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The pros and cons of club link ups

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You dont need anyone to get one over on you, every time you post you make yourself look a complete clown

well spotted

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the OP is right to ask about pros and cons.

It's a question of balance

in many ways smaller clubs have been 'feeder clubs' fgor a large part of the history of the game in an informal way.

When players were bought and sold smaller clubs survived by selling quality talent to big clubs: when I think omy own club, it goes back to Hunslet's all four cups side, right through to Vic Darlison, Billy Stott, Tommy Smales, Gary Cooper, Vaughan Thomas, Terry Clawson, Steve and so on right up to Zak Hardaker.

The situation is different now in that it is formalised and it brings issues as well as benefits...jisrt as it did in the good old days

The balance of those benefits seems to be in favour as you would expect of the big clubs. They save money, keep on board a wide resevoir of talent that gets developed by some high quality coaches alongsise their own coaches.

The Championship/ Championship 1 clubs get to survive in a nightmare economic climate, and get to have talented players at little cost.

The main problem seems to be identity and for want of a better expression 'sovereignty'. I can understand this and it concerns me also.

But what sickens me is the judgmental shrieking from people who are lucky not to be in that position-depite sharing an income stream and sponsorship from an SL club.

'Selling yout soul' for crying out loud, boycotting clubs who have one of these arrangements-up to thrm I guess but how sanctimonious, especially considering that one of their club's major benefactors specialises in tax avoidance for the rich.

It's flawed, but well done for the smaller clubs for giving something a go.

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I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

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I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

well said

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Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

Its been about making money since, er let me think, oh yes, 1895, the problem is its been about making it and apart from a short post WWII spell its made none.

You don't need to make money in just this climate, you need to make it in every climate.

What is happening is that, for those clubs that want it, is the call for SL money to be spread around is actually happening, SL clubs are providing players, coaches and facilities to clubs who may never have access to people and facilities of that standard. The SL club aren't taking a cut in the business, they don't want a cut of beer and pie money, they do want to spread some costs and improve the throughput of RL players across the board, yes they hope they gain an advantage from it, then again the championship clubs are seeking to gain an advantage as well.

Maybe the championship clubs signing up are being realistic about where their future lies, maybe the ones not signing up are the only ones with true SL ambitions and don't talk the SL here we come crapolla to try make them look like something they are a long way off.

Like it or not, we live in the world of season 2013 coming up and not in the season 1895, 1913, 1973 or 1994. 1913 was a world away in RL terms from 1895 and 1973 was a solar system away from 1913, by 1994 the distance was heading to galaxy away from 1973 and exponentially we are now even further away, we are on the edges of the universe compared to 1994.

The departure from our past is accelerating, and if you try and turn around and go back you'll just find everyone else moving in the opposite direction.

Forget the past it is done, that doesn't mean forget history, don't think for one minute that dumping the past is dumping 'tradition', RL has a 'tradition' of dumping the past, We need to move forward, all of the time, moving forward means re-evaluating all the time where we stand (as a game, as clubs, as supporters) in the scheme of things.

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the OP is right to ask about pros and cons.

It's a question of balance

in many ways smaller clubs have been 'feeder clubs' fgor a large part of the history of the game in an informal way.

When players were bought and sold smaller clubs survived by selling quality talent to big clubs: when I think omy own club, it goes back to Hunslet's all four cups side, right through to Vic Darlison, Billy Stott, Tommy Smales, Gary Cooper, Vaughan Thomas, Terry Clawson, Steve and so on right up to Zak Hardaker.

The situation is different now in that it is formalised and it brings issues as well as benefits...jisrt as it did in the good old days

The balance of those benefits seems to be in favour as you would expect of the big clubs. They save money, keep on board a wide resevoir of talent that gets developed by some high quality coaches alongsise their own coaches.

The Championship/ Championship 1 clubs get to survive in a nightmare economic climate, and get to have talented players at little cost.

The main problem seems to be identity and for want of a better expression 'sovereignty'. I can understand this and it concerns me also.

But what sickens me is the judgmental shrieking from people who are lucky not to be in that position-depite sharing an income stream and sponsorship from an SL club.

'Selling yout soul' for crying out loud, boycotting clubs who have one of these arrangements-up to thrm I guess but how sanctimonious, especially considering that one of their club's major benefactors specialises in tax avoidance for the rich.

It's flawed, but well done for the smaller clubs for giving something a go.

Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like

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Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like

So your answer to the problem of the game not having enough money is to give it less money, are you a bank manager.

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the zealots have spoken.

You have sold your soul, and if you think any different then you don't know what you are talking about.

let that be an end to it.

on the other hand these are the same people 'had it on good authority' that Crusaders were flown to away games by private jet when they were in the Championship, and who only within the last couple of weeks knew 'from a realiable source from within the club' that Salford were moving back to The Willows.

edit: of course there are caveats about this initiative as Tim2 quite rightly points out, but the reaction that you and others who can see the benefits of it have recieved from some circles-especially the one you mention is so deep in the backwoods it's suffocating in leaf mould.

