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HKR AWAY DAYS

The pros and cons of club link ups

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I know em both well. They're both my mates!!!! Can you remember that programme on BBC2 about 12 years ago - "living with the enemy"? There was an interesting peice of social commentary when 2 apparent homophobes FROM Lock Lane R.L.F.C went to live with a gay couple in London for a fortnight. That kind of thing. Rail crash TV!!

Now Chris living at Suggy's for a fortnight would make that look like a birthday party at the Walton's!

I bet in real life they would get on like a house on fire... ;)

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Let me get this right....you are claiming Rugby League is 'all about making money', yet give a football club as an example of honourable endeavour and fighting against big business?

:D :D :D :D

You couldn't make it up, except you just did.

I don't see your point? I used a football club as an example because they used the statement? The rest of the sport and is not relevant to the point whatsoever, I just believe in the statement which was put up and so did the 2,000 or so fans in the ground.

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No it didn't whatsoever. It was the 'sports clubs are not businesses' routine. Then he uses football as a great example. Perhaps Man Utd or Liverpool have morphed into charities overnight but they are definitely businesses, perhaps you think their share price indicates otherwise?

Fear not though, because Rugby League can exist in a vacuum unaffected by modern business issues.

Quote me where I used Manchester United and Liverpool as examples? You've got the word 'football' into your head and assumed I made the comparision which I didn't and you've missed the point.

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Its been about making money since, er let me think, oh yes, 1895, the problem is its been about making it and apart from a short post WWII spell its made none.

You don't need to make money in just this climate, you need to make it in every climate.

What is happening is that, for those clubs that want it, is the call for SL money to be spread around is actually happening, SL clubs are providing players, coaches and facilities to clubs who may never have access to people and facilities of that standard. The SL club aren't taking a cut in the business, they don't want a cut of beer and pie money, they do want to spread some costs and improve the throughput of RL players across the board, yes they hope they gain an advantage from it, then again the championship clubs are seeking to gain an advantage as well.

Maybe the championship clubs signing up are being realistic about where their future lies, maybe the ones not signing up are the only ones with true SL ambitions and don't talk the SL here we come crapolla to try make them look like something they are a long way off.

Like it or not, we live in the world of season 2013 coming up and not in the season 1895, 1913, 1973 or 1994. 1913 was a world away in RL terms from 1895 and 1973 was a solar system away from 1913, by 1994 the distance was heading to galaxy away from 1973 and exponentially we are now even further away, we are on the edges of the universe compared to 1994.

The departure from our past is accelerating, and if you try and turn around and go back you'll just find everyone else moving in the opposite direction.

Forget the past it is done, that doesn't mean forget history, don't think for one minute that dumping the past is dumping 'tradition', RL has a 'tradition' of dumping the past, We need to move forward, all of the time, moving forward means re-evaluating all the time where we stand (as a game, as clubs, as supporters) in the scheme of things.

Very good post and I agree on most points. I just feel there needs to be a better balance of moving forward but still keeping your identity as a club. The main point I tried to make is that this system removes the reason you support a club, especially for the 'die hard fans.' Maybe this is the only sustainable way CC clubs can sustain in this climate and if so then it's the right choice, but I just think there way be better ways of being sustainable without coming overly reliant on an SL club and removing big parts of the tradition of clubs.

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A brilliant paragraph there, and an excellent rider so I won't say you are wrong.

I too as someone with a club who was the first to come out and be a feeder recognise everything you say.

My dad introduced me to Hunslet and my mates introduced me to Leeds. My dad got there first so that's where the heart is. The head watched as Leeds picked off our best after the 1965 cup final - Ramsey and Kenny Eyre - then I watched as the best never turned up and went elsewhere by passing us - Heron and Schofield. We still ran as a proper pro club does - colts, "A" team and then Seniors. We still competed and occasionally became first division - we beat Leeds in 1978 WOW! what a day.

We had ambition and we achieved although our success was relative. We still had local lads who'd become heroes, some still left Jimmy Lowes and Sonny Nickle and Jamie Thackray, some stayed to became club legends like Graham King and Mick Coyle, but all this went pop in 2000 when SL shut the door.

Since then we just "survived" and it wasn't much fun. Gates dropped. Players we never got to know came and went in droves, and the club just weren't attractive to the majority type of fan who wants to see their team win as much as possible, so they either packed in or went to Leeds. New fans just went to Leeds.

Even the fans who started watching the club because they liked the lower division game and the struggle - many people don't "follow the crowd" I didn't and four mates didn't, - started to peel away until we could count a crowd in two minutes..........

