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marklaspalmas

SL & Championship link ups.

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When you have your "BIG TEAM" competition of 8 British clubs,

You might think your dream of a big time SL and sod the rest is nirvana for the game,

If you start your reply by typing absolute garbage and making it an attack on me rather than discussing the reality then alas we can go no further.

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So if one big SL club exists in the Calder area at some time in the future are you saying that the other two will eventually be left with next to no fans in say 10 or 20 years time? With respect, all three clubs in the Wakefield area have strong fan bases, Fev for instance increased their attendances last season by 38% despite not being in SL. No indication of any sort of defection to either of the SL clubs there then. So when do you reckon the drift towards the bigger clubs might take a grip? SL is approaching its 18th season. Comparing the rest with what's happened to Hunslet is a mistake.

Well it may suit your argument to say what happened to Bramley and Hunslet in Leeds cannot happen in the Wakefield area.

When I started watching RL in Leeds Leeds were big and won trophies, none of the Wakey three win anything so the conditions are not yet there to see one club dominate the other two for a sustained period of time. However if ever one of the clubs ends up being a far bigger attraction then that process may begin. It all depends on one of these three loss making clubs starting to turn in a profit and starting to be able to compete with the big clubs. There's no sign of Newmarket yet as Kenny points out.

Despite not being in the first division Hunslet increased their 267 crowd against Huyton in 1972/3 to 4,000 in 1973/4 how many percent is that and what did it matter when eventually Leeds total domination saw us end up at 150 fans a couple of years back.

Around 1974 Bramley had a strong base of 1,500 fans at matches 38 years on they are gone.

It's great you can draw 2,000 fans Terry going forwards, but when you went backwards the crowds dropped to 800 IIRC, you just cannot dismiss the correlation between success and failure and fanbases, how about Bradford Northern 1947 to 1964.

How about HKR's demise to 1,000 fans in the second division. If Hudgell had not come along where would that "strong fan base" of the early 1980's be now? Without success fans disappear very quickly leaving clubs needing rescuing. Eventually nobody wants to rescue them like Bramley, or rescue comes in the form of playing in CC1 before a few hundred fans until one has to tie up with an SL club like Hunslet has with Leeds "for survival".

Had either of the "Rovers" not been rescued and revived they could have been the ones doing the link ups with Hull and Wakefield.

It's not a mistake to reflect on what's happened in Leeds, exactly the same conditions can come about anywhere and have done, only today the situation is accentuated as the have's and have not's are poles apart.

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I may be reading these arrangements wrong but isn't the integrity of the Championship competition being protected by limiting the number of SL potential dual registered / loan players who can be included in the match day 17 to 5?

Those Championship sides that do not have a formal arrangement cannot have dual registered players but can still have up to 5 loan players from SL or other CC clubs in their matchday 17. That seems to provide a sort of 'levelish ' playing field.

What I haven't got my head around yet is who is actually paying these players for their matchday efforts . Presumably that is a matter of negotiation between the individual and clubs concerned. Do the CC clubs pay enough for it ever to become a Salary Cap issue for them ?

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If you start your reply by typing absolute garbage and making it an attack on me rather than discussing the reality then alas we can go no further.

Touchy, touchy. Any perceived attack on you is verboten but you can throw around phrases like "absolute garbage" with impunity.

So lets take the personal "you" out of the discussion and phrase it like this to make the same point

" When SL has reduced it's numbers to the much discussed 10 teams and when two of those teams are in France and one is in London with no fans, then maybe those in charge think it will be nirvana for the game but I don't think so." then the rest of my post follows on as typed,perceived garbage or not.

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Well it may suit your argument to say what happened to Bramley and Hunslet in Leeds cannot happen in the Wakefield area.

When I started watching RL in Leeds Leeds were big and won trophies, none of the Wakey three win anything so the conditions are not yet there to see one club dominate the other two for a sustained period of time. However if ever one of the clubs ends up being a far bigger attraction then that process may begin. It all depends on one of these three loss making clubs starting to turn in a profit and starting to be able to compete with the big clubs. There's no sign of Newmarket yet as Kenny points out.

Despite not being in the first division Hunslet increased their 267 crowd against Huyton in 1972/3 to 4,000 in 1973/4 how many percent is that and what did it matter when eventually Leeds total domination saw us end up at 150 fans a couple of years back.

