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Old Frightful

Wales v England, Wrexham. 27/10/2012 K.O. 2.30pm

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I'm also trying to think of sports in which an England v Wales fixture would be anything other than an odds-on victory for England.

So far I've come up with rugby union and Welsh baseball.

Snooker. I'm clutching at straws.

With regard to today's game, we were shown up for what we are ... struggling in key positions.

When you're thirty points down, you stop trying. You think you are trying but you're not.

Well done England.

We'll be back.

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And also maybe answer why other people look on Twitter and see these comments and then come on a forum like this to moan about these people moaning on Twitter? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I was after an explanation of the thought process

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Can somebody please explain this.....

A random person has supported (let's say) Widnes all their life and therefore quite obviously love the game of RL. That person settles down to watch England v Wales on the telly (obviously wouldn't attend), sees the display and immediately thinks "that was rubbish, I know I think I'll go on to Twitter and Facebook and let the whole world know how rubbish our game is. In fact I am going to slag off next years RL World Cup at the same time"

What on earth is the though process that makes someone do that?

Maybe Chris Irvine could help me answer?

Indeed. Mystifying.

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Thoroughly enjoyed it, although it was rather cold!! Most of the crowd were Welsh and seemed to enjoy it, and recognised that England were simply a cut above. Those I spoke to, also recognised that Wales will get better the more they play against good opposition.

Impressed with Myler & Sinfield. Best half-back combination we've had for England/GB for years, almost every try was set up by a pass from one or the other. Be good to see them go again next week against the French.

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On a minor point, it was good to hear a proper Welshman being interviewed after the game. (Ben Flower) rather than someone from Leeds.

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No doubt england stuggle for decent matches when roos and kiwis don't tour. Png seem on up unlucky not to beat pm 13 a lions tour would have created good crowds and games. Given England next 2 games v france are at home I see a cakewalk.

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No doubt england stuggle for decent matches when roos and kiwis don't tour. Png seem on up unlucky not to beat pm 13 a lions tour would have created good crowds and games. Given England next 2 games v france are at home I see a cakewalk.

Even if we pretended a GB team existed, would PNG realistically provide any sterner opposition? And would it be worth the travel/expense?

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Disappointed with the sloppy defending today after the decent effort shown over in France, but the two tries made the trip up and back worthwhile, there is a clear gulf in class between England,Aus & NZ in International RL but then we all knew that, today's game wasn't going to tell us anything different in that respect, but its games like this testing yourself against the best that we need if we are to close that gap and improve the competitiveness and profile of International Rugby League. Losing the likes of Briers,Watson and Beazer amongst others was going to be a loss that we couldn't adequately fill this year.

Once again we can trumpet the emergence of more homegrown locally produced Welsh Rugby League players, but for now we'll have to deal with the teething problems clearly.

Wales v England in Baseball - Wales hammer England every year, i have also seen the Welsh Aussie Rules side beat their English counterparts and a Welsh Schoolboys side win in Carmarthen.

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On a minor point, it was good to hear a proper Welshman being interviewed after the game. (Ben Flower) rather than someone from Leeds.

He also made a very significant point which probably got lost since he was clearly a little downbeat after the game.

I'm paraphrasing what he said but he made the point that it was important that players continued to come through the system that was developing.

We need to ignore the moaners, stick to an international programme, support the two semi pro clubs and encourage partnerships like Wigan have established.

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Disappointed with the sloppy defending today after the decent effort shown over in France, but the two tries made the trip up and back worthwhile, there is a clear gulf in class between England,Aus & NZ in International RL but then we all knew that, today's game wasn't going to tell us anything different in that respect, but its games like this testing yourself against the best that we need if we are to close that gap and improve the competitiveness and profile of International Rugby League. Losing the likes of Briers,Watson and Beazer amongst others was going to be a loss that we couldn't adequately fill this year.

Once again we can trumpet the emergence of more homegrown locally produced Welsh Rugby League players, but for now we'll have to deal with the teething problems clearly.

Wales v England in Baseball - Wales hammer England every year, i have also seen the Welsh Aussie Rules side beat their English counterparts and a Welsh Schoolboys side win in Carmarthen.

