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flyingking

Super League teams to discuss 2 tier SL with P+R

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At last, a bit of sanity in the discussion.

People are far too quick to dismiss hopes and ambitions using finance as the sole reason.

It's insane to dismiss the sole driver in professional sport........

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1. SL2 with 2 up 2 down to SL1 would get far more than 2k crowds.

2. Chances are youd have a couple of the big Cumbrian teams in there.

3. Not sure why you say everyone would be skint.

4. New investors would find SL2 more attractive than a promotionless NL1

1. second tier RL has never got any better than 2,000 averages.

2. What are you on about? There are no big cumbrian teams??

3. Because they ARE all skint.

4. What "new investors"?? There aren't any for the small championship clubs??

I'm not willing to enter your world of fantasy RL.

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1. I'm not sure why you keep going on about it but I will acknowledge the Fantasy RL thing. This is a fans forum. When we talk about what people would like, then of course it is fantasy stuff. We aren't the ones who need to put a plan in place, or understand the merits, but that doesn't make people's ideas any worse than yours - perhaps you can hold off with the patronising stuff. I'm glad some people on here don't work with me, as some people are so closed minded it's unreal.

2. The fact is that pretty much everything should be put on the table, and then the detail worked through in terms of what is realistically achievable. A 2 division SL is not unachievable. The simple fact is that we could run a game with a Salary Cap of £1m, or add whatever rules in we want, so again, people's thought's shouldn't be driven by the hurdles this would cause. The plan may take 10 years to deliver, but it shouldn't be dismissed based on the fact that some people think we don't have the funding in place.

1. Are you asking me to sit back and accept all this stuff Dave? Why is it "patronising" or "closed minded" to argue that two SL divisions won't work for the very practical reasons I and others set out?? Why is it patronising to point out the money is clearly limited as it stands and the gap is massive? It was most patronising when Padge who works hard on gathering facts and evidence was accused of being a self styled "expert". I'll take the cold hard realities every time.

2. All I want is Gatcliffe to back it up. You say he's likely to know more than me so why should he not just back it up and blow us naysayers away? I have exercised my mind by looking at the realities of "Things put on the table"..... "and then the detail worked through" as you say and I can find a way this can work by giving most of the SKY money to the second division - a radical (but IMHO damaging) plan - so my mind certainly is not closed. There are ten very big clubs and ten small clubs and a gap a mile wide. I simply invite people to open their minds and engage in debate with that. It's what the forum is for - news views discussion and debate.

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It's insane to dismiss the sole driver in professional sport........

It's insane to dismiss ideas based on finances now. These discussions are about the future.

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2. What are you on about? There are no big cumbrian teams??

.

:lol:

Exactly what I thought when I read it.

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It's insane to dismiss ideas based on finances now. These discussions are about the future.

Yes that's fine Dave, if the future can find the finance to turn the championship into a professional league.

But the past shows it is highly unlikely.

What other highly unlikely events can we discuss???

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Yes that's fine Dave, if the future can find the finance to turn the championship into a professional league.

But the past shows it is highly unlikely.

What other highly unlikely events can we discuss???

That's not actually right.

If you were to cut 4 teams from the top league and possibly bring in a new team (Toulouse or similar) then you are only actually looking to turn half of the Championship teams into full time teams. This is a very different thing. I'm still not saying it's possible or even the best thing to do, but you aren't simply trying to turn the CC teams into full time pros.

So when we are discussing this, we are basically looking to turn the strongest CC teams into full-time teams.

BTW, 10/10 is discussed, if we could only get 8 teams (top 3 from the Championship plus Toulouse for example) then this could be a sensible starting point.

A SL2 of:

London

Toulouse

Castleford

Widnes

Salford

Halifax

Featherstone

Sheffield/Leigh

So - funding (as I know you won;t let this go! ;) )

Current top 10 maintain current levels. (£1.4m x 10 = £14m)

Next 8 share the 4 ex-SL club's money (£700k x 8 = £5.6m)

The above is based on current finances. It may be decided that this kind of thing is impossible under these conditions and this could only be set up if a further £5m p.a could be raised - but then that is your plan to work towards.