Around 1974 Bramley had a strong base of 1,500 fans at matches 38 years on they are gone.

It's great you can draw 2,000 fans Terry going forwards, but when you went backwards the crowds dropped to 800 IIRC, you just cannot dismiss the correlation between success and failure and fanbases, how about Bradford Northern 1947 to 1964.

How about HKR's demise to 1,000 fans in the second division. If Hudgell had not come along where would that "strong fan base" of the early 1980's be now? Without success fans disappear very quickly leaving clubs needing rescuing. Eventually nobody wants to rescue them like Bramley, or rescue comes in the form of playing in CC1 before a few hundred fans until one has to tie up with an SL club like Hunslet has with Leeds "for survival".

Had either of the "Rovers" not been rescued and revived they could have been the ones doing the link ups with Hull and Wakefield.

It's not a mistake to reflect on what's happened in Leeds, exactly the same conditions can come about anywhere and have done, only today the situation is accentuated as the have's and have not's are poles apart.

Two points

1. Whilst you can use the Leeds city example for the decline scenario when one team dominates, it must be qualified. Hunslet were unique in that their very town/suburb was practically destroyed and their ground was disposed of in some kind of surreptitious fashion Bramley also had a decent little ground with a "only for sports" clause in the deed of gift and that was circumvented and the ground disposed of. These circumstances did not exist in the Calder area.

2. You are totally correct that there is a direct correlation between success and attendances.

Even more reason therefore to not ring fence SL. The stymied CC clubs should reap the reward of their succeses on the field with the increased crowds they would get once promoted or granted a licence.

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So lets take the personal "you" out of the discussion and phrase it like this to make the same point

" When SL has reduced it's numbers to the much discussed 10 teams and when two of those teams are in France and one is in London with no fans, then maybe those in charge think it will be nirvana for the game but I don't think so."

That's a lot better and far more civil, and a better platform for a debate.

However it's 12 teams that is the most discussed situation not 10

And your post actually said 8 British teams.

So what is your point based on?

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Two points

1. Hunslet were unique in that their very town/suburb was practically destroyed and their ground was disposed. Bramley also had a decent little ground with a "only for sports" clause in the deed of gift and that was circumvented and the ground disposed of. These circumstances did not exist in the Calder area.

2. You are totally correct that there is a direct correlation between success and attendances.

3 Even more reason therefore to not ring fence SL. The stymied CC clubs should reap the reward of their succeses on the field with the increased crowds they would get once promoted or granted a licence.

1. The grounds were lost due to the demise of these clubs. The demise of these clubs came first. Your point is irrelevent.

2. Glad we agree

3. More dreams and fantasies

Open your eyes, look it up and see what "increased crowds" "CC Clubs" "reaped from success on the field" "Once promoted or granted a licence".

1999 Wakefield promoted - reaped 4250 crowds

2003 Fartown promoted - reaped 4722 crowds

2004 salford promoted - reaped 3994 crowds

2005 leigh promoted - reaped 4750 crowds

2006 HKR promoted - reaped 7160 crowds

2007 Cas promoted reaped 7501 crowds

2012 Widnes - license - reaped 5.800 crowds

Five of these clubs ran into serious financial difficulties as would the other two without millionaires at the helm.

Common denominator for every man jack of them. NOT enough fans to survive Superleague.

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What I can't square is that the SL clubs with all the finances at their disposal, commercial acumen, hard-nosed businessmen, plus the countries best coaches, plus antipodean coaches and methods, plus youth, academy and player development pathways, plus scouting networks and link-ups with places outside the heartlands, plus all the other aspects of RL that are involved with being at the pinnacle of the game in this country - why the hell could they only organise a second team/academy structure that was deemed to be not fit for purpose??

Very good point shaun.

And yet people keep on justifying these "links" by stating that the non SL clubs will benefit from the SL clubs business acumen and apparent superior organisational expertise........?

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Well it may suit your argument to say what happened to Bramley and Hunslet in Leeds cannot happen in the Wakefield area.

When I started watching RL in Leeds Leeds were big and won trophies, none of the Wakey three win anything so the conditions are not yet there to see one club dominate the other two for a sustained period of time. However if ever one of the clubs ends up being a far bigger attraction then that process may begin. It all depends on one of these three loss making clubs starting to turn in a profit and starting to be able to compete with the big clubs. There's no sign of Newmarket yet as Kenny points out.