2006 Hunslet.v.Barrow 311

2008 Hunslet.v.Workington 314 we came 34th. out of 34 in the Rugby Football League that year.

This all came to a head when Stephen Ball called the fans together. We all came 150 of us - I counted us. I was one of the youngest there for heavens sake. Syd Rookes at 92 was the oldest, I have pictures of Rookes in action for the club. Ball bullied people into reaching into their pockets but my heart was not in it any more. Knowing the history of the club - what made it rise, what made it strong, what made it succeed against the odds, and why it captured hearts - i didn't think losing a couple of hundred quid to Ball (whom Hetherington had sent to save us but who publicly vowed not to put a penny in the club) was something my heart was going to do.

My heart said let the flaming thing die a respectable death. My opinion that's all...........

Yes a football club is more for life than business, but there are times when your own life cycle supporting a club comes to an end and there are times when the clubs life cycle also comes to and end and that is best illustrated by my good friends at Bramley.

The link up with Leeds to me (and I was a big "A" team fan) makes Hunslet Leeds "A" team full stop. It doesn't matter what "labels" (it's still Hunslet) and slants (It's good for the game) and "advantages" (it will secure the clubs future, you'll get to see exciting players) you want to put on things on my behalf.

All that counts is as you say Mr. Barrow raiderskid with an old mans head on his shoulders "a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong".

I'll not fully articulate my opinion as I respect entirely what Blackpool Hawk and his colleagues are doing, and personally want to do. I'll just take the decsion Duncan Bannatyne usually takes on Dragon's Den when his heart isn't in a proposal.

Brilliant post I agree with the last 4 paragraphs completely and the first few show how much passion you have for your club.

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Wait....there's more than one internet?

Yep, unfortunately you don't meet the criteria for our SuperNet :P

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Quote me where I used Manchester United and Liverpool as examples? You've got the word 'football' into your head and assumed I made the comparision which I didn't and you've missed the point.

You were praising a football team whilst declaring that RL is all about making money now. Well look into it and you'll find that if any sport is now about money, its football. I'm sure there are exceptions and your post was not wrong in essence but can you seriously tell me that soccer has not been affected by the money.

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Yep, unfortunately you don't meet the criteria for our SuperNet :P

See what you did there.....marvellous!!

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Yep, unfortunately you don't meet the criteria for our SuperNet :P

agreed.... amusing! :lol: :lol:

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Will put my awards on the table anytime against his and yours and money on it if you like
I don't indulge in willy measuring contests on the internets. Sorry.

internet-serious-business.jpg

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Very good post and I agree on most points. I just feel there needs to be a better balance of moving forward but still keeping your identity as a club. The main point I tried to make is that this system removes the reason you support a club, especially for the 'die hard fans.' Maybe this is the only sustainable way CC clubs can sustain in this climate and if so then it's the right choice, but I just think there way be better ways of being sustainable without coming overly reliant on an SL club and removing big parts of the tradition of clubs.

If there are way better ways of championship clubs being sustainable then I'm sure by now someone would have thought of it. Only a handful, if that of championship clubs have any realistic chance in the short term of being in with a shout of SL, the others are (like a few SL clubs) teetering on the brink.

Business A needs to cut costs to remain competitive and has under used assets, business B needs to cut costs and invest in new assets to try and become competitive. A classic case for co-operation if ever there was one.

Customers of A may not like B and vice versa, however the option may be no A, no B, or worse still no A and B. Before you know it your long loved product has gone, don't worry though the far inferior produces of a slightly similar but far inferior product with less beef and more fat will now have a free hand to market their all conquering brand to the populace.

Supporters may hate sport being described in business terms, however the club only goes mammaries skywards when the business does. The business may go belly up because the team has, but it is always the business failure that pulls a club down.

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A brilliant paragraph there, and an excellent rider so I won't say you are wrong.

I too as someone with a club who was the first to come out and be a feeder recognise everything you say.

My dad introduced me to Hunslet and my mates introduced me to Leeds. My dad got there first so that's where the heart is. The head watched as Leeds picked off our best after the 1965 cup final - Ramsey and Kenny Eyre - then I watched as the best never turned up and went elsewhere by passing us - Heron and Schofield. We still ran as a proper pro club does - colts, "A" team and then Seniors. We still competed and occasionally became first division - we beat Leeds in 1978 WOW! what a day.

We had ambition and we achieved although our success was relative. We still had local lads who'd become heroes, some still left Jimmy Lowes and Sonny Nickle and Jamie Thackray, some stayed to became club legends like Graham King and Mick Coyle, but all this went pop in 2000 when SL shut the door.