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That's not actually right.

If you were to cut 4 teams from the top league and possibly bring in a new team (Toulouse or similar) then you are only actually looking to turn half of the Championship teams into full time teams. This is a very different thing. I'm still not saying it's possible or even the best thing to do, but you aren't simply trying to turn the CC teams into full time pros.

So when we are discussing this, we are basically looking to turn the strongest CC teams into full-time teams.

BTW, 10/10 is discussed, if we could only get 8 teams (top 3 from the Championship plus Toulouse for example) then this could be a sensible starting point.

A SL2 of:

London

Toulouse

Castleford

Widnes

Salford

Halifax

Featherstone

Sheffield/Leigh

So - funding (as I know you won;t let this go! ;) )

Current top 10 maintain current levels. (£1.4m x 10 = £14m)

Next 8 share the 4 ex-SL club's money (£700k x 8 = £5.6m)

The above is based on current finances. It may be decided that this kind of thing is impossible under these conditions and this could only be set up if a further £5m p.a could be raised - but then that is your plan to work towards.

These are very interesting thoughts and would make for an exciting competition, something different after all these years and I will let the funding issue go so as not to be tedious.

As an obsessive compulsive pragmatist with conspiracy theory tendencies I think there are many reasons beyond finance why this won't happen. What got my goat was this Gatcliffe guy just throwing stuff like this in the ring with no hint of detail at all. At least Mike Smith was trying to rescue his reputation and Andy Burnham was blatant vote fishing.

Here's my latest fantasy. some RL journalist goes to see Gatcliffe and asks him how this will all work. It's time the RL press stopped just cutting and pasting press releases.

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That's not actually right.

If you were to cut 4 teams from the top league and possibly bring in a new team (Toulouse or similar) then you are only actually looking to turn half of the Championship teams into full time teams. This is a very different thing. I'm still not saying it's possible or even the best thing to do, but you aren't simply trying to turn the CC teams into full time pros.

So when we are discussing this, we are basically looking to turn the strongest CC teams into full-time teams.

BTW, 10/10 is discussed, if we could only get 8 teams (top 3 from the Championship plus Toulouse for example) then this could be a sensible starting point.

A SL2 of:

London

Toulouse

Castleford

Widnes

Salford

Halifax

Featherstone

Sheffield/Leigh

So - funding (as I know you won;t let this go! ;) )

Current top 10 maintain current levels. (£1.4m x 10 = £14m)

Next 8 share the 4 ex-SL club's money (£700k x 8 = £5.6m)

The above is based on current finances. It may be decided that this kind of thing is impossible under these conditions and this could only be set up if a further £5m p.a could be raised - but then that is your plan to work towards.

A conference system set up on geographical divisions as fare as possible would be better tha a SL1, SL2 arrangement in my opinion.

You could have:-

An Eastern division of

Bradford

Castleford

Featherstone

Leeds

Halifax

Huddersfield

Hull

Hull KR

and

A Western division of

Catalans

Leigh

London

Salford

St Helens

Warrington

Widnes

Wigan

As you can see the travelling expenses will be reduced. The Derby matches would be numerous and increase crowds and interest dramatically e.g new Derbies we don't currently have Fev V Cas and Trinity, Hal v Hudd and Bradford, Wigan V Leigh, Salford v Leigh.

Also, with cross conference games thrown in you would still have the clashes of the giants, Sts V Leeds, Hull etc. Bradford v Warrington.

The increase in gate receipts and the reduction in travel expenses might enable the financing of this or, as you say, additional funding might be needed.

This was done in the days of the Yorkshire and Lancashire leagues ( for those who remember them) and the NFL do it due to the huge size of the US and it works brilliantly.

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The problem with that Keighley is that you need 20 teams that are strong enough to play in one comp, and tbh we probably dont even have 14.

Its why i'd go with 2 divisions to allow for different level caps and funding.

