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manchester rugby club 1960 - not a merger thread

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Leeds City did not go bust,in fact they were developing into a very good side,but they were made into a scape goat they did what a lot of Association football clubs did in wwI made illegal payments to guest players,and were expelled from the league.That is one of the explanations why some Leeds united supporters call man utd by that four letter word

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Hunslet A.F.C. pre-dated Leeds City by 27 years.

Fair enough but were they in the Football League?

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Fair enough but were they in the Football League?

There was no football league when they were founded, and they were playing in enclosed grounds, taking gate money and paying players long before Liverpool and Manchester United, who weren't in the football league either until after 1890 and 1900. so what relevance does that have I don't know, unless we have to shift the goal posts (geddit :lol: ) so I can be proved "wrong".

Soccer in Leeds had a very strong rugby game to contend with first, that's what hampered it's development, but it won through to dominate Rugby massively.

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There was no football league when they were founded, and they were playing in enclosed grounds, taking gate money and paying players long before Liverpool and Manchester United, who weren't in the football league either until after 1890 and 1900. so what relevance does that have I don't know, unless we have to shift the goal posts (geddit :lol: ) so I can be proved "wrong".

Soccer in Leeds had a very strong rugby game to contend with first, that's what hampered it's development, but it won through to dominate Rugby massively.

I think you were making a point for the sake of it. Hunslet AFC, whose existence I had never heard of, predated Leeds City. I do not deny it. The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.

I also have no dispute that Soccer in Leeds is a bigger game than Rugby League even though the Leeds United team is down in the lower leagues. Their crowds are significantly bigger than those at Headingley.

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Yes - Workington RUFC play in black and white.

From the Workington website

"Rugby Union had League competitions in the 1890s - went over to the new governing body in 1898. It was around this time that the Club acquired its nickname, the Zebras.

The Club have always played in black and white, originally in vertical stripes but later in horizontal hoops and, so the story goes, a group of soldiers returned from the Boer War, and not impressed by the Team's play that day, described them as running around like a herd of Zebras. The name stuck."

Want some weird nicknames or club names? Come to Holland.

I have coached " The Bassets" a union club from Sassenheim who's name comes from the fact one of the founders owned a Basset hound and while deciding on a club name the dog walked across the bar and it was decided the Bassets it was.

RC The Hookers is another club I coached...gets loads of hits on its website...amazing how many people search for Hookers on the internet.

Nothing to do with the number 2 or ladies of the night but the club are based in Hoek van Holland (Hook of Holland).

RC The Smugglers,RC Wild Rovers,Pink Panthers,Big Stones,Scrumboks,Oysters,Dukes,Ducks,Bokkerijders, Oblix,Wallebys,The Pickwick Players....the list of strange names ,with no indication of the town or city they represent, is wide spread in the Netherlands and 95% of these clubs where started by ex pats in the mid 70's/early 80's.!!!!!

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I think you were making a point for the sake of it. Hunslet AFC, whose existence I had never heard of, predated Leeds City. I do not deny it. The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.

I also have no dispute that Soccer in Leeds is a bigger game than Rugby League even though the Leeds United team is down in the lower leagues. Their crowds are significantly bigger than those at Headingley.

Yes they are,although the the last two crowds at E R have been just over 20,000 and 17,700

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Hull FC also merged with a side called "White Star" in their early days, I think they had something to do with shipping. Edit: IIRC White Star were a shipping company.

Temperance, SHamrocks and Wednesday, All-Blacks are pretty obvious.

Branch Locos were presumably a works side. Islanders and Maoris a curiousity.

I like your reasoning but I think it unlikely that there was any connection between the White Star Line and the Hull White Star club. The White Star Line was based in Liverpool. They had no presence in Hull that I'm aware of.

There's a good reason you'll have heard of the White Star Line though. Titanic was one of theirs.

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The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds.

They did indeed. And they had a tactic to stop the spread of rugby by ensuring clubs immediately outside the heartlands did not convert (or converted back) - thus preventing an organic national spread of the game.

If you want to understand why rugby league existed only in the heartlands don't look to rugby union, look to professional soccer.

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The point I was making was that the Football League made a conscious decision to target Rugby league in its strongholds in Yorkshire and encouraged Manningham to join their league and encouraged Leeds City to challenge Rugby's dominance in Leeds. They did not seek out the older Hunslet AFC to support this initiative.

I don't recognise such an initiative?? Where do you get that from??

The commitee of Hunslet AFC were "sought out" to support the initiative, the club was not actively playing at the time but it was still in existence, and it was a major foundation stone in Leeds City's entry to the FL.

Do your research or you get things completely wrong.

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I don't recognise such an initiative?? Where do you get that from??

The commitee of Hunslet AFC were "sought out" to support the initiative, the club was not actively playing at the time but it was still in existence, and it was a major foundation stone in Leeds City's entry to the FL.

Do your research or you get things completely wrong.

Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era. I accept your points about Hunslet AFC. I don't know where you think I am but I am not surrounded by reference books in some huge library. Neither am I going to surf the net for hours to be scientifically correct on every little thing. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. Mostly I am just relying on things I have read and my often imperfect memory. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

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Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era. I accept your points about Hunslet AFC. I don't know where you think I am but I am not surrounded by reference books in some huge library. Neither am I going to surf the net for hours to be scientifically correct on every little thing. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. Mostly I am just relying on things I have read and my often imperfect memory. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

From "THE ELECTION OF CLUBS TO THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE 1899 TO 1939" by Matthew Taylor and John Coyles of de Monfort University

"The election system assisted the Football League in expanding into hitherto-untouched areas of England and Wales, and while crowds and finance were of great significance, some attention should be given to strategic factors. In the 1900s there is some evidence that the League, either at Management Committee level, or through the collective wishes of the clubs, made a conscious effort to expand into areas previously dominated by professional rugby. Graham Williams has referred to the `aggressive recruitment' of clubs from rugby strongholds, while Simon Inglis suggested that by 1903 the League had begun plotting `the colonisation of England at the expense of every other rival organisation in both football and rugby'.79 These comments appear to be supported by the bare facts: Bradford City (1903), Leeds City and Hull City (1905), Oldham Athletic and Bradford Park Avenue (1907) and Huddersfield Town (1910) all came into the Football League from towns with deep rugby traditions. The two Bradford clubs, and Leeds City, were formed from previous members of the Northern Union, while the others had strong rival Northern Union clubs. Moreover, in each club's application to join the League, much was made of the local competition between the codes. Bradford Park Avenue's representative, for example, supported his claim by declaring that his club's decision to take up soccer `meant the extinction of Northern Unionism... in Yorkshire'.80

Parksider, A little bit of research turned up the above. It would appear that there was, as I thought, a co ordinated strategy to challenge RL in its heartlands, coupled with a parallel strategy of expanding into large Towns and Cities. The fact that they also approached Hunslet AFC to assist with Leeds Cities entry and foundation would not seem to detract from the fact that soccer planned tp break the Northern Union monoploy and I guess it worked out well.

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Jeez. After 7 pages this thread has actually turned interesting. I never knew about the FL deliberately tragetting NU strongholds, but when you think about it, it's logical. They were far better organised and forward thinking that the RFU, and that logically means that soccer had more to do with RL's geographical confinement than Union. If their own strongholds were under attack, any early expansion thoughts of the NU would have been shelved in favour of consolidation.

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1. I will let you do all that and gleefully correct me when I am wrong. You can give me a 3 out of 10 if you like.

2. Well, what you have written there would seem to support my point. City were formed and entered into the Football League to challenge Leeds, Hunslet, Bramley and any other RL team in the Rugby dominated City of that era.

1. Glee is good. 2 out of 10 :lol:

2. I'd urge you to look at the attempts to get soccer going against a background of failings in the Rugby game at the time post the 1896 split.

I have references to Rugby people actually getting fed up and wanting to try soccer instead.

I'd look at the two Bradford clubs who changed over. I don't think they were enticed, I think they may have changed because they were fed up with Rugby......

Any other views would be welcome. Where's Steve May/Padge etc....

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Jeez. After 7 pages this thread has actually turned interesting. I never knew about the FL deliberately tragetting NU strongholds, but when you think about it, it's logical. They were far better organised and forward thinking that the RFU, and that logically means that soccer had more to do with RL's geographical confinement than Union. If their own strongholds were under attack, any early expansion thoughts of the NU would have been shelved in favour of consolidation.

When Hunslet AFC won the west yorkshire cup at Manninghams NU ground in 1895 their chairman spoke about the good relations between the two games.

What pushed clubs and fans and players more to soccer from Northern Union was the fact that soccer was becoming a national game and Northern Union was becoming more and more regional, there was a heavy drift of interest towards soccer because of that.

The NU consolidated that's true, then switched to a big expansion policy into Wales.

It's worth reading all this up...Fascinating...

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When Hunslet AFC won the west yorkshire cup at Manninghams NU ground in 1895 their chairman spoke about the good relations between the two games.

What pushed clubs and fans and players more to soccer from Northern Union was the fact that soccer was becoming a national game and Northern Union was becoming more and more regional, there was a heavy drift of interest towards soccer because of that.

The NU consolidated that's true, then switched to a big expansion policy into Wales.

It's worth reading all this up...Fascinating...

Right, but soccer can only have gone national as a result of a planned expansion programme. What was the RFU and the NU doing while soccer was doing this? Was the split especially ill-timed in terms of gaining footholds in new territory for all codes?

The NU heading to Wales seemed to happen just before WW1. Already a bit late perhaps? Or just badly done? Socio-economic factors would suggest the area was ripe for NU expansion.

Some say soccer is just the easier game to play & follow and that's why it won in the end, regardless of any initiatives undertaken by governing bodies.

Other than Tony Collins and Trevor Delaney, where would I start reading on this?

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1. Right, but soccer can only have gone national as a result of a planned expansion programme. What was the RFU and the NU doing while soccer was doing this? Was the split especially ill-timed in terms of gaining footholds in new territory for all codes?