Despite not being in the first division Hunslet increased their 267 crowd against Huyton in 1972/3 to 4,000 in 1973/4 how many percent is that and what did it matter when eventually Leeds total domination saw us end up at 150 fans a couple of years back.

Around 1974 Bramley had a strong base of 1,500 fans at matches 38 years on they are gone.

It's great you can draw 2,000 fans Terry going forwards, but when you went backwards the crowds dropped to 800 IIRC, you just cannot dismiss the correlation between success and failure and fanbases, how about Bradford Northern 1947 to 1964.

How about HKR's demise to 1,000 fans in the second division. If Hudgell had not come along where would that "strong fan base" of the early 1980's be now? Without success fans disappear very quickly leaving clubs needing rescuing. Eventually nobody wants to rescue them like Bramley, or rescue comes in the form of playing in CC1 before a few hundred fans until one has to tie up with an SL club like Hunslet has with Leeds "for survival".

Had either of the "Rovers" not been rescued and revived they could have been the ones doing the link ups with Hull and Wakefield.

It's not a mistake to reflect on what's happened in Leeds, exactly the same conditions can come about anywhere and have done, only today the situation is accentuated as the have's and have not's are poles apart.

I take your points Parky and of course a certain amount of success ensures a steady crowd. I can't, however see the day when any of the three clubs from the rhubarb triangle would ever suffer the demise of either Hunslet or Bramley. By the way, when did Rovers average crowds of 800? Not during my lifetime.

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Yeah, I left out all the imaginary ones. Sorry.

Joint lottery Mark? A business initiative by Leeds which obviously benefits them as well as Rovers if not more so hence the annual match day sponsorship. Hardly a benevolent gesture as some would like to argue. As you say, it's a bit different to the rather more serious subject of the topic at hand. It's just a pity that honest opinions can't be aired on here without targeted aggression and ill mannered retort.

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By the way, when did Rovers average crowds of 800? Not during my lifetime.

correct:

more in the region of 3,000 during a championship winning season, 2,600 in a challenge cup winning season with leavening of relegation dogfights.

as a long standing club offivcial in several roles, do you think Rovers compensated local amateur clubs equitably when they signed players such as Paul Newlove for which they recieved a world record transfer fee?

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Joint lottery Mark? A business initiative by Leeds which obviously benefits them as well as Rovers if not more so hence the annual match day sponsorship. Hardly a benevolent gesture as some would like to argue. As you say, it's a bit different to the rather more serious subject of the topic at hand. It's just a pity that honest opinions can't be aired on here without targeted aggression and ill mannered retort.

of course it benefits them. It benefits Rovers also-arguably more otherwise Rovers wouldn't have signed up to it surely. Rhinos sponsor gamnes several times per season. They don't have to do it. Ill mannered retort by that I presume you mean calling long serving club servants a tird in a swimming pool or a 'clown' for expressing the wrong views. Presumablky since you have never expressed any objection to these and other insults to someone who has been loyal to Rovers and you personally that you agree with them. Double standards again-is it a tradition?

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Am I having a bad dream or is this for real?

Just dont reply to him Terry he is the sole reason people have stopped using this forum in droves, over 36000 post of utter rubbish, is why people use facebook, we will be safe from him on there he will never use it. Because he wont be saved by moderators on there and people will tell him what he is and the tird and the Clown will be tame compared. Its a shame 1 man can ruin peoples enjoyment but there you have it and all the time with the picture of an x Rovers great, sadly the moderators have allowed him to get away with it, read his posts, on nearly every thread he takes part he is abusive and aggressive, disrupts threads left right and centre and he his allowed to get away with it time and again, always trying to take the moral high ground on every issue, nasty individual

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I take your points Parky and of course a certain amount of success ensures a steady crowd. I can't, however see the day when any of the three clubs from the rhubarb triangle would ever suffer the demise of either Hunslet or Bramley. By the way, when did Rovers average crowds of 800? Not during my lifetime.

Terry, I don't like the situation any more than you or Keighley, but facts have to be faced, facts have to be the ground rock of any sensible debate as much as it may pain us. If we can't face them it's unfair to personally attack someone like Keighley did.