If we had 18-20 teams capable of being competitive in one comp then id support geographical conferences.

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The problem with that Keighley is that you need 20 teams that are strong enough to play in one comp, and tbh we probably dont even have 14.

Its why i'd go with 2 divisions to allow for different level caps and funding.

If we had 18-20 teams capable of being competitive in one comp then id support geographical conferences.

I take your point and it's true there would be some weaker teams initially but Fev and Halifax against some lower level SL teams in the Challenge Cup in recent years suggest that they could compete against the bottom half of the structure. Hopefully, in time, the weaker teams would strengthen. The very top is likely to be just that whatever system is used.

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I take your point and it's true there would be some weaker teams initially but Fev and Halifax against some lower level SL teams in the Challenge Cup in recent years suggest that they could compete against the bottom half of the structure. Hopefully, in time, the weaker teams would strengthen. The very top is likely to be just that whatever system is used.

The trouble with this is that it would lower the intensity of the games - the opposite of what is needed in terms of producing international-class players for England.

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The trouble with this is that it would lower the intensity of the games - the opposite of what is needed in terms of producing international-class players for England.

I'd hate to see Leeds versus Fax or Fev as things stand now. These "derbies" would draw fans once but not after the initial slaughter.

To be more inclusive which is what people want which is fine, you have to water down the increased numbers of teams to an even standard.

This means giving far far more SKY money to Leigh, Cas, Halifax and Featherstone than what is given to SL clubs now.

Then these clubs can compete for players with the bigger clubs.

If there's no more money from SKY maybe give these four clubs two £milion a year and cut the rests SKY money by a third.

To stop the rich men just putting more in creating wage inflation (would they want to put more in if other clubs were getting massive handouts?) limit the cap to say £1.2M.

That adds up as near as I can get it.

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if the inventors of motor vehicles based their ideas purely on past experiences we would all be travelling around on rails.

So lets not assume we can't improve things because the past says otherwise.

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I'd hate to see Leeds versus Fax or Fev as things stand now. These "derbies" would draw fans once but not after the initial slaughter.

To be more inclusive which is what people want which is fine, you have to water down the increased numbers of teams to an even standard.

This means giving far far more SKY money to Leigh, Cas, Halifax and Featherstone than what is given to SL clubs now.

Then these clubs can compete for players with the bigger clubs.

If there's no more money from SKY maybe give these four clubs two £milion a year and cut the rests SKY money by a third.

To stop the rich men just putting more in creating wage inflation (would they want to put more in if other clubs were getting massive handouts?) limit the cap to say £1.2M.

That adds up as near as I can get it.

That sounds like an example of revenue sharing. This has been very successful in gthe NFL but I don';t think the top teams over here can see the wood for the trees of self interest. It would be great if it did bhappen.

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if the inventors of motor vehicles based their ideas purely on past experiences we would all be travelling around on rails.

So lets not assume we can't improve things because the past says otherwise.

The main ideas being put forward here - two-tier Super Leagues, geographical conferences - are based upon past experiences. The game has embraced these models in the past and moved away from them.

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That sounds like an example of revenue sharing. This has been very successful in gthe NFL but I don';t think the top teams over here can see the wood for the trees of self interest. It would be great if it did bhappen.

The difference with the NFL is that it has found a very successful sporting and business model that works tremendously well for the market it operates in. With care it can replicate its success in new areas of the US, and quickly bring these new franchises up to the level of the rest.

British/European rugby league hasn't found a template that is anywhere near as successful, or even one that can guarantee survival for our top clubs. Revenue sharing, especially when attempting to bring in weaker, less well funded clubs, will lead to a levelling down in standards.

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The main ideas being put forward here - two-tier Super Leagues, geographical conferences - are based upon past experiences. The game has embraced these models in the past and moved away from them.

I don't recall a 2 tier Super League of full-time teams at any point in the past.

Geographical conferences are not the OP.

We have a limited history of full time professional clubs but already we have as many as we need because that is all we could afford in the past and therefore we will never afford any more.