Agree totally. People in Wales have short memories. I remember the Welsh RU team getting whacked by 96 in South Africa. Nobody goes on about that anymore. These things happen and are quickly forgotten.

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Yaaay, we stuffed the Taffies today. What a performance, world cup winners in waiting. Total and utter anihilation by England. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Super League is the best thing since sliced bread and is delivering wonderful things for the game. Also, let us be in absolutely no doubt that Steve MacNamara is the saviour of England RL and the 2013 MBE's are already being pencilled in.

[Delia Smith Mode on] "Australia - where are you ? WHERE ARE YOU ? Lets be having you ! We're going to smash you" [Delia Smith Mode Off]

Just think, if we only play half as well as we did today we'll put 40 on the Aussies. Stands to reason doesn't it ?

In next weeks issue - Kells "A" team apologise for only beating Wales by 20 points, Welsh fans tell us about how they have some promising youngsters and in 3 years time they'll give Kells "A" a game, and some apologists bemoan the fact that some people tell the blunt truth on the internet that they can't admit to.

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Yaaay, we stuffed the Taffies today. What a performance, world cup winners in waiting. Total and utter anihilation by England. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Super League is the best thing since sliced bread and is delivering wonderful things for the game. Also, let us be in absolutely no doubt that Steve MacNamara is the saviour of England RL and the 2013 MBE's are already being pencilled in.

[Delia Smith Mode on] "Australia - where are you ? WHERE ARE YOU ? Lets be having you ! We're going to smash you" [Delia Smith Mode Off]

Just think, if we only play half as well as we did today we'll put 40 on the Aussies. Stands to reason doesn't it ?

In next weeks issue - Kells "A" team apologise for only beating Wales by 20 points, Welsh fans tell us about how they have some promising youngsters and in 3 years time they'll give Kells "A" a game, and some apologists bemoan the fact that some people tell the blunt truth on the internet that they can't admit to.

Wtf

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Depressing. I really wished I enjoyed watching other sports. I've tried, I just can't do it.

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Yaaay, we stuffed the Taffies today. What a performance, world cup winners in waiting. Total and utter anihilation by England. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Super League is the best thing since sliced bread and is delivering wonderful things for the game. Also, let us be in absolutely no doubt that Steve MacNamara is the saviour of England RL and the 2013 MBE's are already being pencilled in.

[Delia Smith Mode on] "Australia - where are you ? WHERE ARE YOU ? Lets be having you ! We're going to smash you" [Delia Smith Mode Off]

Just think, if we only play half as well as we did today we'll put 40 on the Aussies. Stands to reason doesn't it ?

In next weeks issue - Kells "A" team apologise for only beating Wales by 20 points, Welsh fans tell us about how they have some promising youngsters and in 3 years time they'll give Kells "A" a game, and some apologists bemoan the fact that some people tell the blunt truth on the internet that they can't admit to.

What a stupid post. In 3 Years time Wales could have Evans, Kear, Lloyd, White, Pugsley, Channing, Dudson, Flower, Kopzack all being top class established SL players. A lot of them are just kids trying to break into SL - give them a chance FFS.

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[Delia Smith Mode on] "Australia - where are you ? WHERE ARE YOU ? Lets be having you ! We're going to smash you" [Delia Smith Mode Off]

They can't be arsed to play us, nor can NZ. Strange really as we hear they can put out 3 or 4 top class sides to beat us.

Which makes it the fault of the RFL, natch.

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What a stupid post. In 3 Years time Wales could have Evans, Kear, Lloyd, White, Pugsley, Channing, Dudson, Flower, Kopzack all being top class established SL players. A lot of them are just kids trying to break into SL - give them a chance FFS.

I was being sarcastic. But.......If the players you mention were English then how many of them do you reckon would stand a chance of making the England team ?

Look, as I said on the France v Wales thread last week, I'm not having a go at the Welsh lads, they're a team of triers who play with a bit of pride. But why do people try to build them up to be something they're not ? There's a massive difference between being a team representing a country and being and international class team.