In 2006 Rovers averaged 1069 fans and had a number of crowds they could only count in the hundreds. Swinton, Crusaders and Skolars saw the low crowds around the 800 mark.

As it was the club rose again thankfully. So did HKR but there's no argument against the idea that if they had not been rescued and had continued a miserable existence in CC1 they may not have seen crowds dip further and debts stack up.

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Just dont reply to him Terry he is the sole reason people have stopped using this forum in droves, over 36000 post of utter rubbish, is why people use facebook, we will be safe from him on there he will never use it. Because he wont be saved by moderators on there and people will tell him what he is and the tird and the Clown will be tame compared. Its a shame 1 man can ruin peoples enjoyment but there you have it and all the time with the picture of an x Rovers great, sadly the moderators have allowed him to get away with it, read his posts, on nearly every thread he takes part he is abusive and aggressive, disrupts threads left right and centre and he his allowed to get away with it time and again, always trying to take the moral high ground on every issue, nasty individual

Or is it just that his views don't fit in with yours ? :huh:

Just asking .....

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Terry, I don't like the situation any more than you or Keighley, but facts have to be faced, facts have to be the ground rock of any sensible debate as much as it may pain us. If we can't face them it's unfair to personally attack someone like Keighley did.

In 2006 Rovers averaged 1069 fans and had a number of crowds they could only count in the hundreds. Swinton, Crusaders and Skolars saw the low crowds around the 800 mark.

As it was the club rose again thankfully. So did HKR but there's no argument against the idea that if they had not been rescued and had continued a miserable existence in CC1 they may not have seen crowds dip further and debts stack up.

Point taken Parky although on the few occasions when Rovers were relegated from the top flight the club was always strong enough to bounce back immediately. 2006 was the club's lowest point in all the years I've supported them and their drop for the first time ever to the basement third tier of pro RL was potentially disastrous, I agree. 1069 would probably have been higher than any other member of that division I would guess?

Talking about facts by the way, you didn't answer my point regarding the comment you made that Rovers weren't a particularly entertaining attraction. Presumably then, you agree with me that, as a sporting entity, their record of achievement over the past three years is unrivalled in any sport at any level?

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Whilst you can use the Leeds city example for the decline scenario when one team dominates, it must be qualified. Bramley had a decent little ground with a "only for sports" clause in the deed of gift and that was circumvented and the ground disposed of.

These circumstances did not exist in the Calder area.

Indeed Bramley had their own ground and developed it in 1966 into a more modern stadia. It was to be their saviour and take them up the league.

But in 1973 the clubs voted to break into two divisions. As a Bramley director said to me "That eventually killed us, it removed our plum fixtures like Leeds, Wakefield and Bradford. These fixtures paid the bills".

Bramley however started IN that first division coming 12th. and they won the floodlit trophy too. Soon after they slipped to relegation and the only way was down, despite getting back in at one point.

Under new Directors I still got the same candid comments that the club could not survive in the second division. A simple thing like a ball converted over the posts, over the social club and down the Aston's and lost was £30 Ronnie Teeman could not afford. By 1995 they were near the bottom of the league on crowds of 800.......

The self same crowds Featherstone were dropping to in 2006......

The sort of crowds Hull.K.R. were heading for at one point.

The board gave it up. It was not going to work playing losing Championship Rugby and the club tried to survive playing at Headingley as Leeds "A" team where Barrie Mac, most famously made a comeback from injury.

Nobody came in to rescue the club. There was no Mark Campbell, there was no Neil Hudgell either for Bramley and in those circumstances the only way was down.....and out.

To argue that these circumstances could not exist in the Calder area like you argue, or to state like Terry he could not see the same thing happening is to fly in the face of the facts and realities.

How would Featherstone have done without Campbell and without their plum fixtures of Wakefield and Cas? this last six years.

How would Hull.K.R. have done without Hudgell this last six years??

Don't put your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand and sing la la la la la. Deal with the debate. You want to be in it so come on, deal with it.

The demise of any RL club is monetary, and when things get too much, which is usually when nobody wants to prop the club up anymore with their fat wallets all that remains is the asset of the ground.

You seem to want to dream up special and different scenarios in Leeds because you will not face facts and reality.