Cumbria have never had a decent team that could compete at the top so they never will.

Clubs are happy not to be in SL because the past says so etc etc etc

Apparently people are talking on mobile electronic machines now like on Star Trek. I just can't see how because most people couldn't afford a phone in the house in the 1960's.

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The difference with the NFL is that it has found a very successful sporting and business model that works tremendously well for the market it operates in. With care it can replicate its success in new areas of the US, and quickly bring these new franchises up to the level of the rest.

British/European rugby league hasn't found a template that is anywhere near as successful, or even one that can guarantee survival for our top clubs. Revenue sharing, especially when attempting to bring in weaker, less well funded clubs, will lead to a levelling down in standards.

It should raise standards of the lower teams and lower standards for the higher teams resulting in a more competitve league, which should result in higher attendances overall. It's one step back to take two steps forward.

I think they used to have a ticket levy in the past i.e a portion of each ticket sold went to central funding. This resulted in the big teams with the big attendances paying more than the small teams. This was then divvied up amongst all the teams meaning some bonus cash for the lower teams from the bigger teams. It was abolished, of course, on the insistence of the top teams.

The dilemma is that if something is not done soon there are going to be so many failed clubs, the top half dozen will be left playing amongst themselves.

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Apparently people are talking on mobile electronic machines now like on Star Trek. I just can't see how because most people couldn't afford a phone in the house in the 1960's.

Indeed times change.

For phone technology it's advanced 100 fold since the 1960's.

For RL it remains a minority sport with a low participation levels and paying audience figures better than the 1960's given they pay to watch on TV

I'd say we can afford a 12 club SL nowadays which is a great advancement from the 1960's.

Good point there.....

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I don't recall a 2 tier Super League of full-time teams at any point in the past.

Geographical conferences are not the OP.

We have a limited history of full time professional clubs but already we have as many as we need because that is all we could afford in the past and therefore we will never afford any more.

Cumbria have never had a decent team that could compete at the top so they never will.

Clubs are happy not to be in SL because the past says so etc etc etc

Apparently people are talking on mobile electronic machines now like on Star Trek. I just can't see how because most people couldn't afford a phone in the house in the 1960's.

All well and good but there does seem to be a limit to how many people you can fit into a ground that holds 6,000, I think its 6,000.

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All well and good but there does seem to be a limit to how many people you can fit into a ground that holds 6,000, I think its 6,000.

Look if the ground only holds 6,000 then they can go play at Turf Moor Burnley.

Keighley told me.......

There's at least 5,000,000 people within 50 miles of Burnley.

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Look if the ground only holds 6,000 then they can go play at Turf Moor Burnley.

Keighley told me.......

There's at least 5,000,000 people within 50 miles of Burnley.

And all with Cougars hats

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Look if the ground only holds 6,000 then they can go play at Turf Moor Burnley.

Keighley told me.......

There's at least 5,000,000 people within 50 miles of Burnley.

Don t get me involved. I m not in that argument. Don t lie about my posts either. I have NEVER supported the madcap scheme for Keighley to play in Burnley. Metcalf or somebody did propose that but it wasn t me and it s plainly ludicrous.

However, given that Keighley is now officially a part of Bradford and given that Bradford council fixed up Odsal and then gave the lease to the Bulls for a peppercorn rent for a very long time until they were so stupid they sold it, do you think Bradord Council should fund the building of a new stadium in Keighley for the Cougars. Shouldn t they treat all parts of their baliwick equally. If they helped the Bulls, they should help the Cougars What say you, Parksider ? Be brave, support something from a non SL perspective if you can..

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All well and good but there does seem to be a limit to how many people you can fit into a ground that holds 6,000, I think its 6,000.

And clearly they'll never be improved so we may as well add that to the list of what will never happen.

FYI Tetley's stadium is being upgraded with terracing. It doesn't take a sugar daddy to improve your capacity but clearly this isn't happening because it's pointless and the past says so.

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