I'm a Cumbrian and I guarantee you I could pick a Cumbria team that would comfortably see off Wales (and we haven't got a SL club either). But i wouldn't claim Cumbria to be a powerhouse of the game worthy of any kind of status, even if we have got some 'promising players'. So what's the point of today's game ? What positive did either team get from it ?

International RL won't progress with such one-sided mismatches. Wales shouldn't give up, of course they shouldn't, but they should be playing at the right level of competition and England isn't it. They are being used as sacrificial lambs to the slaughter, and I wouldn't mind if that gave England a chance in 2013. But neither team is any further forward after today.

Some people will no doubt read what they want to read and see my comments as anti-Wales or whatever, but if you look closer you will see that I am saying that Wales should not be put into the situation that we had today. They will progress and they will develop, but not by playing matches against much superior opposition. The international game should be structured, divisionalised even, and teams like Wales, PNG, France. Samoa etc should fight for the right to test themselves against the Big 3 every couple of years. Again, this is not a criticism of where Wales are - its a criticism of a system that forces them to play one-sided games in the supposed cause of international RL. If today is international RL then its no surprise that nobody turns up to watch it anymore. Wales weren't bad, they tried their best and worked their butts off, but it isn't enough at this level. I felt sorry for them having to go through this.

Call me negative, I don't care anymore, but the sad irony is that those of you who think rubbish like today is positive for the international game are the ones who will hold this game and the countries like Wales back. Lets have the soundbites about playing against better players makes you a better player. It doesn't. Nobody learns anything from an 80-12 scoreline. Accept it and you'll always get it. And we'll have threads like this next year, the year after that and the year after that......

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Well I enjoyed the game and was delighted to be able to watch it on the BBC - who covered it ok actually, albeit less crisply than Sky.

England had the most fluid attack they have had under McNamara and Sinfield was super keen to stand up as the leader. Watkins is all class, and Ellis looked in the mood to be a pack leader. Not all that team will be in the squad next year, but they looked the business today regardless of how out-gunned the opposition were.

For what it was, I thought it was a most enjoyable afternoon's entertainment and pretty encouraging as an England fan too. Then again, I do quite like Rugby League.

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I've said it time and time again, and perhaps it's against the 'morals' of the game but what I call the '55 minute syndrone' is the problem:

2009 FN - 55th minute: France 4-24 Australia - Final Score: France 4-42 Australia

2009 FN - 55th minute: France 12-22 New Zealand - Final Score: France 12-62 New Zealand

2009 FN - 55th minute: England 16-18 Australia - Final Score: England 16-46 Australia

2009 AI - 55th minute: Wales 12-20 England - Final Score: Wales 12-48 England

2009 EC - 55th minute: Wales 20-12 Ireland - Final Score: Wales 42-12 Ireland

2008 AI - 55th minute: England 36-0 Wales - Final Score: England 74-0 Wales

2011 FN - 55th minute: Wales 14-26 Australia - Final Score: Wales 14-56 Australia

2008 WC - 55th minute: New Zealand 22-6 PNG - Final Score: New Zealand 48-6 PNG

2008 WC - 55th minute: Australia 24-4 England. Final Score: Australia 52-4 England

These are some examples that I remember, particularly the French v NZ one because man the French were like 12-10 up and they absolutely capitulated.

Anyway what I'm saying is you only see these types of scores in International RL and Challenge Cup matches. You don't get them in SL and NRL. And surprise surprise internationals and Challenge Cup matches are the two games that nobody turns up to see. Why: because people will always want a close game.

Rugby Union doesn't seem to have this problem as much (imo) because of the way it's played, but hey the way Rugby League is you really notice when Part Timers are playing Full Timers and it isn't in the first 55 minutes, it's in the last 25 minutes.

Perhaps this is against the morals of the game, but seeing as I would very much like to have close games for the World Cup, is it not time we looked a few more rule changes to even out P.timers v F.timers. Perhaps offering more Interchanges pr even an extra Sub (for both teams of course!)?? To help the teams out that have players with less stamina...

Todays: 55m: Wales 12-38 England. FT: Wales 12-80 England.