Since then we just "survived" and it wasn't much fun. Gates dropped. Players we never got to know came and went in droves, and the club just weren't attractive to the majority type of fan who wants to see their team win as much as possible, so they either packed in or went to Leeds. New fans just went to Leeds.

Even the fans who started watching the club because they liked the lower division game and the struggle - many people don't "follow the crowd" I didn't and four mates didn't, - started to peel away until we could count a crowd in two minutes..........

2006 Hunslet.v.Barrow 311

2008 Hunslet.v.Workington 314 we came 34th. out of 34 in the Rugby Football League that year.

This all came to a head when Stephen Ball called the fans together. We all came 150 of us - I counted us. I was one of the youngest there for heavens sake. Syd Rookes at 92 was the oldest, I have pictures of Rookes in action for the club. Ball bullied people into reaching into their pockets but my heart was not in it any more. Knowing the history of the club - what made it rise, what made it strong, what made it succeed against the odds, and why it captured hearts - i didn't think losing a couple of hundred quid to Ball (whom Hetherington had sent to save us but who publicly vowed not to put a penny in the club) was something my heart was going to do.

My heart said let the flaming thing die a respectable death. My opinion that's all...........

Yes a football club is more for life than business, but there are times when your own life cycle supporting a club comes to an end and there are times when the clubs life cycle also comes to and end and that is best illustrated by my good friends at Bramley.

The link up with Leeds to me (and I was a big "A" team fan) makes Hunslet Leeds "A" team full stop. It doesn't matter what "labels" (it's still Hunslet) and slants (It's good for the game) and "advantages" (it will secure the clubs future, you'll get to see exciting players) you want to put on things on my behalf.

All that counts is as you say Mr. Barrow raiderskid with an old mans head on his shoulders "a matter of opinions rather than who's right or wrong".

I'll not fully articulate my opinion as I respect entirely what Blackpool Hawk and his colleagues are doing, and personally want to do. I'll just take the decsion Duncan Bannatyne usually takes on Dragon's Den when his heart isn't in a proposal.

Great post Parksider and I agree with everything apart from that "it makes us Leeds A team full stop" How do you come to this conclusion? And what are you basing this comment on?

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Great post Parksider and I agree with everything apart from that "it makes us Leeds A team full stop" How do you come to this conclusion? And what are you basing this comment on?

Our "A" team in it's glory days contained people to just sustain it as a team. Alan Preece played as player coach, and such as Freddy Cliff and Dave Mawson played regularly and these lads played for quite a time and never saw the first team.

That gave the framework for the basis of the team where the up and coming kids who could get into the sfirst team in time, if they had a longish run at open age one step down where they could ply their trade against people like Preece, Cliff and Mawson in other teams who were always going to "toughen you up".

These lads either made it or they didn't, from that team at the time a lad called Geoff Nicholls made it and he knocked Dave Marshall out of the side. Geoff was such an exciting player that eventually he was bought by Barrow - c'est la vie.

But other kids like Phil Sanderson Steve Barron, Steve Hudson, George Clark came through and we cheered them on to relatively minor achievements but all Hunslet lads and all memorable, even today I can see the tries they scored and the hard time Steve Barron gave his oppo's.

In my opinion we are being set up to work as Leeds "A" team. Our players don't matter, they are the vehicle for Leeds players to shine and succeed. Phil Sanderson was a great player, he eventually went to Leeds (and later Bradford where he and Grayshon led the walk off at HKR) but we cheered him on for several seasons as our player, and he only went when Parkside closed.

It's one thing losing some of your best players in time, it's another thing you being set up to automatically lose all of them who make the grade as soon as they make it. Whilst I know a player that doesn't make it at Leeds may sign on at Hunslet, I look back at such players and find few fond memories of them, perhaps only Bryan Murrell.

But as i say don't mind me, the way things are going may be good for the game and more people may enjoy the new set up so it can be a positive thing. Just not for me.

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The thing that baffles me, and I am clearly looking at this in a basic way, but how are clubs losing their identity? Swinton will still be Swinton. They will play at their current ground, be called Swinton, wear a Swinton kit and so on.

The Dual registration thing was here last year, some like it some don;t fine, but what has suddenly made things much worse? If Swinton now have access to some of Warrington's facilities, or maybe access to some of the backroom staff, then, again, I ask what is the issue?

People often talk about RL being on the pitch, not the backroom stuff, but as soon as clubs do something that may help them to cust costs then suddenly they want to focus on off-field stuff.

Surely a person from Swinton could still go and watch Swinton as they always have, with little impact. If Swinton now have less chance of going bust due to cost cutting, then is that a bad thing?

