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barnyia

French juniors beat the aussies

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Yes, there need to be RFL rules that allow kids from outside the service areas of SL clubs to go on to play SL.

At the moment, there would seem to be a lot of talent going to waste.

How does the anomaly you speak of affect all those Cumbria kids in the U18 side Solly?

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Here you go, here's the list with the nearest SL club for each of the lads and who is to say they won't go there.

However i think Warrington have tied up west cumbria as their area.

No doubt Superleague Wigan and Warrington will continue to inspire kids in Cumbria to play Rugby league.....

THAT was the point.

No doubt they will sign for SL clubs but the area from which they hail and where they learned their rugby are CC team areas and putting the nearest SL team by their names will not change that, so it seems to me that it would benefit the RFL to put some money into the junior games on these areas.No, your point was that verfy few if any decent playhers emanate from non SL towns. You are plainly wrong.

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What do you mean by "significant juniors" why don't you or Terry make a clear point?

Whilst your both falling over yourself to prove me wrong rather than make any clear or coherent point yourselves I checked with Kirkholt over the situation in Rochdale.

He says..........

"(In Rochdale) there has been a big loss of clubs over 30 years. What I would say has improved in Rochdale is junior RL. In the 80s, one or two die-hards kept plugging away with junior & youth teams but it was very haphazard. Mayfield now lead the way with the well organised Mustangs and are providing a number of players into Super League clubs".

I did my research and although I could not find any Rochdale born senior SL players, the best kids in Rochdale have started to be picked up especially by Saints.

That pretty much makes the Hornets isolated.

Your the one so keen to make the argument that the small championship clubs are important to the game in dreamworld, I'm the one doing the actual research in the real world and the structure of the modern game is well organised and resourced junior clubs across wide regions feeding the best players into Superleague clubs.

This proces has left so many championship clubs redundant in the scheme of things that ten of them have decided to formally become part of that process.

That leaves Keighley and Featherstone swimming against the tide, a very fair analysis don't you think?

Equally and back to the OP two french SL clubs will hopefully inspire whole swathes of southern France into taking RK up and taking it more seriously......

You have got yourself so tied up in knots that you are now defeating your own original argument.

The fact that Rochdale is now producing a fair amount of juniors is the point you strenuosly argued against, namely that such areas did nor produce any decent juniors. That they are signing for St Helens is irrelevant to the point about the geographical location of their taking up the game being in Rochdale, a very minor CC1 area for many years.

The point of this thread was NOT about the CC1 and CC clubs being important ( That;'s another subject) but about the fact that non SL areas produced no or minimal numbers of juniors. Note, I am not saying that SL towns and cities do not produce juniors, they clearly do, I am saying that so do areas other than SL twons.

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All very well and all very very far from the point.

Quality amateur clubs and Superleague professional clubs conspire together to inspire kids to play the game.

Too much importance is given to Championship clubs, often to the ridiculous point of you saying the death of these clubs will be the death of Rugby League, and valuable money has to be spent on them.

I found that absurd.......

As it is most won't die. They will submit to reality and become SL "A" teams.

That was the point......

Care to engage in it.............

That was NOT the point at all. You must work for the RFL in the goalpost moving department. The point WAS that non SL area produced no or very few players from the jujnior games in their areas going all the way back to your claim that the French U19 success was soley because of the Catalansd Dragons.

I have never in my life ever said that top junior players only come from SL areas.

What a stupid thing to try to pin on me.

I did the research earlier this year that you rudely choose to ignore and outlined the fact that MOST professional players come from areas that have Superleague clubs in that area.

I could not find a current SL player in the starting 17 of an SL club who came from Batley or Keighley, I found one from York and one from Doncaster.

That's all on record but you choose to ignore everything that does not suit you.

What is YOUR POINT????

Or don't you have one? Are you now playing the Northern Sol of trying to trip me up??

Go back to post#31 and let me have your answer....

Post # 30 by you and I quote

"By far and away young pro players come from area that are centred on SL clubs" and " Featherstone area is centred on two SL clubs" ( one of whom has been designated for the chop by most SL lovers). So what is centred on Feathersone. Are you saying that the Feathersone NCL team is centred on Wakefield?

So I am not pinning anything on you. That's your point of argument written by you and pushed relentlessly on these forums.

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How does the anomaly you speak of affect all those Cumbria kids in the U18 side Solly?

They have the talent or they would not be in the under-18 side. You would expect at least some of them to "make it" in SL. I think it is a case of merely watching what happens to them. How many will make the grade and how many will give up the game despite having the talent.