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Call me negative, I don't care anymore, but the sad irony is that those of you who think rubbish like today is positive for the international game are the ones who will hold this game and the countries like Wales back. Lets have the soundbites about playing against better players makes you a better player. It doesn't. Nobody learns anything from an 80-12 scoreline. Accept it and you'll always get it. And we'll have threads like this next year, the year after that and the year after that......

So where's your solution? Is the alternative not playing at all? Bring back a pretend GB team?

It doesn't seem to matter what the RFL try, people like you will always find a reason to rubbish it. I could genuinely understand this if in the past GB had played every game under mass hysteria with locked doors, but they didn't. Apart from a bit of a surge in the late 80's/early 90's crowds were abysmal internationally- look at the 'crowd' for the 1972 WC final under the sacred GB...now that is ###### embarrassing, and with such legendary players too. The KIWI tour of 1971 that attracted a total of about 8-10K spectators...in total!! Jesus.

The GB/Aus series of 2003 was a 3-0 series win to the Aussies. But every game went to the wire and could have gone either way with each game being close, did this result in a load of positive 'bloody good series that' type analysis? Did it balls. It was yet more evidence that we should give up because we will never beat them.

Well check this, it's not being 'realistic'. It's moaning.

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Arguably a better England team sat on the sidelines today.

Tomkins

Briscoe

Atkins

Reed

Broughton

Widdop

Brough

Crabtree

Roby

Graham

Westwood

S Burgess

Harrison

Ratchford/Lomax

Farrell

Carvell

L Burgess

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Think you forgot a certain Mr Chase. Whether you like it or not he's in Macarena's plans. If fit he will be in the squad next year.

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I was being sarcastic. But.......If the players you mention were English then how many of them do you reckon would stand a chance of making the England team ?

Look, as I said on the France v Wales thread last week, I'm not having a go at the Welsh lads, they're a team of triers who play with a bit of pride. But why do people try to build them up to be something they're not ? There's a massive difference between being a team representing a country and being and international class team.

I'm a Cumbrian and I guarantee you I could pick a Cumbria team that would comfortably see off Wales (and we haven't got a SL club either). But i wouldn't claim Cumbria to be a powerhouse of the game worthy of any kind of status, even if we have got some 'promising players'. So what's the point of today's game ? What positive did either team get from it ?

International RL won't progress with such one-sided mismatches. Wales shouldn't give up, of course they shouldn't, but they should be playing at the right level of competition and England isn't it. They are being used as sacrificial lambs to the slaughter, and I wouldn't mind if that gave England a chance in 2013. But neither team is any further forward after today.

Some people will no doubt read what they want to read and see my comments as anti-Wales or whatever, but if you look closer you will see that I am saying that Wales should not be put into the situation that we had today. They will progress and they will develop, but not by playing matches against much superior opposition. The international game should be structured, divisionalised even, and teams like Wales, PNG, France. Samoa etc should fight for the right to test themselves against the Big 3 every couple of years. Again, this is not a criticism of where Wales are - its a criticism of a system that forces them to play one-sided games in the supposed cause of international RL. If today is international RL then its no surprise that nobody turns up to watch it anymore. Wales weren't bad, they tried their best and worked their butts off, but it isn't enough at this level. I felt sorry for them having to go through this.

Call me negative, I don't care anymore, but the sad irony is that those of you who think rubbish like today is positive for the international game are the ones who will hold this game and the countries like Wales back. Lets have the soundbites about playing against better players makes you a better player. It doesn't. Nobody learns anything from an 80-12 scoreline. Accept it and you'll always get it. And we'll have threads like this next year, the year after that and the year after that......

There are some strange people on here!!

For those of us who actually enjoy rugby league and want to watch competitive, top level international league, then we need to continue the way we are going. The international game has grown significantly since the 2000 World Cup and still has lots of room for future growth bring more, players, money and publicity to the game, as well as providing lots of enjoyable moments for those of us who like rugby league, and I guess lots of moments for those who like to moan about rugby league.