2. The NU heading to Wales seemed to happen just before WW1. Already a bit late perhaps? Or just badly done? Socio-economic factors would suggest the area was ripe for NU expansion.

3. Some say soccer is just the easier game to play & follow and that's why it won in the end, regardless of any initiatives undertaken by governing bodies.

4, Other than Tony Collins and Trevor Delaney, where would I start reading on this?

1. No, the round ball game played to various rules e.g. London, Nottingham and sheffield rules. The rules being codified into one game brought several strong regions together, and thus a national game was produced. This enabled clubs to travel farther afield for better fixtures and more money, money, money and money. I don't think there was planned expansion of the "sport" just a nationwide ambition to get on the national professional game of soccer bandwagon.

2. Yes Wales and the north of England were soul mates but travelling costs were ruinous of the project and TBH I think those that stayed in the NU game were largely parochial people (as they often are today - CRUSADERS OUT!!! LONDON OUT!!!)and were not happy with long range expansion.

3. I have always said that Mark. Rugby was OK on the playing fields of the public schools but in the industrial cities it was a hard game to play. Even today soccer rules because it's fundamentally easier to play. Many lads who are in two minds I have worked with in junior clubs are in doubt regarding the physical element of Rugby.

4. Jeez where do I start Mark?? There was an explosion of RL books in the 1980's and beyond the club histories came histories like those on the split from Collins and Delaney, but also look at histories of soccer and RU, there's a great history of RL in wales from London League Publications etc etc (ANY HELP FOR MARK HERE ANYONE) the problem is most books are a bit "narrow" they are about soccer or about RL or about RU so it is hard to be able to recommend any books that deal with the historical relationship between the three codes.

I know how that happened in Leeds because I went to the library and read it all up from newspapers at the time, but a nationwide study is something I have not seen and to be frank would be an incredible book that maybe is yet to be written.

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1. But the Football league was formed by more or less exclusively NW clubs. They very slowly added the midlands and the first London clubs started joining when the league was 15 years old. Im not sure the badwagon rolled so quickly or easily as you seem to suggest.

2. So, our own incomptence then?

3. Yes.

4. I've read plenty on individual histories and from LLP. I was thinking specifically of publications that cover the development of all codes from 1880 to WW1 which was the key era.

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The football league was formed by the director of Aston Villa. Six of the 12 clubs were Lancastrian but most of the rest were midlands.

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The football league was formed by the director of Aston Villa. Six of the 12 clubs were Lancastrian but most of the rest were midlands.

People confuse the football association (1863) with the football league (1888) the former was formed in the main by London clubs and the latter more or less as you say.

The founder clubs of the Football League were: Aston Villa, Blackburn, Bolton, Preston, West Bromwich, Everton, Burnley, Accrington, Wolverhampton, Notts County, Derby County and Stoke.

The FA, an organisation founded by mainly London and other Southern clubs struggled to get the influential Sheffield association of football clubs, who had been operating their own rules since 1857, on board until the late 1870s. It was the formation of an International Board (are you listening RFL, ARL etc.) which took control of the rules of the game that allowed the sport to unify and flourish.

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I think, as the piece I quoted states, the Football League agressively expanded into Yorkshire as a definitive policy. They were aided in this by the fast, exciting spectacle that was Soccer when compared to our game which was still basically Rugby Union.

The success of the soccer invasion of our heartlands led to the huge rule changes which produced our modern game in an effort to make the game more open and attractive to counteract the attractions of the fast moving invader. Thus it was in he early 1900 s that we had the play the ball rule, the reduction of the number of players to 13 which tfransformed our game to the fast attack minded spectacle that it is. These changes and the exctitng arrival of the Old Gold touring team to play our best under these rules halted the advance of Soccer and probably saved the game from extinction but we have never, to this day, recovered the dominant position we held in Yokshire sport prior to the soccer expansion movement.

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Bradford switching to soccer after winning the championship in 1906 was the final catalyst to 13 a side and the play the ball.

Poetic justice that as Bradford Park Avenue they enjoyed little success and deeply ironic that they were in the frame to save the Bulls earlier this year.

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I remember going to a film show at Headingley featuring those NU footages that were discovered .Many of you will have also seen them too.Someone in the audience commented on how athletic the players looked,and the presenter's one of them a female historian and I think Tony Collins,they explained that at that time the Rugby /NU players were the sporting elete .They said they had some footage of Association footballers in the area looked like regular tap room drinkers at the side of the rugby players

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1. Glee is good. 2 out of 10 :lol:

2. I'd urge you to look at the attempts to get soccer going against a background of failings in the Rugby game at the time post the 1896 split.

I have references to Rugby people actually getting fed up and wanting to try soccer instead.

I'd look at the two Bradford clubs who changed over. I don't think they were enticed, I think they may have changed because they were fed up with Rugby......

Any other views would be welcome. Where's Steve May/Padge etc....

I know Braford pa were not fed up with Rugby. They actually wanted to rejoin the RFU. The volte face to soccer to me suggests inducements or approaches from the Football League.

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Now they are in a lower division with more cash crises in the recent past

Dirty Leeds, Filthy Rich Wrong.gif

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