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Your point was that very few if any decent players emanate from non SL towns. You are plainly wrong.

For the umpteenth time you silly man the point was clearly made and backed by my research into the origins of the players who made it into the top 17's of the Superleague clubs as established professionals. I put it up on here but clearly you wish to ignore it.

There was 22 from Leeds, 20 from Wigan, 18 from Saints, 20 from Hull etc

None from Batley, none from Keighley, None from Rochdale, one from York, One from Donny etc.

Can't you see how posting the origins of an under 18's England side NONE OF WHOM HAVE GOT ANYWHERE NEAR BEING FULL TIME PROFESSIONALS IN THE SL TOP 17'S......

DOESN'T DISPROVE MY POINT ONE LITTLE BIT DOES IT :lol: :lol: :lol:

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They have the talent or they would not be in the under-18 side. You would expect at least some of them to "make it" in SL. I think it is a case of merely watching what happens to them. How many will make the grade and how many will give up the game despite having the talent.

Yes I see. However when discussing the players who may slip the net the examples always come back to Peacock and Hardaker. I wonder if professional quality talent being missed is the exception rather than the rule?

As you say it would be good to follow the pathways of players.

I once had a look at the Colts rep teams from the 1980's. There were many names in there who didn't make pro..

1981 GB Colts....

Whelan, Jones, Marchant, Wardle, Lazenby, Conway, Johnson, sykes, O'Toole, crookes, Platt, Proctor, Fleming, Howard, Beall, England........

Six made it to being first division regulars, so ten dropped from being that years elite to the championship or oblivion....

Not sure what that says though!!!

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For the umpteenth time you silly man the point was clearly made and backed by my research into the origins of the players who made it into the top 17's of the Superleague clubs as established professionals. I put it up on here but clearly you wish to ignore it.

There was 22 from Leeds, 20 from Wigan, 18 from Saints, 20 from Hull etc

None from Batley, none from Keighley, None from Rochdale, one from York, One from Donny etc.

Can't you see how posting the origins of an under 18's England side NONE OF WHOM HAVE GOT ANYWHERE NEAR BEING FULL TIME PROFESSIONALS IN THE SL TOP 17'S......

DOESN'T DISPROVE MY POINT ONE LITTLE BIT DOES IT :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don t appreciate being called a silly man. I could say that you are a pompous opinionated buffoon with delusions of grandeur who thinks he shouldn t be challenged on his opinions but I would never say that as I dont believe in throwing insults around.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh and East London ( 40 miles from Twickenham ) and Wales amongst the 156 remaining players not accounted for? I bet there are. We know for instance that the capain of the SL Champions and England and the coach of Wales are from Oldham junior Rugby League. We know the current Leeds fullback and England player is from Featherstone junior RL. We know that an England prop at St Helens is from Greenwich, nowhere near Twickenham. How many more did you miss ?

The under 18s are just that, 17 years old,so they are clearly not at SL clubs yet. Check back in a couple of years and I will wager that 3/4 of them will be at SL clubs and some of the rest at CC clubs.I think those players will mostly definitely disprove your point.

Finally, check out post #58 kindly researched by Monsieur Barnyia. 4 out of 18 players in the French under 18 s that narrowly lost to the AIS were from Catalans/St Esteve and the rest were from the LER and others.Would you care to rethink your original post that the French are producing some top class juniors soley because of the existence of Catalans SL side. ?

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I don't appreciate being called a silly man.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh........

Take out Les Catalans. 13x17 is 221 senior first XV11 players

13 Superleague clubs produce 115 of those players locally.

16 Championship club areas have junior sides in their areas who have produced an extra 31 players for Superleague.

4 Welsh lads one from the Midlands.

And that's it for homegrown professionals. Our clubs are short of 70 professional quality players and I'll let you go figure how they make the 70 shortfall up.

The game lacks the resources in terms of money, fans and YES players and the Championship areas your always championing for Superleague hardly produce any pro's if any at all. They average two per area.

This is why it's a silly argument to say a club can simply sign players from other parts of the country. It can't work there aren't enough.

This is why the biggest Super League clubs have to have continuity and be made to develop talent and have to have as wide an area as possible to develop it from hence championship clubs are giving up autonomy and joining in the development process with SL partners.

This is why the game desperately needs development in London and Wales for the players

This is why the expectation of new CC1 clubs will be to attract young players to the game in their areas with a pathway to SL.