The facts are that Australia & NZ are top of the pile, England just behind and then a long way behind come the Pacific Nations, France & Wales, and then behind them come the rest. When the World Cup comes around things alter slightly, as a number of players who don't usually want to play international rugby, put their hand up for various heritage countries(eg Shaun Berrigan in the frame for Italy in 2013).

England need to help France & Wales be more competitive at international level. They are the best hopes in the northern hemisphere, but those two nations need to play quality opposition if they are to improve and that means England.

If you actually go to some of these games and talk to people, you don't hear the French or Welsh fans saying they don't want to play England, that they would rather play Scotland or Ireland. You don't hear the players saying that they would rather play against teams dominated by championship players, rather than the elite of the super league.

Of the two squads listed in yesterday's programme, 18/25 for Wales were 24 or younger, for England it was 12/25. The Welsh 'old hands' included the likes of Christian Roets & Owain Brown (NW Crusaders), Jordan James (Salford) and Neil Budworth (Mackay Cutters & Ex London). The English 'old hands' included Gareth Ellis, Adrian Morley, Kevin Sinfield, Rob Burrow and Sean O'loughlin.

There is no comparison. By the time the 2017 World Cup comes around, most of the Welsh squad will still be younger than those 5 English players, but they'll have another 5 years of experience under their belt, and there will have been some more come through by then.

The view of the Aussies 10 years or so ago was that England/GB were so far behind that it wasn't worth bothering with. Fortunately Richard Lewis stuck to his guns and conjured up one way or another for us to play them. We've improved since then, maybe not enough - we'll see next November.

The present international scene is far from ideal but it's an awful lot better than it was in 2000, and with the constraints there are in rugby league, it's probably the best we can get at the moment. A successful World Cup next year is the next big opportunity to change the landscape in a significant way.

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There are some strange people on here!!

For those of us who actually enjoy rugby league and want to watch competitive, top level international league, then we need to continue the way we are going. The international game has grown significantly since the 2000 World Cup and still has lots of room for future growth bring more, players, money and publicity to the game, as well as providing lots of enjoyable moments for those of us who like rugby league, and I guess lots of moments for those who like to moan about rugby league.

The facts are that Australia & NZ are top of the pile, England just behind and then a long way behind come the Pacific Nations, France & Wales, and then behind them come the rest. When the World Cup comes around things alter slightly, as a number of players who don't usually want to play international rugby, put their hand up for various heritage countries(eg Shaun Berrigan in the frame for Italy in 2013).

England need to help France & Wales be more competitive at international level. They are the best hopes in the northern hemisphere, but those two nations need to play quality opposition if they are to improve and that means England.

If you actually go to some of these games and talk to people, you don't hear the French or Welsh fans saying they don't want to play England, that they would rather play Scotland or Ireland. You don't hear the players saying that they would rather play against teams dominated by championship players, rather than the elite of the super league.

Of the two squads listed in yesterday's programme, 18/25 for Wales were 24 or younger, for England it was 12/25. The Welsh 'old hands' included the likes of Christian Roets & Owain Brown (NW Crusaders), Jordan James (Salford) and Neil Budworth (Mackay Cutters & Ex London). The English 'old hands' included Gareth Ellis, Adrian Morley, Kevin Sinfield, Rob Burrow and Sean O'loughlin.

There is no comparison. By the time the 2017 World Cup comes around, most of the Welsh squad will still be younger than those 5 English players, but they'll have another 5 years of experience under their belt, and there will have been some more come through by then.

The view of the Aussies 10 years or so ago was that England/GB were so far behind that it wasn't worth bothering with. Fortunately Richard Lewis stuck to his guns and conjured up one way or another for us to play them. We've improved since then, maybe not enough - we'll see next November.

The present international scene is far from ideal but it's an awful lot better than it was in 2000, and with the constraints there are in rugby league, it's probably the best we can get at the moment. A successful World Cup next year is the next big opportunity to change the landscape in a significant way.

Excellent post.

The problem is there's no professional Welsh teams, yet many delighted at Crusaders demise.

At least the link ups between scorpions and crusaders with SL clubs give hope.

I was astounded to see a live "home international" on terrestrial TV. surely that is a tremendous achievement for the game.

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