If I'm a zealot, then so be it! I must be because you say so and because I don't agree with you. Don't treat me and other honest fans of my club with the obvious contempt you have for us. If you don't like what you hear, don't resort to this childish name calling.

When will you accept that a large number of (note, I didn't say "most" or a "majority" because you'd no doubt come back on that one with demands for me to prove it) fans are what they are. Their club comes first. Why do people support a particular club and not another? It's tribal, not intellectual. I'm no different from others on that or this thread in stating my opposition to this scheme...now get me my shotgun; I'm off hunting bears.....

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I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs historu due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

This move has come about by an attempt to save money. What if it gets to the stage where these 'link up' clubs become so reliable on SL that they can't sustain by themselves and a cheaper alternative comes about? I think that the SL club will save money and won't really consider the history of other clubs as it isn't relevant top them. Rugby League is just turning into all about making money, which isn't what sport is about. You obviously need to make money to survive in this climate but is it really worth having a short spell of financially stability to sacrifice the soul and history of your club and lose independence. IMO no, but I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

Let me get this right....you are claiming Rugby League is 'all about making money', yet give a football club as an example of honourable endeavour and fighting against big business?

:D :D :D :D

You couldn't make it up, except you just did.

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Let me get this right....you are claiming Rugby League is 'all about making money', yet give a football club as an example of honourable endeavour and fighting against big business?

:D :D :D :D

You couldn't make it up, except you just did.

Whoooosh! I think the point that Barrowraiderskid was making just flew right over your head.

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Whoooosh! I think the point that Barrowraiderskid was making just flew right over your head.

No it didn't whatsoever. It was the 'sports clubs are not businesses' routine. Then he uses football as a great example. Perhaps Man Utd or Liverpool have morphed into charities overnight but they are definitely businesses, perhaps you think their share price indicates otherwise?

Fear not though, because Rugby League can exist in a vacuum unaffected by modern business issues.

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Well there you have i,t no one can tell me were to spend my money, i i will not be spending it at any feeder club. Makes no difference to you because you will carry on as always and get your free pass to any game you like

and nobody is trying to tell you how to spend it.

What are your views on comanies that specialise in tax avoidance doe the rich

presumably you object on moral grounds to your club sharing a lottery with and being sponsored by Leeds Rhinos.

Yet again you know nothing of my financial contribution to my own club, or my practical contribution to other clubs and it's none of your or anybody elses business. Do you have to pay to go to work?

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If I'm a zealot, then so be it! I must be because you say so and because I don't agree with you. Don't treat me and other honest fans of my club with the obvious contempt you have for us. If you don't like what you hear, don't resort to this childish name calling.

When will you accept that a large number of (note, I didn't say "most" or a "majority" because you'd no doubt come back on that one with demands for me to prove it) fans are what they are. Their club comes first. Why do people support a particular club and not another? It's tribal, not intellectual. I'm no different from others on that or this thread in stating my opposition to this scheme...now get me my shotgun; I'm off hunting bears.....

if you want childish name calling check the output of 'Lowfield'. If you want contempt check out the same person's treatment of Gav Wilson on your club's 'forum'.

I've supported my club for over 50 years, worked for it full time unpaid in various roles for 23 of those(again it pains me to say that), so don't lecture me about 'tribalism'.

In case you didn't notice I expressed what I thought were the shortcomings of the scheme in a previous post.

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and so it goes on.... and on.... and on.... and on.......

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I think it is far too easy for some people to dismiss money as being important in sport.

Keeping a sports club alive is often left to one or two people to pump in thousands and thousands (often millions) of pounds of their own cash.

Sometimes, I think fans have a bit of a cheek. BTW - I include myself in this as I have criticised investors, directors etc. in the past.

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and so it goes on.... and on.... and on.... and on.......

36000 times

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i will not be spending it at any feeder club.

That's good then, 'cos there aren't any.

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I recall when Barrow AFC played Darlington in a home game when Darlington feared it may be the last game in the clubs history due to financial troubles and I helped hold up a huge banner which read 'A football club is for life, not just for Business.' It received a fairly decent amount of attention on twitter from pundits and journalists. The same statement comes to mind in this situation but with RL clubs. Sport isn't a business in the eyes of the majority of fans, it never has and it never will be. This 'link up' removes many of the aspects why you support a club. I support my club because everything which goes behind it, the community, the fans, the local coaching and players and the way it is run to please fans. In this system you are removing the latter 3 which will result in the clubs loyal fans leaving and then the community will not get involved as you are basically being a branch of an SL club. You are basically removing the soul of clubs and what makes them clubs. There is a huge difference between a club and a business plan, I don't care about a business plan but I care about my club. The statement 'A football club is for life not just for business,' is very true and this system just goes totally against it.

I can understand if you disagree its more of a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong.

A brilliant paragraph there, and an excellent rider so I won't say you are wrong.

I too as someone with a club who was the first to come out and be a feeder recognise everything you say.