It's silly to post the make up of a BARLA under 18 rep side in a vain attempt to discredit what I am saying.

Please engage in the realities......

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I don t appreciate being called a silly man. I could say that you are a pompous opinionated buffoon with delusions of grandeur who thinks he shouldn t be challenged on his opinions but I would never say that as I dont believe in throwing insults around.

14 x 17 = 238 players and you have accounted for 82 of them. Are there no players from Oldham, Cumbria, Dewsbury, Hunslet, Featherstone, Haifax, Leigh and East London ( 40 miles from Twickenham ) and Wales amongst the 156 remaining players not accounted for? I bet there are. We know for instance that the capain of the SL Champions and England and the coach of Wales are from Oldham junior Rugby League. We know the current Leeds fullback and England player is from Featherstone junior RL. We know that an England prop at St Helens is from Greenwich, nowhere near Twickenham. How many more did you miss ?

The under 18s are just that, 17 years old,so they are clearly not at SL clubs yet. Check back in a couple of years and I will wager that 3/4 of them will be at SL clubs and some of the rest at CC clubs.I think those players will mostly definitely disprove your point.

Finally, check out post #58 kindly researched by Monsieur Barnyia. 4 out of 18 players in the French under 18 s that narrowly lost to the AIS were from Catalans/St Esteve and the rest were from the LER and others.Would you care to rethink your original post that the French are producing some top class juniors soley because of the existence of Catalans SL side. ?

'Monsieur Barnyia'.......lmfao!!!

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Monsieur Barnyia was mentioned in the local paper l'independent here yesterday.

Fortunately the reporter managed to mangle his name so completely his anonymity remains intact.

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Monsieur Barnyia was mentioned in the local paper l'independent here yesterday.

Fortunately the reporter managed to mangle his name so completely his anonymity remains intact.

Missed yesterdays paper tim was working in Beziers where rugby league is unheard of!

Somebody at the independent is on a wind up and keep putting us as a rugby union team!

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Take out Les Catalans. 13x17 is 221 senior first XV11 players

13 Superleague clubs produce 115 of those players locally.

16 Championship club areas have junior sides in their areas who have produced an extra 31 players for Superleague.

4 Welsh lads one from the Midlands.

And that's it for homegrown professionals. Our clubs are short of 70 professional quality players and I'll let you go figure how they make the 70 shortfall up.

The game lacks the resources in terms of money, fans and YES players and the Championship areas your always championing for Superleague hardly produce any pro's if any at all. They average two per area.

This is why it's a silly argument to say a club can simply sign players from other parts of the country. It can't work there aren't enough.

This is why the biggest Super League clubs have to have continuity and be made to develop talent and have to have as wide an area as possible to develop it from hence championship clubs are giving up autonomy and joining in the development process with SL partners.

This is why the game desperately needs development in London and Wales for the players

This is why the expectation of new CC1 clubs will be to attract young players to the game in their areas with a pathway to SL.

It's silly to post the make up of a BARLA under 18 rep side in a vain attempt to discredit what I am saying.

Please engage in the realities......

The point was about the numbers of players produced from non SL areas not soley championship clubs areas so 31 + 4 from Wales plus 1 from the midlands + 36, which is roughly a third as many as produced in the SL areas, so hardly an insignificant number is it. Remember you are claiming insignificant numbers from other than SL areas?

SL clubs are going into partnerships to save money on player development, nothing more, nothing less. They are in fact retarding development by jettisoning all but the players farmed out to

Championship clubs. It's about money or the saving of it. It's about developing players by the back door route by farming them out to CC clubs so that it costs them less.

It sounds like the expansion of CC1 has been designed to be a farm system for SL clubs the way you couch it. Everything about expanding the game to the whole country is just so a production line of players for the ring fenced Northern SL clubs can be facilitated. Well that's really progress, isn't it. No chance of any of these expansion clubs ever being considered as possible SL clubs then. Just keep them poor and lowly to produce players for the elite. Some expansion strategy that is.

The non SL area makeup of the Barla u 18s and the non Catalans makeup of the French U 18s is very relevant to this discussion of the geographical spread of SL players. All players start off at amateur junior clubs and the best are picked for their national teams and the best of them end up as SL players. Judging from the Barla team and the French juniors, I would say that either your research was an anomaly and the sample you used to get your results is not representative of year on year origins of SL player production or the amateur clubs in the non SL areas have improved and are now producing significantly more high level players than before.

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Missed yesterdays paper tim was working in Beziers where rugby league is unheard of!