Hunslet were down to absolutely skint, near the bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

Bramley were down to absolutely skint, near the bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

Swinton were down to absolutely skint, near the bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

York were down to absolutely skint, near the bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

Rochdale were down to absolutely skint, near bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

Oldham were down to absolutely skint, near bottom of the league and few fans BEFORE they sold of their only assett - Land.

And what of keighley??

In 1987 they had only 445 fans and were SKINT don't you remember they had to sell the training pitch off?? Do you not recall them selling off the Cricket field to keighley CC?? Don't you recall them selling off the whole darn ground to the CO-OP?

Luckily :lol: they were rescued again for their Cougarmania stint in which they again blew up a massive financial bubble and "pop" it went again. I find it astounding that you cannot recognise that but there for the grace of god (or another local businessman to try to turn back the tide) could go many of our great clubs including ones currently at the top of the Championship or Superleague.

This is always your argument that Oldham once won three major trophies in 1957, Hunslet once won all four cups, and so these fine clubs can do so again.

NO THEY CANNOT unless they have enough fans, enough quality players and money of their own, which they don't AND get in on sharing the SKY money. 1973 was the date the big clubs first stuffed the small clubs for their own survival and advancement. 1995 was the date the big clubs again put the boot in along with SKY to stuff them further arranging heavy cash subsidies for an elite and nothing for the rest.

Now back to the OP. Tieing up CC clubs to SL clubs as junior partners may well be the third and final nail in the coffin of several more clubs

Let me get it on record for you. I was NOT THERE at the 1973 vote. I was NOT THERE at the SKY meetings, I have had NOTHING to do with all these events. Let me put it in a nutshell for you - having a go at me because you don't like the facts isn't going to change them ;) now try and deal with them.

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36000 post of utter rubbish,

Tired Clown, abusive and aggressive, disrupts threads, nasty individual

I find him articulate, intelligent, well versed in the history of the game, well mannered and a delight to debate with.

Jeez I must have missed something here???

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1. Point taken Parky although on the few occasions when Rovers were relegated from the top flight the club was always strong enough to bounce back immediately. 2006 was the club's lowest point in all the years I've supported them and their drop for the first time ever to the basement third tier of pro RL was potentially disastrous, I agree. 1069 would probably have been higher than any other member of that division I would guess?

2. Talking about facts by the way, you didn't answer my point regarding the comment you made that Rovers weren't a particularly entertaining attraction. Presumably then, you agree with me that, as a sporting entity, their record of achievement over the past three years is unrivalled in any sport at any level?

1. Terry - Hunslet were at Wembley 1965 and Bradford were in the Championship Final 1952. It took these big clubs at the time only 8 and 12 years respectively to drop from heroes to zeros and CLOSURE.

There are two ways clubs have come back from the dead. One is through private investment, the other is through volunteers working as a co-operative. The conditions for the latter are often too dire and so we see how Bramley eventually went and others like Hunslet, York, Rochdale & Swinton have had to sell their souls to an SL club. Which puts this post on topic.

No championship club can survive a downward spiral unless they find investment. This may be someone stepping in with money either before or after administration. Both the Rovers clubs were on a downward spiral of that there was no doubt. In this game where winning gets you fans and losing loses you fans you cannot stand still. The money does not come from the gates alone as you know, and as has been the case forever and always will be. When we closed in 1973 we re-opened and the money came from Jerry Mason. We ended up back in the big time in 1977, Jerry left and we ended up 30th in the RFL.

Then Graham Liles came in and he took us to Superleague. Graham left and we entered a third major spiral of decline. However nobody stepped in to save us. Nobody wanted to buy a Championship club going nowhere as SL had shut the door. In came the volunteers, but as Blackpool Hawk stated on here they needed money and had none. So they sold their soul to Leeds.

NO CLUB is immune from this process as the record clearly shows. Featherstone have two buffers. One is they still have people prepared to invest, the second is they have managed to avoid selling the Land asset. This makes them of course as you say stronger than most and more capable of survival. However as Griff points out your last three accounts show losses. The investment to date is enough to see you achieve at the top of CC and as we agreed a few weeks ago you may need Mr. Nahaboos money to kick on in Superleague. After that you need bums on seats, or a guaranteed rich man permanently in place.

If either fails the spiral of decline will be there and NO CLUB is immune from it.

If Rovers don't get in SL which will be a crime, will things stay the same for you?