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The thing that baffles me, and I am clearly looking at this in a basic way, but how are clubs losing their identity? Swinton will still be Swinton. They will play at their current ground, be called Swinton, wear a Swinton kit and so on.

The Dual registration thing was here last year, some like it some don;t fine, but what has suddenly made things much worse? If Swinton now have access to some of Warrington's facilities, or maybe access to some of the backroom staff, then, again, I ask what is the issue?

People often talk about RL being on the pitch, not the backroom stuff, but as soon as clubs do something that may help them to cust costs then suddenly they want to focus on off-field stuff.

Surely a person from Swinton could still go and watch Swinton as they always have, with little impact. If Swinton now have less chance of going bust due to cost cutting, then is that a bad thing?

Way too much common sense in there.

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The thing that baffles me, and I am clearly looking at this in a basic way, but how are clubs losing their identity?

Primarily they lose their independence.

Once reliant on a supposed competitive rival they become "dependent".

So they cannot function independently and are beholden to the benefactor.

They become reliant on the benefactor.

They may want to one day be top dogs, but that's not even a dream when you are only standing because someone is propping you up and if you get shirty that prop can be kicked from under you.

Take it further. Leeds provide 17 of the Hunslet team rather than 6. They play on the Hunslet ground, they play in Hunslet shirts, they are called Hunslet..........

Do you really think I'd sit there and cheer?

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Way too much common sense in there.

I disagree.

Are small clubs supposed to be thankful that the big clubs prop them up taking into account the big clubs would let them die if there wasn't something in it for them?

By all means you can be personally happy such assistance may preserve the Hornets, but don't patronise me that it's common sense.

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Primarily they lose their independence.

Once reliant on a supposed competitive rival they become "dependent".

So they cannot function independently and are beholden to the benefactor.

They become reliant on the benefactor.

They may want to one day be top dogs, but that's not even a dream when you are only standing because someone is propping you up and if you get shirty that prop can be kicked from under you.

Take it further. Leeds provide 17 of the Hunslet team rather than 6. They play on the Hunslet ground, they play in Hunslet shirts, they are called Hunslet..........

Do you really think I'd sit there and cheer?

The alternative is you have nobody to cheer, oddly enough some see that as a better option.

why would an SL club want to supply everything though, instead of spreading the cost they would just be taking on more costs, it wouldn't make financial sense to go all the way to your extreme.

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Take it further. Leeds provide 17 of the Hunslet team rather than 6. They play on the Hunslet ground, they play in Hunslet shirts, they are called Hunslet..........

Do you really think I'd sit there and cheer?

but thats a situation that you have made up rather than the reality.

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but thats a situation that you have made up rather than the reality.

It's an extension of the proposed situation. The point has been regularly made, and it's one I agree with that fans are fans and go to games because the fancy takes them. Many things drive that fancy many things "turn them off".

Some fans come and go back, some fans leave and don't go back, some fans only leave by being carried away in a box. They all feel different ways about their clubs and their clubs situation.

I just don't think that if a club becomes beholden to another and a fan doesn't like that, you cant essentially say to the fan "well you should like that, I don't see anything wrong with it".........

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1. The alternative is you have nobody to cheer,

2. Oddly enough some see that as a better option.

3. Why would an SL club want to supply everything though, instead of spreading the cost they would just be taking on more costs, it wouldn't make financial sense to go all the way to your extreme.

1. That's not true though. I look at Rugby League as a great bit of entertainment, and supporting a particular club is a great way to intensify that entertainment. There are several other spectator sports available and sport is but one pastime when you add music, film, theatre, various hobbies etc etc etc. I see people supposedly "passionate" about their club but if the club falls from grace then thousands of fans fall away.

When they stop turning up anymore like the 3,500 Oldham fans they don't end up sitting at home because they don't go to Oldham RLFC any more. Some get in the car and go to the JJB :D

2. As above RL isn't the only option in life. I don't go to Hunslet much at all nowadays, but I do go to around thirty fantastic live Rugby League games a season. I always end up cheering one or the other teams on.

3. I'm not suggesting that Leeds would go the whole hog, I'm just extending the principle of the dual registration thing. If Leeds had no dealings with Hunslet and Hunslet were independent fans may be happy with that. If Hunslet loaned the odd player the odd fan may be unhappy aboout that. If Leeds ran the whole of the Hunslet side dressing their own players up in Hunslet shirts and calling them Hunslet and bussing them down to South Leeds stadium in time for kick off then most fans may not like that.

The point at which this sort of thing turns a fan off is personal. Therefore I'm not in agreement with people suggesting other people should like what they see, I'm in agreement with accepting and understanding peoples feelings and consequent actions when it comes to them deciding something like this is not for them.

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