Somebody at the independent is on a wind up and keep putting us as a rugby union team!

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Congratulations on the win mate - one rl legend v another. Audois sends his congrats Good on yer!

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1. SL clubs are going into partnerships to save money on player development, nothing more, nothing less. They are in fact retarding development.....

2. It sounds like the expansion of CC1 has been designed to be a farm system for SL clubs the way you couch it.

3. Everything about expanding the game to the whole country is just so a production line of players for the ring fenced Northern SL clubs can be facilitated. Well that's really progress, isn't it.

4. No chance of any of these expansion clubs ever being considered as possible SL clubs then. Just keep them poor and lowly

5. To produce players for the elite. Some expansion strategy that is.

1. Struggling Championship clubs in poor stadia retard development. Nobody wants to go to watch them, the local kids don't want to play for them. Get real instead of bending everything towards your hate for SL.

2. Yes it is, it also doubles as a system for expanding the game - see point 5.

3. If as many of the resources we have can be directed into selected SL clubs then it will be progress, I'd think the game will do a million more times better with all the fans watching 14 SL clubs.

As I say Superleague attracts players and fans to the game. It's the vehicle for the success of the game.

4. Every chance of them becoming SL clubs if they get someone rich interested. Heavy investment is the only route to Superleague.

There's no "grassroots bottom up development" that's in your dreams and fantasies.

5. See 2.

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1. Struggling Championship clubs in poor stadia retard development. Nobody wants to go to watch them, the local kids don't want to play for them. Get real instead of bending everything towards your hate for SL.

2. Yes it is, it also doubles as a system for expanding the game - see point 5.

3. If as many of the resources we have can be directed into selected SL clubs then it will be progress, I'd think the game will do a million more times better with all the fans watching 14 SL clubs.

As I say Superleague attracts players and fans to the game. It's the vehicle for the success of the game.

4. Every chance of them becoming SL clubs if they get someone rich interested. Heavy investment is the only route to Superleague.

There's no "grassroots bottom up development" that's in your dreams and fantasies.

5. See 2.

Point 3 is about as depressing a comment as Ive ever read. Apart from the fact that you have now upped the top echelon from the favoured 12 to the previously denigrated 14, that is about as regressive, counter productive a policy as possible. Are you really advocating that all new clubs entering the RFL should produce players only to farm them off to SL clubs. All the welsh players, all the midlands players, all the cumbrian players, all the Hemel and Oxford and Gloucester players. Well, bully for SL and hooray for the North but you will not grow teams in essential expansion areas by sending all their talent to Wigan or Leeds. Any potential fans will soon walk away when their successful teams are constantly decimated. Expansion will be dead.

If we do not want to remain a marginalised Northern game then that is the policy to follow but I don t think a successful future is to be found by that route.

We have has this discussion before and I remain convinced that grass roots start ups are best and if successful at the lower levels then they can be transformed into top down organisations by recruiting investment.

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Point 3 is about as depressing a comment as Ive ever read. Apart from the fact that you have now upped the top echelon from the favoured 12 to the previously denigrated 14, that is about as regressive, counter productive a policy as possible. Are you really advocating that all new clubs entering the RFL should produce players only to farm them off to SL clubs. All the welsh players, all the midlands players, all the cumbrian players, all the Hemel and Oxford and Gloucester players. Well, bully for SL and hooray for the North but you will not grow teams in essential expansion areas by sending all their talent to Wigan or Leeds. Any potential fans will soon walk away when their successful teams are constantly decimated. Expansion will be dead.

If we do not want to remain a marginalised Northern game then that is the policy to follow but I don t think a successful future is to be found by that route.

We have has this discussion before and I remain convinced that grass roots start ups are best and if successful at the lower levels then they can be transformed into top down organisations by recruiting investment.

Please take a close look at Rugby Unions Guinness Premiership.

There's 12 "Elite Clubs" who have all the money and fans.

They take all the best talent off the rest of the clubs in the country.

That game has £10's of MILLIONS more to spend than ours

That game has a deep and wide infrastructure around the country

Yet if bottom club Sale go down it will be largely an M4 league.

Your ambitions for Rugby League far far outweigh what even Union can manage in reality.

Don't do me down, think about it and give me a considered reply......

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Please take a close look at Rugby Unions Guinness Premiership.

There's 12 "Elite Clubs" who have all the money and fans.

They take all the best talent off the rest of the clubs in the country.

That game has £10's of MILLIONS more to spend than ours

That game has a deep and wide infrastructure around the country

Yet if bottom club Sale go down it will be largely an M4 league.