My dad introduced me to Hunslet and my mates introduced me to Leeds. My dad got there first so that's where the heart is. The head watched as Leeds picked off our best after the 1965 cup final - Ramsey and Kenny Eyre - then I watched as the best never turned up and went elsewhere by passing us - Heron and Schofield. We still ran as a proper pro club does - colts, "A" team and then Seniors. We still competed and occasionally became first division - we beat Leeds in 1978 WOW! what a day.

We had ambition and we achieved although our success was relative. We still had local lads who'd become heroes, some still left Jimmy Lowes and Sonny Nickle and Jamie Thackray, some stayed to became club legends like Graham King and Mick Coyle, but all this went pop in 2000 when SL shut the door.

Since then we just "survived" and it wasn't much fun. Gates dropped. Players we never got to know came and went in droves, and the club just weren't attractive to the majority type of fan who wants to see their team win as much as possible, so they either packed in or went to Leeds. New fans just went to Leeds.

Even the fans who started watching the club because they liked the lower division game and the struggle - many people don't "follow the crowd" I didn't and four mates didn't, - started to peel away until we could count a crowd in two minutes..........

2006 Hunslet.v.Barrow 311

2008 Hunslet.v.Workington 314 we came 34th. out of 34 in the Rugby Football League that year.

This all came to a head when Stephen Ball called the fans together. We all came 150 of us - I counted us. I was one of the youngest there for heavens sake. Syd Rookes at 92 was the oldest, I have pictures of Rookes in action for the club. Ball bullied people into reaching into their pockets but my heart was not in it any more. Knowing the history of the club - what made it rise, what made it strong, what made it succeed against the odds, and why it captured hearts - i didn't think losing a couple of hundred quid to Ball (whom Hetherington had sent to save us but who publicly vowed not to put a penny in the club) was something my heart was going to do.

My heart said let the flaming thing die a respectable death. My opinion that's all...........

Yes a football club is more for life than business, but there are times when your own life cycle supporting a club comes to an end and there are times when the clubs life cycle also comes to and end and that is best illustrated by my good friends at Bramley.

The link up with Leeds to me (and I was a big "A" team fan) makes Hunslet Leeds "A" team full stop. It doesn't matter what "labels" (it's still Hunslet) and slants (It's good for the game) and "advantages" (it will secure the clubs future, you'll get to see exciting players) you want to put on things on my behalf.

All that counts is as you say Mr. Barrow raiderskid with an old mans head on his shoulders "a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong".

I'll not fully articulate my opinion as I respect entirely what Blackpool Hawk and his colleagues are doing, and personally want to do. I'll just take the decsion Duncan Bannatyne usually takes on Dragon's Den when his heart isn't in a proposal.

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and so it goes on.... and on.... and on.... and on.......

what are your views on the morality and fairness of tax avoidance?

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36000 times

Suggy. Do thi sen a favour here. Chris' posts so obviously wind you up. Stay away from him. There is no need to go searching for him. I could be wrong here but it looks like Chris is staying away from our forum for the time being at least. That should be enough for you that you coast is clear for all things fev....No need to barge in regardless if his verbage gives you the hump. Just keep thi distance for the sake of humanity and everything that's sane! All you're doing is causing more crapola that 99% of folks don't want to read and moving away from the topic being discussed.

"he started it" sheeite???? Give it a rest now monkey boy!

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what are your views on the morality and fairness of tax avoidance?

Chris. Give it a rest mate. Your propensity for responding and exacerbating toxic interactions - thread after thread- causing de-railment after de-railment doesn't lend itself to forum enjoyment either. Ignore suggy or whoever is giving you the hump if that is the case. But this topic is NOT about you and suggy yet we are treated to more of the same. A "well he started it sir" does not help! Honestly mate, it does no-one any good (barring perhaps yourself, only you can answer that)by responding how you do.

This thread isn't about tax avoidance Chris.

Yours in Zealotry........

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I've never known why folk allow themselves to get so wound up by someone they will probably never meet on the internets.

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I've never known why folk allow themselves to get so wound up by someone they will probably never meet on the internets.

Wait....there's more than one internet?

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I've never known why folk allow themselves to get so wound up by someone they will probably never meet on the internets.

I know em both well. They're both my mates!!!! Can you remember that programme on BBC2 about 12 years ago - "living with the enemy"? There was an interesting peice of social commentary when 2 apparent homophobes FROM Lock Lane R.L.F.C went to live with a gay couple in London for a fortnight. That kind of thing. Rail crash TV!!

Now Chris living at Suggy's for a fortnight would make that look like a birthday party at the Walton's!

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I know em both well. They're both my mates!!!! Can you remember that programme on BBC2 about 12 years ago - "living with the enemy"? There was an interesting peice of social commentary when 2 apparent homophobes went to live with a gay couple in London for a fortnight. That kind of thing. Rail crash TV!!Now Chris living at Suggy's for a fortnight would make that look like a birthday party at the Walton's!

Robin, the imagery conjured up by that post is mind blowing.

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