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gingerjon

They fought and died for our freedom

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True, there are some notable exceptions.

no

what you are saying is the exception.

what you are saying has no place in left/liberal thinking.

What you are describing is the thinking of ignorant individuals who have failed to follow their ideas through.

There are quite a few people on this forum who's thinking covers the left/liberal spectrum. I'm willing to bet that not one of them think the way you say.

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It seems to me that a lot of people think free speech is basically the right to say whatever you want without being challenged on it and then they see argument against them as some kind of affront to their basic human rights.

Some people may interpret it that way. However, I don't.

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The same applies applies on the right. Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.

There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.

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There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.

Yes, they're a horrible bunch.

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The trouble with the liberal left and their tradition of "challenging ideas" that they don't like is that they only do this to white conservatives or the white far-right. Other extremists are tolerated on the grounds of "it's their culture" (unless they are Jewish).

The trouble is that you make the mistake of believing your own stereotypes.

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There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.

Who?

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You can be liberal (i.e. supporting social liberties such as democracy, free speech, personal choice) whilst being left wing economically (government ownership of means of production, services etc.). You can also have those left wing economic policies and be totalitarian (no democracy, no freedom of speech etc.) It's easier to be the second of these if you are in power....

The same applies applies on the right. Right wing libertarians in the USA have a very interesting mix of policies that are utterly unacceptable to the Christian right and Republicans in general and they poll at less than 1%.

While there are people who will quite happily describe themselves as "liberal- left" (eg a Lib-Dem group), the description is often used as an insult by some on the right. I believe it's an attempt to ultilise the pejorative meaning the word "liberal" has in the States, but is quite meaningless over here.

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Very interesting. I haven't worn a poppy in years although I buy at least one every year. I think I prefer the Scottish groups take on things to the RBL's.

On twitter (so the caveat is right there) it's being said that it was the EDL (or people linked to the EDL) who complained to Kent Police about the poppy burning photo.

Interestingly, the presence at Remembrance services of the EDL, BNP, NF, or any other fringe neo-Nazi or far-right grouping, would be considered as grossly offensive by the organisers. I believe they have been kept away from such commemorations in the past; quite fitting given the circumstances.

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I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.

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I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.

They wear the poppy in Canada, I believe.

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I wore a poppy this year in USA,and answered the questions about the wearing of poppy's in Britain.Over in USA they have memorial day in early summer and Veterans day on 11-11,and its doesn't seem to have the solemnity we have in Britain.

And yet it is a tradition started in the USA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_poppy

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no

what you are saying is the exception.

what you are saying has no place in left/liberal thinking.

What you are describing is the thinking of ignorant individuals who have failed to follow their ideas through.

There are quite a few people on this forum who's thinking covers the left/liberal spectrum. I'm willing to bet that not one of them think the way you say.

A custom more honoured in breech, I'm afraid.

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The trouble is that you make the mistake of believing your own stereotypes.

Who doesn't?

They are, after all, my labels.

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A custom more honoured in breech, I'm afraid.

I haven't a clue what you are talking about: the term you use seems meaningless.

Either what you say is true or it isn't.

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I haven't a clue what you are talking about: the term you use seems meaningless.

Either what you say is true or it isn't.

Meaningless to you not meaningless to others.

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Meaningless to you not meaningless to others.

That's what I said

I wasn't speaking on behalf of 'others'

Where do you get the idea that 'culture' excuses normally intolerable behaviour being a part of 'left/liberal' thought and discourse?

The notion is alien and repulsive to me and I have only come across it amongst misguided public servants when they deal with situations badly.

To brand an entire, albeit extremely loosely defined school of thought in this way is as offensive as it is silly and prejudiced

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I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.

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I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.

How on earth does that relate to people of 'left/liberal' thinking people supposedly excusing inappropriate behaviour on the basis of 'culture' even if it were true. As it happens, whether you or I like it or not, Adams is now a highly placed mainstream politician, democratically elected. It's not surprising he contributes to the mainstream media.

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I am talking about how people behave in practice not what might be said in books. In practice those who have an obsession with the extremism of the BNP / EDL often turn a blind eye to other extremist groups. The Sinn Fein / IRA are a case in point, I've seen the Guardian give Gerry Adams a chance to write his opinion pieces.

Freedom of speech applies to people you don't like as well as those you do. That's the important thing about it. If the BNP/ EDL had anyone capable of stringing two words together he'd probably get invited to write a piece for the Guardian as well.

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So when does Nick Griffen get his column?

It's clear that a terrorist whose group engaged in ethnic cleansing and drug dealing as well as deliberately targetting of civilians is okay just as long as he comes from a group deemed "cultural" by the Guardian.

I hardly imagine that if the IRA's victims had largely been non-white, they would be letting him write opinion pieces.

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Freedom of speech applies to people you don't like as well as those you do. That's the important thing about it. If the BNP/ EDL had anyone capable of stringing two words together he'd probably get invited to write a piece for the Guardian as well.

Freedom of speech means that you don't ban An Phoblacht, it doesn't mean that you give terrorists a platform. And no the Guardian will not be giving the BNP / EDL any column width regardless of how well educated and stylish the writing might be. It doesn't fit their world view.

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That would be the same Nick Griffin that was on Question Time?

The one who is interviewed with monotonous regularity by those right wing extremists the BBC.

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There is a longstanding right wing libertarian tradition in this country too.

at the risk of derailing the thread, the original Libertarians were left wingers opposed to what they saw as the authoritarian tendencies in Marxism a tendency which became more pronounced during the Leninist era.

See my signature below

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Freedom of speech means that you don't ban An Phoblacht, it doesn't mean that you give terrorists a platform. And no the Guardian will not be giving the BNP / EDL any column width regardless of how well educated and stylish the writing might be. It doesn't fit their world view.

So the Guardian is the only place freedom of speech can be expressed then is it?

What about Richard Littlejohn and John Gaunt's deranged ramblings? If they aren't in the Guardian does that count as evidence of Freedom of Speech being crushed by the liberal intelligentsia?

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So when does Nick Griffen get his column?

It's clear that a terrorist whose group engaged in ethnic cleansing and drug dealing as well as deliberately targetting of civilians is okay just as long as he comes from a group deemed "cultural" by the Guardian.

I hardly imagine that if the IRA's victims had largely been non-white, they would be letting him write opinion pieces.

Perhaps when he's a senior government figure democratically elected

griffin gets plenty of media exposure anyway

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