Your ambitions for Rugby League far far outweigh what even Union can manage in reality.

Don't do me down, think about it and give me a considered reply......

Union is not making it's tier two clubs exist as feeder clubs to the Arriva premiership as you are contemplating for CC RL in your post. Rugby Union has not ring fenced its premier competiton. Rugby Union has p and r and has Leeds , Newcastle, Doncaster, Rotherham and Nottingham amongst others in it's championship division.

Rugby Union would love to have some of those teams in it's top division. Leeds for instance, a contrived merger such as you dream of for SL, would be welcomed and lauded if it could achieve Arriva premiership status. If the money lasts they will be back and, if they make a go of it, RL should worry. Newcastle will be back next season. I would hazard a guess that they would love Doncaster or Rotherham to be there also. They do not make all these potential top level teams be conveyor belts of juniors for the Saracens and Harlequins of their world.

Why do you think they tried to stop the promotion of London Welsh? In my opinion it is because they did not want to lose an outpost club in Newcastle who were relegated. They have enough home counties teams. Are Newcastle now playing on loan players from some Arriva club and expected to become their A team.? Ccertainly not?

RU have had some discussions to ring fencing their top Division a la SL. If they do, I would hazard a guess that they will increase the size and scope of the Arriva Championships by awarding licences to clubs in the North. I would be extremely surprised if they told the Northern clubs to stay at their present level, sign feeder club agreemments, and just keep on providing players for the elite, but that is what you are proposing RL does with any clubs we manage to establish in areas of the country outside our heartlands.The top tier RU clubs have to find/develop their own talent.

The top tier RL clubs should have to do the same, as they have been doing up until now. Our expansion clubs and I include Gateshead, Sheffield, the two Welsh clubs and even Doncaster in that group, as well as the newbies should be encouraged to grow and prosper and we will see if any can progress to a decent Cc level and then find financing to take the giant leap to SL status.

The game, as also RU, needs to grow to cover the whole country with as many SL clubs as possible. We should not be expanding merely for the new clubs to be brood mares to SL ambitions.I do not think any expansion teams, or any Northern CC teams will last very long following that recipe.

The RU are definitely not following that path. If we stagnate, however successful SL currently is ( and it's only a partial success), then eventually we will be overwhelmed by our very insularity.

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Just to get an idea of their strength, the AIS team beat Wales 52-12. http://www.rlef.eu.com/other/report?RLE00000463

As they should. It's David v Goliath. It just goes to show the improvment in the French though that they could run them so close at u 18s and beat then at u 19s. It bodes well for the future for the French national team if we can keep the players in RL.

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As they should. It's David v Goliath. It just goes to show the improvment in the French though that they could run them so close at u 18s and beat then at u 19s. It bodes well for the future for the French national team if we can keep the players in RL.

having a second french SL team will dramatically improve the odds on that happening

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RU have had some discussions to ring fencing their top Division a la SL. If they do, I would hazard a guess that they will increase the size and scope of the Arriva Championships by awarding licences to clubs in the North.

Oh for goodness sake what a daft idea that they will ring fence their top division only to bring clubs in and then Leeds who have no money.

I can't debate with your "guesswork".

Fact - RU is far richer than RL and yet runs a top division smaller than RL.

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Oh for goodness sake what a daft idea that they will ring fence their top division only to bring clubs in and then Leeds who have no money.

I can't debate with your "guesswork".

Fact - RU is far richer than RL and yet runs a top division smaller than RL.

RL had better hope it stays that way. They let Leeds in twice under p and r. There is nothing to say that they would not award them a franchise/licence under any future system. Since they have the money, they can afford to expand.

Not all organisations are as regressive and parochial as SL. The emperor has no clothes. Only two or three profitable stand alone clubs. Not enough cash to sustain proper player development. Proposals to reduce its membership. Refusal to set and enforce penalties for financial failure whilst demanding financial guarantees for prospective applicants. A flawed licence granting process resulting in embarassingly weak members who go belly up. SL has been a partial success but is in serious danger of hitting a financial implosion point. They will probably dump Salford in their zeal for a bigger share of the pie for the big boys and abandon a brand new stadium in the Norths largest conurbation to a RU club.

So I wrote a whole post at your request on how Union did not weaken it s club structure by making the lower tiers feeder clubs and that paragraph re ring fencing was all that caught your eye. I guess you saw an opportunity to goalpost move again seeing as t your original point was looking pretty weak.

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