarmania and Bullmania were twaddle. You are not on Mitt Romneys staff, are you, just say anything as long as it suits your current point, even in the same post no less.

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