2. Fantastic club Fev, highly entertaining and manfully swimming against the tide. They deserve a 3 years shot in SL 2015 to 2018 WITHOUT having to meet 2500 crowds. All I meant Terry was that any big companies who fancy a box at a Rugby League game are far more likely to want to go to somewhere like Newmarket (if it ever got built). Many corporates and their staff have no great interest in the clubs and so if there's a choice they mainly want to go to a Superleague match. Compare the corporate trade in Superleague with that in the Championship. No offence....

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1. Terry - Hunslet were at Wembley 1965 and Bradford were in the Championship Final 1952. It took these big clubs at the time only 8 and 12 years respectively to drop from heroes to zeros and CLOSURE.

There are two ways clubs have come back from the dead. One is through private investment, the other is through volunteers working as a co-operative. The conditions for the latter are often too dire and so we see how Bramley eventually went and others like Hunslet, York, Rochdale & Swinton have had to sell their souls to an SL club. Which puts this post on topic.

No championship club can survive a downward spiral unless they find investment. This may be someone stepping in with money either before or after administration. Both the Rovers clubs were on a downward spiral of that there was no doubt. In this game where winning gets you fans and losing loses you fans you cannot stand still. The money does not come from the gates alone as you know, and as has been the case forever and always will be. When we closed in 1973 we re-opened and the money came from Jerry Mason. We ended up back in the big time in 1977, Jerry left and we ended up 30th in the RFL.

Then Graham Liles came in and he took us to Superleague. Graham left and we entered a third major spiral of decline. However nobody stepped in to save us. Nobody wanted to buy a Championship club going nowhere as SL had shut the door. In came the volunteers, but as Blackpool Hawk stated on here they needed money and had none. So they sold their soul to Leeds.

NO CLUB is immune from this process as the record clearly shows. Featherstone have two buffers. One is they still have people prepared to invest, the second is they have managed to avoid selling the Land asset. This makes them of course as you say stronger than most and more capable of survival. However as Griff points out your last three accounts show losses. The investment to date is enough to see you achieve at the top of CC and as we agreed a few weeks ago you may need Mr. Nahaboos money to kick on in Superleague. After that you need bums on seats, or a guaranteed rich man permanently in place.

If either fails the spiral of decline will be there and NO CLUB is immune from it.

If Rovers don't get in SL which will be a crime, will things stay the same for you?

2. Fantastic club Fev, highly entertaining and manfully swimming against the tide. They deserve a 3 years shot in SL 2015 to 2018 WITHOUT having to meet 2500 crowds. All I meant Terry was that any big companies who fancy a box at a Rugby League game are far more likely to want to go to somewhere like Newmarket (if it ever got built). Many corporates and their staff have no great interest in the clubs and so if there's a choice they mainly want to go to a Superleague match. Compare the corporate trade in Superleague with that in the Championship. No offence....

No offence taken Parky, as always. Thanks for your response, I respect your opinions. It's nice to be able to debate without the 'likes of you', 'too dim' and the 'Sid and Doris Bonkers' innuendo. No need for it and hardly articulate nor intelligent.

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No offence taken Parky, as always. Thanks for your response, I respect your opinions. It's nice to be able to debate without the 'likes of you', 'too dim' and the 'Sid and Doris Bonkers' innuendo. No need for it and hardly articulate nor intelligent.

well what do you expect when you have people calling you a clown and a ###### in a swimming poo(even using a picture of one as aan avatar)l: I don't recall you objecting to that- and that's before we get to the abusive personal messages from Lowfield. I've taken that garbage from -yes the likes of them for years.

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well what do you expect when you have people calling you a clown and a ###### in a swimming poo(even using a picture of one as aan avatar)l: I don't recall you objecting to that- and that's before we get to the abusive personal messages from Lowfield. I've taken that garbage from -yes the likes of them for years.

I'm not sure why. You seem to make some very valid points.

Folk are weird.

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I'm not sure why. You seem to make some very valid points.

Folk are weird.

Well I for one have hurled no abuse at anyone so I don't expect it to come back in my direction. What others may have said to CW is nothing to do with me and I don't care to get dragged into it.

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Well I for one have hurled no abuse at anyone so I don't expect it to come back in my direction. What others may have said to CW is nothing to do with me and I don't care to get dragged into it.

I'm not saying you were old bean. :)

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